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Velocity Curves

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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4 May 2005
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1 June 2005
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  1. Do any coaches out there use velocity curves with their swimmers? Is
    that the kind of data that someone can gather with today's technology?

    We've talked a bit in another thread about technique changes. One of
    the problems with technique changes is that it's difficult/impossible
    to say right away whether they represent an improvement. That's
    because the changes to a swimmer's technique will almost certainly make
    them slower in the short term. They would have to swim a number of
    weeks, or even months, to decide if any change was a good one. And who
    wants to wait that long, especially if things might be worse. I run up
    against this problem myself - I've got a fairly weak kick and rather
    "tender" left shoulder from an old rotator cuff wound. So that limits
    what I can do - I try different stuff, breath one way or the other,
    long push back, or different kick rhythms, but how do you decide which
    one is best and should be honed?

    Velocity curves would help answer that question. For example, while
    not focussing on overall speed, the different shapes of the curves
    using different technique could be compared. The ones with highest
    peak velocity may offer the best approach. Or maybe the ones with the
    least drop off in speed but lower peak velocity offer the best
    potential in the long run for sustained speed. A whole science could
    be developed there which could point swimmers in the right direction
    for their stroke, given their own physical talents and limitations.

    But it's useless without the data. I believe that video we have of
    elites training when they wear a slim white band around their waist,
    indicate a data gathering system. But I don't know anything about it,
    or how accurate it is? Does anyone else?

    Eric

  2. Quoted message said:

    I try different stuff, breath
    one way or the other, long push
    back, or different kick rhythms,
    but how do you decide which one
    is best and should be honed?

    "And I really do believe that efficiency in stroke will be found for
    all of us by simply trying to push as hard as we can."

    I applaud that you want to hone your skills, but in light of what you
    wrote before, shouldn't you just do 10 x 1500 and ice your shoulders?

  3. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Do any coaches out there use velocity curves with their swimmers? Is
    that the kind of data that someone can gather with today's technology?

    Look for the paper presented by Craig, Boomer, & Gibbons at the 3rd Swimming
    Biomechanics Symposium in Edmonton sometime in the late 70's.

    The test protocol is quite simple.

  4. Man o' Tea said:
    Quoted message said:

    I try different stuff, breath
    one way or the other, long push
    back, or different kick rhythms,
    but how do you decide which one
    is best and should be honed?

    "And I really do believe that efficiency in stroke will be found for
    all of us by simply trying to push as hard as we can."

    I applaud that you want to hone your skills, but in light of what you
    wrote before, shouldn't you just do 10 x 1500 and ice your shoulders?

    I had exactly the same thought 😉

    As often happens, I was monkeying around with my stroke in Lane 4
    today. And I thought I should really swallow my own medicine and bump
    to Lane 3 where the faster people are, and let the "law of the jungle"
    point me in the right direction.

    Well, I swam in Lane 4 and probably didn't get any faster, but I
    learned some more about swimming in the particular body that I have.
    So it was fun. I plan to start another thread and see if it generates
    any comments, because I think I've figured a few things out.

    Eric

  5. jtaylor said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Do any coaches out there use velocity curves with their swimmers?


    Is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that the kind of data that someone can gather with today's


    technology?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Look for the paper presented by Craig, Boomer, & Gibbons at the 3rd


    Swimming

    Quoted message said:

    Biomechanics Symposium in Edmonton sometime in the late 70's.

    The test protocol is quite simple.

    Your terse, smug post reminds me of myself at my worst. Why not give
    the highlights of their conclusions?

    This post not-withstanding, your contribution to the group has grown by
    leaps and bounds. You're quite knowledgeable on the history of
    swimming - thanks for sharing it.

    Eric

  6. jtaylor said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Do any coaches out there use velocity curves with their swimmers?


    Is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that the kind of data that someone can gather with today's


    technology?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Look for the paper presented by Craig, Boomer, & Gibbons at the 3rd


    Swimming

    Quoted message said:

    Biomechanics Symposium in Edmonton sometime in the late 70's.

    The test protocol is quite simple.

    Your terse, smug post reminds me of myself at my worst. Why not give
    the highlights of their conclusions?

    This post not-withstanding, your contribution to the group has grown by
    leaps and bounds. You're quite knowledgeable on the history of
    swimming - thanks for sharing it.

    Eric

  7. jtaylor said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Do any coaches out there use velocity curves with their swimmers?


