Veal

Ranee Mueller said:

"MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal.
Which I agree is animal cruelty just like foie gras.

Quoted message said:

Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
weaned?

Opposition to veal generally arises from how it has been
crated/confined, not from when it was killed. It is not hard to
find free range veal. The flesh is not as light-colored but it is
not any lesser in quality.

Steve

JoeSpareBedroom said:

Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move....

You just described almost every food animal. Go veg-off elsewhere.

nb

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

MoM said:

There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal. Which I
agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.

Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with it.

Regards,
Ranee

Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move for the
entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you ever seen the
containers used for veal calves?

Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be bred and
have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per five thousand cows
is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are valued as replacements in
the milking herd, but male calves are nearly worthless economically. Raising
them for veal gives the farmer a way to turn a profit on them. As for the
tiny pens, you would be hard pressed to prove that calves want to gambol
about in the pasture. What they clearly want to do is eat, and that is
provided for in those tiny pens. Some people think it is cruel to take the
calves away from their mothers. Not so. The calves of dairy cows would be
dead in a week if left with their mothers. They have no impulse to stop
feeding, and the excess milk consumption causes a deadly diarrheal disease
called "scours."

--Rich -Ex dairy farmer

notbob said:

JoeSpareBedroom said:

Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move....

You just described almost every food animal. Go veg-off elsewhere.

A lot of food animals get to roam a bit. Laying chickens are tightly
confined, but meat chickens get the run of a large enclosure. Beef cattle,
pigs and lambs are usually pastured, at least given a chance to exercise a
bit. Veal calves are kept in tight enclosures and barley have room to step
out of their own [censored]. A friend of mine who raises cattle, both for sale and
to feed his family refuses to eat veal because he is so opposed to the way
it is grown.

Steve Pope said:

Opposition to veal generally arises from how it has been
crated/confined, not from when it was killed. It is not hard to
find free range veal. The flesh is not as light-colored but it is
not any lesser in quality.

When it comes to "quality" veal is paradoxical. Milk-fed veal was
prized for its tenderness, but also for its very delicate flavor.
Which meant not very much flavor at all. Not beefy. Classic veal
dishes pay a lot of attention to subtle sauces. Except, I guess, for
big thick chops. "Free range veal" is not quite as tender, not quite
as pale, and will have a little more flavor. So 'more is less' and
'less is more' when it comes to veal.

I use boneless pork loin, pounded thin, for veal scallopine dishes.
Works fine, avoids the annoyances of shopping for the 'right kind' of
veal. -aem

"notbob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JoeSpareBedroom said:

Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move....

You just described almost every food animal. Go veg-off elsewhere.

nb

Sadly, you don't know what you're talking about.

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal. Which I
> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.

Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with it.

Regards,
Ranee

Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move for
the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you ever seen
the containers used for veal calves?

Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be bred and
have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per five thousand
cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are valued as
replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are nearly worthless
economically. Raising them for veal gives the farmer a way to turn a
profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture. What they clearly want to
do is eat, and that is provided for in those tiny pens. Some people think
it is cruel to take the calves away from their mothers. Not so. The calves
of dairy cows would be dead in a week if left with their mothers. They
have no impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk consumption causes a
deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."

--Rich -Ex dairy farmer

Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."

A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all day long.
I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them roam the pasture.
They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without any outside influence.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Abe said:

1. Because they are force fed. They never get mothers milk after they
can stand.
2. Because they are kept in restraint 24/7 and not allowed to move,
not even a step side/side or forward/back.

Comments like this are usually made by people who have never actually
been on farms.

I try to buy as little factory raised meat as I can, because they
_do_ keep them confined. Do a google search on feedlots and see how
much you want to eat that kind of beef. As for force feeding, you don't
have to force feed calves, they eat all day long anyway. Traditional
milk fed veal are not deprived milk until they are butchered, they were
just butchered young. Grain and even pasture changes the flavor of the
meat.

Regards,
Ranee

Remove do not & spam to e-mail me.

"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/
http://talesfromthekitchen.blogspot.com/

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal. Which I
>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>
> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with it.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee

Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move for
the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you ever
seen the containers used for veal calves?

Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be bred
and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per five
thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are valued as
replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are nearly worthless
economically. Raising them for veal gives the farmer a way to turn a
profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture. What they clearly want
to do is eat, and that is provided for in those tiny pens. Some people
think it is cruel to take the calves away from their mothers. Not so. The
calves of dairy cows would be dead in a week if left with their mothers.
They have no impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk consumption
causes a deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."

--Rich -Ex dairy farmer

Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."

A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all day
long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them roam the
pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without any outside
influence.

That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom get
more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well beyond the age
when their veal counterparts have been served up as osso buco or Wiener
schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly frisky animals, and when I was
raising them I never saw them run unless they were being chased by heel
flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
--

--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Smith said:

A lot of food animals get to roam a bit. Laying chickens are tightly
confined, but meat chickens get the run of a large enclosure. Beef cattle,
pigs and lambs are usually pastured, at least given a chance to exercise a
bit. Veal calves are kept in tight enclosures and barley have room to step
out of their own [censored]. A friend of mine who raises cattle, both for sale and
to feed his family refuses to eat veal because he is so opposed to the way
it is grown.

This may be the way it is in Canada, but I doubt it unless you are
talking about small farm operations. Even so called "free range"
chickens only have to be outdoors an hour a day to qualify for that
title, and that includes being in their cages, but set outside.

Factory farmed poultry and meat are seriously confined in small
spaces, fed food that is unnatural for them and feedlots are notorious
for having diseased animals because of the crowding and the fact that
they are standing in their own feces, sometimes up to their shanks.. It
is disgusting. If veal are kept in tight enclosures, it is no different
than their adult compatriots, except that they perhaps have a lower
chance of catching disease from all the other animals confined with
them, since they are theoretically kept isolated.

Regards,
Ranee

Remove do not & spam to e-mail me.

"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/
http://talesfromthekitchen.blogspot.com/

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal. Which I
>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>
>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ranee
>
> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move for
> the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you ever
> seen the containers used for veal calves?

Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be bred
and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per five
thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are valued as
replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are nearly worthless
economically. Raising them for veal gives the farmer a way to turn a
profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture. What they clearly want
to do is eat, and that is provided for in those tiny pens. Some people
think it is cruel to take the calves away from their mothers. Not so.
The calves of dairy cows would be dead in a week if left with their
mothers. They have no impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk
consumption causes a deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."

--Rich -Ex dairy farmer

Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."

A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all day
long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them roam the
pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without any outside
influence.

That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom get
more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well beyond the age
when their veal counterparts have been served up as osso buco or Wiener
schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly frisky animals, and when I was
raising them I never saw them run unless they were being chased by heel
flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
--Rich

Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of means
"to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult cows)
frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable being free
to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal. Which
>>>> I
>>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>>
>>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
>>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with it.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ranee
>>
>> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move for
>> the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you ever
>> seen the containers used for veal calves?
>
> Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be bred
> and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per five
> thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are valued
> as replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are nearly
> worthless economically. Raising them for veal gives the farmer a way to
> turn a profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you would be hard pressed
> to prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture. What they
> clearly want to do is eat, and that is provided for in those tiny pens.
> Some people think it is cruel to take the calves away from their
> mothers. Not so. The calves of dairy cows would be dead in a week if
> left with their mothers. They have no impulse to stop feeding, and the
> excess milk consumption causes a deadly diarrheal disease called
> "scours."
>
>
> --Rich -Ex dairy farmer
>

Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to prove
that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."

A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all day
long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them roam
the pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without any
outside influence.

That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom get
more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well beyond the
age when their veal counterparts have been served up as osso buco or
Wiener schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly frisky animals, and
when I was raising them I never saw them run unless they were being
chased by heel flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
--Rich

Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of
means "to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult cows)
frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable being free
to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.