    Is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that the kind of data that someone can gather with today's


    technology?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Look for the paper presented by Craig, Boomer, & Gibbons at the 3rd


    Swimming

    Quoted message said:

    Biomechanics Symposium in Edmonton sometime in the late 70's.

    The test protocol is quite simple.

    Your terse, smug post reminds me of myself at my worst. Why not give
    the highlights of their conclusions?

    This post not-withstanding, your contribution to the group has grown by
    leaps and bounds. You're quite knowledgeable on the history of
    swimming - thanks for sharing it.

    Eric

  8. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Do any coaches out there use velocity curves with their swimmers? Is
    that the kind of data that someone can gather with today's technology?

    We've talked a bit in another thread about technique changes. One of
    the problems with technique changes is that it's difficult/impossible
    to say right away whether they represent an improvement. That's
    because the changes to a swimmer's technique will almost certainly make
    them slower in the short term. They would have to swim a number of
    weeks, or even months, to decide if any change was a good one. And who
    wants to wait that long, especially if things might be worse. I run up
    against this problem myself - I've got a fairly weak kick and rather
    "tender" left shoulder from an old rotator cuff wound. So that limits
    what I can do - I try different stuff, breath one way or the other,
    long push back, or different kick rhythms, but how do you decide which
    one is best and should be honed?

    Velocity curves would help answer that question. For example, while
    not focussing on overall speed, the different shapes of the curves
    using different technique could be compared. The ones with highest
    peak velocity may offer the best approach. Or maybe the ones with the
    least drop off in speed but lower peak velocity offer the best
    potential in the long run for sustained speed. A whole science could
    be developed there which could point swimmers in the right direction
    for their stroke, given their own physical talents and limitations.

    But it's useless without the data. I believe that video we have of
    elites training when they wear a slim white band around their waist,
    indicate a data gathering system. But I don't know anything about it,
    or how accurate it is? Does anyone else?

    One thing that has been a debate in masters swimming, regarding the
    technique is that in USA swimming the technique tends to gravitate towards
    the fastest, and not putting such a high priority on the toll it may take on
    the body, since they're considered youngsters.
    In masters swimming, most high level and knowledgeable coaches that I've
    encountered give little more priority to injury prevention then speed, since
    your swimming career in masters will span several decades, not just one or
    two, and since adult bodies don't recover as fast as kids.

  9. Budd said:

    Get yourself a good Neilson-Kellerman
    stroke watch,

    http://www.nkhome.com/rp/strokecoach/strokecoach.html

    Is this what you mean? Does the coach simply push buttons at various
    points in the stroke to determine the propusive and non-propulsive
    intervals?

  10. "diablo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And in my opinion, even this sophisticated device is flawed. It measures


    the

    Quoted message said:

    speed of the waist, not the speed of the Center Of Mass of the swimmer,
    which constantly moves relatively to the body, depending on arm and leg
    position...

    Here we go with the arm-chair coaching again...do you really have to pick
    every little detail apart like this?

    you read it and see a handful of design flaws...i read it and see a method
    to perhaps mass-test my senior team. is it exact? probably not

    Steve,

    It's not armchair coaching.

    It's just that you are interested in coaching, and I'm interested in
    science.

    If you are interested in coaching, your objective is that your swimmers swim
    faster.
    But you don't really need to understand why.

    If you are interested in science, you only want to understand why such or
    such swimmer swims faster. But you are not that much interested how you can
    make him do so.

    So if a gizmo measures something called X, and if you can see that the
    faster swimmers have this kind of X, and if you can advise your swimmers to
    change their swimming to make their X closer to the best swimmers in the
    world, it's not relevant to know if X is the instant velocity of the waist,
    the instant velocity of the center of mass, or the size of the ears.

    But if you do science, it's very important to understand what X is.

    -- Olivier

  11. "Silver0l" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "diablo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And in my opinion, even this sophisticated device is flawed. It


    measures

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    speed of the waist, not the speed of the Center Of Mass of the


    swimmer,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    which constantly moves relatively to the body, depending on arm and


    leg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    position...

    Here we go with the arm-chair coaching again...do you really have to


    pick

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    every little detail apart like this?

    you read it and see a handful of design flaws...i read it and see a


    method

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to perhaps mass-test my senior team. is it exact? probably not

    Steve,

    It's not armchair coaching.