Goody for them. Now what is the dairy farmer to do with all those bull
calves (about half the calves born)? He could raise them as beef stock,
consuming pasture and feedstocks that he could otherwise feed to the milk
herd, then sell them at a loss as low grade beef at auction. Or he can feed
them powdered milk formula until they reach veal weight and sell them at a
nice profit. As for the cruel tiny pens, they exist, but they are not
universal. I farmed in Virginia were the winters are not very severe
generally, and each of my veal calves had an 8ft by 8ft outdoor pen with an
A-frame shelter. That was years before the "free-range" fad, but my system
would probably have qualified for that moniker.

--Rich

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal. Which
>>>>> I
>>>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>>>
>>>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
>>>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ranee
>>>
>>> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move
>>> for the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you
>>> ever seen the containers used for veal calves?
>>
>> Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be bred
>> and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per five
>> thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are valued
>> as replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are nearly
>> worthless economically. Raising them for veal gives the farmer a way
>> to turn a profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you would be hard
>> pressed to prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture. What
>> they clearly want to do is eat, and that is provided for in those tiny
>> pens. Some people think it is cruel to take the calves away from their
>> mothers. Not so. The calves of dairy cows would be dead in a week if
>> left with their mothers. They have no impulse to stop feeding, and the
>> excess milk consumption causes a deadly diarrheal disease called
>> "scours."
>>
>>
>> --Rich -Ex dairy farmer
>>
>
> Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to
> prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."
>
> A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all day
> long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them roam
> the pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without any
> outside influence.

That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom get
more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well beyond the
age when their veal counterparts have been served up as osso buco or
Wiener schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly frisky animals, and
when I was raising them I never saw them run unless they were being
chased by heel flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
--Rich

Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of
means "to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult cows)
frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable being
free to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.

Goody for them. Now what is the dairy farmer to do with all those bull
calves (about half the calves born)? He could raise them as beef stock,
consuming pasture and feedstocks that he could otherwise feed to the milk
herd, then sell them at a loss as low grade beef at auction. Or he can
feed them powdered milk formula until they reach veal weight and sell them
at a nice profit. As for the cruel tiny pens, they exist, but they are not
universal. I farmed in Virginia were the winters are not very severe
generally, and each of my veal calves had an 8ft by 8ft outdoor pen with
an A-frame shelter. That was years before the "free-range" fad, but my
system would probably have qualified for that moniker.

--Rich

Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would you
want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the width of your
shoulders?

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would
you want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the
width of your shoulders?

You eat meat but not eat veal? Where is the double-standard line drawn?

Andy

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Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>>>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal.
>>>>>> Which I
>>>>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
>>>>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ranee
>>>>
>>>> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move
>>>> for the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you
>>>> ever seen the containers used for veal calves?
>>>
>>> Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be
>>> bred and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per
>>> five thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are
>>> valued as replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are
>>> nearly worthless economically. Raising them for veal gives the farmer
>>> a way to turn a profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you would be
>>> hard pressed to prove that calves want to gambol about in the
>>> pasture. What they clearly want to do is eat, and that is provided
>>> for in those tiny pens. Some people think it is cruel to take the
>>> calves away from their mothers. Not so. The calves of dairy cows
>>> would be dead in a week if left with their mothers. They have no
>>> impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk consumption causes a
>>> deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."
>>>
>>>
>>> --Rich -Ex dairy farmer
>>>
>>
>> Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to
>> prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."
>>
>> A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all day
>> long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them roam
>> the pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without any
>> outside influence.
>
> That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom
> get more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well beyond
> the age when their veal counterparts have been served up as osso buco
> or Wiener schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly frisky animals,
> and when I was raising them I never saw them run unless they were being
> chased by heel flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
> --Rich

Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of
means "to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult cows)
frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable being
free to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.