    It's just that you are interested in coaching, and I'm interested in
    science.

    If you are interested in coaching, your objective is that your swimmers


    swim

    Quoted message said:

    faster.
    But you don't really need to understand why.

    If you are interested in science, you only want to understand why such or
    such swimmer swims faster. But you are not that much interested how you


    can

    Quoted message said:

    make him do so.

    So if a gizmo measures something called X, and if you can see that the
    faster swimmers have this kind of X, and if you can advise your swimmers


    to

    Quoted message said:

    change their swimming to make their X closer to the best swimmers in the
    world, it's not relevant to know if X is the instant velocity of the


    waist,

    Quoted message said:

    the instant velocity of the center of mass, or the size of the ears.

    But if you do science, it's very important to understand what X is.

    -- Olivier

    Olivier,

    my graduate degree is in exercise physiology. I've had studies presented at
    national conferences. I understand exactly what the importance of X is, but
    moreover, know exactly how to apply it to make a swimmer faster.

    Budd presented his work in an applied sense, therefore what is the point of
    debating such nuances as whether you're taking the velocity measurement at
    the waist or the center of mass?

  12. Silver0l said:

    http://www.gsv1.de/freq_speed.htm
    (article written by Budd)

    Very interesting article. Much of it sounds very similar to TI
    training, ...

    "In general, learning of the biomechanical patterns involved more
    rolling and stretching with the stroke, by emphasising the entry and
    early pull, and minimising the late push past the shoulder. The swimmer
    was encouraged to get on top of the water and minimise his leg kick."

    ... but I'm a bit suspicious about the "early pull."

    "The unique aspects of this program are that the swimmers train using
    the stroke frequency-velocity curve. First, they train at slow speeds
    to improve distance per stroke. ..."

    And they try to keep that DPS at higher SR. And they improve.

  13. Man o' Tea said:


    And they try to keep that DPS at higher SR. And they improve.

    So you finally see the point about the importance of SR :-).

    For most people, they have a hard time to hold a good SR. That's why
    the TI's emphasis on DPS is misdirected. Not that DPS is not
    important.

    Another issue is the DPS can bee artificially inflated by simply going
    slow and gliding more. To train for good DPS, the SR has to be
    maintained at a certain level.

    Well, I have no illusion that you will end your never-ending fight
    against Larry, even though the arguements with Larry have long become a
    contest of stubborness :-).

  14. fz said:

    So you finally see the point
    about the importance of SR :-).

    My strongest HS event was the 50
    Free; I hardly ignore the SR. In
    my post-TI training, I did pretty
    much what this article recommends
    - try to hold DPS at higher and
    higher stroke rates, which made
    for a lot faster training than I
    ever had before.

  15. Thanks to all that took the time to read our paper about stroke
    frequency. I hope it provided a more precise way of looking at stroke
    technique. However, I would like to give some additional insight about
    these stroke curves.

    There is one significant benefit of using a stroke frequency curve that
    is unrelated from all other methods of teaching stroke technique. Most
    methods of teaching improved swimming technique have basically everyone
    using the same drills or teaching a particular way to execute a stroke.
    All the subjects go through the same training, expecting results.

    After constructing a stroke frequency curve, that curve becomes your
    swimming biomechanics "finger print". Because it measures YOUR
    technique, it will free you up to experiment with your stroke and
    ensure if the changes you made in technique were beneficial or not. It
    adds a layer of precision to your swimming, and removes the traditional
    subjective feedback or claims other technique programs offer. You are
    armed with information that allows you to pick any speed from slow to
    as fast as you can go, and if you swim/race on that line, you are using
    the best stroke mechanics for that speed...for you. I have been stroke
    frequency/velocity testing pretty decent Division I swimmers two to
    three times a season for the last 18 years. Two things were very
    evident right from the beginning. The curves were all different from
    each other, and the prescription to improve or "shift" these curve
    in a positive direction varies greatly and is different for each
    swimmer.

    That precision initially will help you improve....and keep you
    improving....

    Budd

  16. Hi Budd,

    thanks for the data. I've read the paper and am still trying to absorb
    it all.

    In reviewing your data, I keep thinking of body-building and power
    lifting. Those sports made the paradigm shift you are proposing a long
    time ago. Namely, work out harder, but briefer. Back when our
    Governor was pumping iron, workouts were a few hours in length, and
    occured virtually everyday. Nowadays in the "iron game", there's
    virtually nobody saying working out more than twice a week is
    necessary. And those workouts are typically short, less than one hour
    in duration. But the intensity is sky high. It's now known in weight
    lifting that a tough, but brief workout session can easily overwhelm
    the ability of the body to recover. Swimming is probably no different.