Goody for them. Now what is the dairy farmer to do with all those bull
calves (about half the calves born)? He could raise them as beef stock,
consuming pasture and feedstocks that he could otherwise feed to the milk
herd, then sell them at a loss as low grade beef at auction. Or he can
feed them powdered milk formula until they reach veal weight and sell
them at a nice profit. As for the cruel tiny pens, they exist, but they
are not universal. I farmed in Virginia were the winters are not very
severe generally, and each of my veal calves had an 8ft by 8ft outdoor
pen with an A-frame shelter. That was years before the "free-range" fad,
but my system would probably have qualified for that moniker.

--Rich

Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would you
want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the width of
your shoulders?

Don't anthropomorphize other animals. What you and I would find
uncomfortable does not necessarily apply to calves and chickens. It doesn't
even apply to newborn humans. We adults would be most uncomfortable trying
to sleep if we were tightly wrapped in a blanket that we could not even move
our arms and legs. But babies are well known to sleep most comfortably in
just that condition. I've seen veal calves in 3ft by 4ft pens with automated
feeding systems, and they did not appear particularly uncomfortable. They
aren't humans, you know.
--

--Rich

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Quoted message said:

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> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>
>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>>>>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal.
>>>>>>> Which I
>>>>>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it was
>>>>>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ranee
>>>>>
>>>>> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move
>>>>> for the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have you
>>>>> ever seen the containers used for veal calves?
>>>>
>>>> Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be
>>>> bred and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per
>>>> five thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are
>>>> valued as replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are
>>>> nearly worthless economically. Raising them for veal gives the
>>>> farmer a way to turn a profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you
>>>> would be hard pressed to prove that calves want to gambol about in
>>>> the pasture. What they clearly want to do is eat, and that is
>>>> provided for in those tiny pens. Some people think it is cruel to
>>>> take the calves away from their mothers. Not so. The calves of dairy
>>>> cows would be dead in a week if left with their mothers. They have
>>>> no impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk consumption causes a
>>>> deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --Rich -Ex dairy farmer
>>>>
>>>
>>> Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to
>>> prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."
>>>
>>> A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all
>>> day long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them
>>> roam the pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without
>>> any outside influence.
>>
>> That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom
>> get more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well beyond
>> the age when their veal counterparts have been served up as osso buco
>> or Wiener schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly frisky animals,
>> and when I was raising them I never saw them run unless they were
>> being chased by heel flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
>> --Rich
>
> Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of
> means "to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult cows)
> frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable being
> free to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.

Goody for them. Now what is the dairy farmer to do with all those bull
calves (about half the calves born)? He could raise them as beef stock,
consuming pasture and feedstocks that he could otherwise feed to the
milk herd, then sell them at a loss as low grade beef at auction. Or he
can feed them powdered milk formula until they reach veal weight and
sell them at a nice profit. As for the cruel tiny pens, they exist, but
they are not universal. I farmed in Virginia were the winters are not
very severe generally, and each of my veal calves had an 8ft by 8ft
outdoor pen with an A-frame shelter. That was years before the
"free-range" fad, but my system would probably have qualified for that
moniker.

--Rich

Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would you
want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the width of
your shoulders?

Don't anthropomorphize other animals. What you and I would find
uncomfortable does not necessarily apply to calves and chickens. It
doesn't even apply to newborn humans. We adults would be most
uncomfortable trying to sleep if we were tightly wrapped in a blanket that
we could not even move our arms and legs. But babies are well known to
sleep most comfortably in just that condition. I've seen veal calves in
3ft by 4ft pens with automated feeding systems, and they did not appear
particularly uncomfortable. They aren't humans, you know.
--Rich

That's a popular and convenient dodge when one is in a rush to get with some
other task.

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>>>>>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal.
>>>>>>>> Which I
>>>>>>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem with
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ranee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to move
>>>>>> for the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that? Have
>>>>>> you ever seen the containers used for veal calves?
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be
>>>>> bred and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per
>>>>> five thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers, are
>>>>> valued as replacements in the milking herd, but male calves are
>>>>> nearly worthless economically. Raising them for veal gives the
>>>>> farmer a way to turn a profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you
>>>>> would be hard pressed to prove that calves want to gambol about in
>>>>> the pasture. What they clearly want to do is eat, and that is
>>>>> provided for in those tiny pens. Some people think it is cruel to
>>>>> take the calves away from their mothers. Not so. The calves of
>>>>> dairy cows would be dead in a week if left with their mothers. They
>>>>> have no impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk consumption
>>>>> causes a deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --Rich -Ex dairy farmer
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to
>>>> prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."
>>>>
>>>> A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all
>>>> day long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING them
>>>> roam the pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea without
>>>> any outside influence.
>>>
>>> That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom
>>> get more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well
>>> beyond the age when their veal counterparts have been served up as
>>> osso buco or Wiener schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly
>>> frisky animals, and when I was raising them I never saw them run
>>> unless they were being chased by heel flies, hornets, or my herd dog.
>>> --Rich
>>
>> Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of
>> means "to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult
>> cows) frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable
>> being free to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.
>
> Goody for them. Now what is the dairy farmer to do with all those bull
> calves (about half the calves born)? He could raise them as beef
> stock, consuming pasture and feedstocks that he could otherwise feed to
> the milk herd, then sell them at a loss as low grade beef at auction.
> Or he can feed them powdered milk formula until they reach veal weight
> and sell them at a nice profit. As for the cruel tiny pens, they exist,
> but they are not universal. I farmed in Virginia were the winters are
> not very severe generally, and each of my veal calves had an 8ft by 8ft
> outdoor pen with an A-frame shelter. That was years before the
> "free-range" fad, but my system would probably have qualified for that
> moniker.
>
> --Rich
>

Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would you
want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the width of
your shoulders?

Don't anthropomorphize other animals. What you and I would find
uncomfortable does not necessarily apply to calves and chickens. It
doesn't even apply to newborn humans. We adults would be most
uncomfortable trying to sleep if we were tightly wrapped in a blanket
that we could not even move our arms and legs. But babies are well known
to sleep most comfortably in just that condition. I've seen veal calves
in 3ft by 4ft pens with automated feeding systems, and they did not
appear particularly uncomfortable. They aren't humans, you know.
--Rich

That's a popular and convenient dodge when one is in a rush to get with
some other task.

Whose dodging? Whose rushing? I've got all the time in the world for you to
explain just what discomfort veal calves are suffering if you don't assign
them human emotions and assume that they are dreaming of pastures and
daisies and picnics in the park with Mommy and Daddy. (Daddy lives near
Plain City, Ohio, and Mommy has never met him either.)
--