    Your research focuses on sprints. It would be interesting to see what
    kind of gains were made by middle and distance swim events. (400m,
    800m, 1500m) Common sense predicts that the short but intense workouts
    you advocate would be less advantagous at those distances. Building
    aerobic capacity being much more importanat at those distances.

    I wish you continued success in trying to affect what would be a huge
    paradigm shift in the world of competitive swim training.

    Eric

  17. Hi Budd,

    thanks for the data. I've read the paper and am still trying to absorb
    it all.

    In reviewing your data, I keep thinking of body-building and power
    lifting. Those sports made the paradigm shift you are proposing a long
    time ago. Namely, work out harder, but briefer. Back when our
    Governor was pumping iron, workouts were a few hours in length, and
    occured virtually everyday. Nowadays in the "iron game", there's
    virtually nobody saying working out more than twice a week is
    necessary. And those workouts are typically short, less than one hour
    in duration. But the intensity is sky high. It's now known in weight
    lifting that a tough, but brief workout session can easily overwhelm
    the ability of the body to recover. Swimming is probably no different.

    Your research focuses on sprints. It would be interesting to see what
    kind of gains were made by middle and distance swim events. (400m,
    800m, 1500m) Common sense predicts that the short but intense workouts
    you advocate would be less advantagous at those distances. Building
    aerobic capacity being much more importanat at those distances.

    I wish you continued success in trying to affect what would be a huge
    paradigm shift in the world of competitive swim training.

    Eric

  18. Quoted message said:

    Your research focuses on sprints. It would be interesting to see


    what

    Quoted message said:

    kind of gains were made by middle and distance swim events. (400m,
    800m, 1500m) Common sense predicts that the short but intense


    workouts

    Quoted message said:

    you advocate would be less advantagous at those distances. Building
    aerobic capacity being much more importanat at those distances.


    I would disgree. The efficiency is more important in the longer
    distance than the shorter sprints. If you can cut down the total
    energy expenditure for maintaing a given speed, you have less need to
    increase your aerobic capability. And you also have less need for the
    heavy training too. Practically, what needs to be done is to find the
    optimal stroke rates for a given distance and train that rate into your
    neuromuscular circutry so it can become "natural". Actually, Brooke
    Bennet had done somthing similar in the years between Atlanta and
    Sydney.

  19. fz said:
    Quoted message said:

    Your research focuses on sprints. It would be interesting to see


    what

    Quoted message said:

    kind of gains were made by middle and distance swim events. (400m,
    800m, 1500m) Common sense predicts that the short but intense


    workouts

    Quoted message said:

    you advocate would be less advantagous at those distances.


    Building

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    aerobic capacity being much more importanat at those distances.


    I would disgree. The efficiency is more important in the longer
    distance than the shorter sprints. If you can cut down the total
    energy expenditure for maintaing a given speed, you have less need


    to

    Quoted message said:

    increase your aerobic capability. And you also have less need for


    the

    Quoted message said:

    heavy training too. Practically, what needs to be done is to find


    the

    Quoted message said:

    optimal stroke rates for a given distance and train that rate into


    your

    Quoted message said:

    neuromuscular circutry so it can become "natural". Actually, Brooke
    Bennet had done somthing similar in the years between Atlanta and
    Sydney.

    Well I was thinking, but didn't say it - turkeys versus ducks. Larry
    Weisenthal's theory regarding swimming being an overload sport
    primarily to try and "aerobocize" the upper body muscles. It may not
    be necessary to do this for the sprints as much as distance because
    they last so little, and anaerobic pathways are probably used a great
    deal anyways. But distance is of course a different matter.

    Eric

  20. This turkey vs. duck thing is kind of a dogma too. Anthony Ervin is
    very skinny when you compare him to Fred Bousquit. But both are
    execellent 50 free sprinters. Muscle fiber types will convert
    depending on the need (or trainning). And for most events (50 free is
    the only exeception), aerobic pathway is needed. Anaerobic metabolism
    will not be really enough to survive a 50 free sprint. So the
    distinction bewteen the distance vs. the sprint has been over played a
    little bit.

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