--Rich

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>
>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>>> "Ranee Mueller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>>>> In article <[email hidden]>,
>>>>>>>> "MoM" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is probably veal around, just not milk fed white veal.
>>>>>>>>> Which I
>>>>>>>>> agree is animal cruelty just like foi gras.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why is it cruel? Because you are eating something before it
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> weaned? As long as it was killed quickly, I have no problem
>>>>>>>> with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ranee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Traditionally, the animals are locked in tiny pens, unable to
>>>>>>> move for the entire time they're alive. Were you aware of that?
>>>>>>> Have you ever seen the containers used for veal calves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you? Veal exists because of the dairy industry. Cows must be
>>>>>> bred and have calves to produce milk, but only about one bull per
>>>>>> five thousand cows is necessary. Female calves, called heifers,
>>>>>> are valued as replacements in the milking herd, but male calves
>>>>>> are nearly worthless economically. Raising them for veal gives the
>>>>>> farmer a way to turn a profit on them. As for the tiny pens, you
>>>>>> would be hard pressed to prove that calves want to gambol about in
>>>>>> the pasture. What they clearly want to do is eat, and that is
>>>>>> provided for in those tiny pens. Some people think it is cruel to
>>>>>> take the calves away from their mothers. Not so. The calves of
>>>>>> dairy cows would be dead in a week if left with their mothers.
>>>>>> They have no impulse to stop feeding, and the excess milk
>>>>>> consumption causes a deadly diarrheal disease called "scours."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Rich -Ex dairy farmer
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's focus on this thing you said: "you would be hard pressed to
>>>>> prove that calves want to gambol about in the pasture."
>>>>>
>>>>> A friend of mine raises beef cattle. The calves "gambol about" all
>>>>> day long. I've looked carefully and never noticed anyone MAKING
>>>>> them roam the pasture. They seem pretty comfortable with the idea
>>>>> without any outside influence.
>>>>
>>>> That would hardly be proof, even if it were true. Beef calves seldom
>>>> get more than a few feet from their mothers until they are well
>>>> beyond the age when their veal counterparts have been served up as
>>>> osso buco or Wiener schnitzel. Beef cattle are not particularly
>>>> frisky animals, and when I was raising them I never saw them run
>>>> unless they were being chased by heel flies, hornets, or my herd
>>>> dog.
>>>> --Rich
>>>
>>> Oh...wait. I should've checked "gambol" in the dictionary. It sort of
>>> means "to frolic". You're right. I've never seen calves (or adult
>>> cows) frolicking. But, the calves certainly did seem very comfortable
>>> being free to wander, or flop in the grass, or whatever.
>>
>> Goody for them. Now what is the dairy farmer to do with all those bull
>> calves (about half the calves born)? He could raise them as beef
>> stock, consuming pasture and feedstocks that he could otherwise feed
>> to the milk herd, then sell them at a loss as low grade beef at
>> auction. Or he can feed them powdered milk formula until they reach
>> veal weight and sell them at a nice profit. As for the cruel tiny
>> pens, they exist, but they are not universal. I farmed in Virginia
>> were the winters are not very severe generally, and each of my veal
>> calves had an 8ft by 8ft outdoor pen with an A-frame shelter. That was
>> years before the "free-range" fad, but my system would probably have
>> qualified for that moniker.
>>
>> --Rich
>>
>
> Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would
> you want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the
> width of your shoulders?

Don't anthropomorphize other animals. What you and I would find
uncomfortable does not necessarily apply to calves and chickens. It
doesn't even apply to newborn humans. We adults would be most
uncomfortable trying to sleep if we were tightly wrapped in a blanket
that we could not even move our arms and legs. But babies are well known
to sleep most comfortably in just that condition. I've seen veal calves
in 3ft by 4ft pens with automated feeding systems, and they did not
appear particularly uncomfortable. They aren't humans, you know.
--Rich

That's a popular and convenient dodge when one is in a rush to get with
some other task.

Whose dodging? Whose rushing? I've got all the time in the world for you
to explain just what discomfort veal calves are suffering if you don't
assign them human emotions and assume that they are dreaming of pastures
and daisies and picnics in the park with Mommy and Daddy. (Daddy lives
near Plain City, Ohio, and Mommy has never met him either.)

You assume one thing about them, and I assume the other. What's wrong with
that? Neither of us has, or ever will have proof of our assumptions.

JoeSpareBedroom said:

Sadly, you don't know what you're talking about.

Oh, really? Name one food animal in the US that isn't crowded/packed into
pen/cages/stockyards to an unnaturally highly stressed degree. The
organic geek with 12 cows in Nosedrip Hollow, Napa CA, doesn't count.

nb

JoeSpareBedroom said:

Let's put it this way: If you were arrested for drunk driving, would you
want to be placed in a "cell" that was maybe 3" wider than the width of your
shoulders?

Let's put it this way: What should one do with a person who lacks the
consideration and/or common sense to edit out 80+ lines of useless
text from the previous post? I say we put him/her in a pen and feed
them Starbucks caramel frappo-lattes till their brain caves in and they
puke blood, then we kick 'em to the curb and grind them up for use as
potting soil for Venus flytraps.

nb