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VDB admits doping...?

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Road Cycling
Published
3 October 2003
Last activity
9 October 2003
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Hb
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  1. Nick Burns said:

    I think the reason the war was lost was that the definition of victory was unrealistic.

    Agreed.

    Let's look at a an example or two:

    Gert-Jan Theunisse, in his day was a great rider. It was commonly presumed that he was ''taking''
    something, namely testosterone.

    People even called him ''Mr. Testo''

    He was tested on numerous occasions. And came up clean, except, I believe, for the one time at the
    Tour de France for testosterone. Several years later, queried on the subject, Gert-Jan asserted that
    he did not use Testosterone. Asked what he did use, he replied ''Speed''. (Amphetamines - Davey)

    His bosom buddy Steven Rooks, if I remember, was never positive but in 2000 admitted to the use of
    Amphetamines and Testostrone throughout a 13 year career.

    Those were the halcyon PDM years, when Kelly abandoned the Lemonade merchants and quit winning
    sprints on those junky aluminium frames that no self respecting first year rookie would ride in the
    local Thursday Night criterium.

    There was the ''bad batch of intra-lipid'' I seem to remember, but for a squad where doping was ''de
    rigeur'' the lads seemed to be troubled hardly at all by the doping controls.

    Then let's look at Deutsche Telekom.

    They settled out of court a few years back several claims for damages by former riders. These claims
    were based on the continuing deleterious effects of Telekom's mandatory doping programme.

    And then again there was the ''Der Spiegel'' allegations against Telekom which seemed to be
    impeccably sourced and which stated that doping was compulsory from 1994 on.

    ''Der Spiegel'' also cited Ullrich as having spent a night alone in another hotel separate from the
    team after the squad had been forewarned of a ''Surprize'' doping test to take place sometime during
    the night.

    Further cited was Walter Godefroot's order to the lads to jettison their ''goodies'' after a certain
    mountain top finish at the Tour because he had ''heard'' that there might be a search.

    OK, so what about Rumsas? Everyone, including VDB's pet pooch, seem to think that he was ''on
    something''.

    But did he ever test positive?

    And my point in this diatribe?

    Doping controls are not worth the time, effort and expense.

    SCRAP THEM.

    And screw [censored] Pound ([censored] by name; [censored] by nature) and his WADA wankerz.

    I bet he only started that gig because me was miffed at not getting Juan-Antonio's job, and figured
    out how to kill two birds with one stone.

    Firstly he needed to find a new trough in which to firmly plant his snout and both trotters after
    being somewhat cut off from the IOC pork barrel. And secondly he figured that by dissing the TDF he
    could get even with the ''Froggies'' whom he is sure somehow put in the fix that denied him the IOC
    presidency and installed a Francophone, Jacques Rogge, even though he's a Walloon from Belgium.

    --
    le vent a Dos

    Davey Crockett

  2. Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I think you just one a "dumbass" (intentional lower cese) for that ridiculous portrayal of
    genetics.

    Quoted message said:

    Goddamm, you're stupid.

    No, YOU are gullable. My family has been involved in molecular gnetics for over 50 years. Wanna
    play? YOU said "deer mitochondria" I believe. When was the last time a deer ran full out for 4-5
    hours? Other errors all over the place, but, we could go back to music....

    Quoted message said:

    From: sport.guardian.co.uk0,10082,609912,00.html

    Quoted message said:

    The gene genie is out of the bottle

    Quoted message said:

    It is sport's doomsday scenario: a new wave of performance-enhancing drugs whose use is utterly
    undetectable. And, according to the scientists and world

    Quoted message said:

    doping experts who met at a special conference in London yesterday, that doomsday is already nigh.

    Quoted message said:

    The key, they say, is genetic manipulation. By the Athens Olympics in 2004, dozens if not hundreds
    of athletes are expected to have experimented with the rapidly emerging range of gene-altering
    drugs. Unfettered by fears of being caught they will, according to the experts, shatter the
    accepted limits of human performance.

    Quoted message said:

    "I think genetic engineering may have already started," said the former Norwegian speed-skating
    champion Johann Olav Koss, a doctor and member of the International Olympic Committee's World
    Anti-Doping Agency. "We can't be naive. We must be realistic."

    Quoted message said:

    In recent years geneticists have made major advances in gene therapy. This involves injecting the
    body with artificial genes which then produce therapeutic proteins that can limit the spread of
    disease and ease chronic pain. The technique, while still being tested experimentally on humans,
    has already been used successfully on animals. But that is not the end of the story.

    Quoted message said:

    "While the information from genetic science will lead to better disease treatments," said Bruce
    Lynn, a neurophysiologist at University College London and one of the organisers of yesterday's
    conference on genetics and their role in sport. "It will also present the sports industry with a
    Pandora's box."

    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Researchers at London's Royal Free hospital and UCL's medical school recently tested
    muscle-building engineered vaccines on mice. Dubbed mechano-growth factor (MGF), a protein which
    makes muscles grow and repair themselves, the vaccines were found to increase muscle mass by as
    much as 60% within a month and with no exercise.

    Quoted message said:

    "We call them the Schwarzenegger mice," said a Harvard medical school professor, Nadia Rosenthal,
    who has run similar experiments. "I'd be totally surprised if it was not going on in sports. Those
    with terminal cancer and Aids want to know 'What will keep me alive?' Athletes want to know 'What
    will help me win?'"

    Quoted message said:

    But there is a cost, and not just the potential disintegration of sport as we know it. Many drugs
    have dangerous, or even toxic, side-effects. Use of human-growth hormone leads to enlarged organs
    and uncontrollable bone growth in the face and hands; inserted genes could spin out of control,
    leading to thickening blood, strokes, heart attacks and death.

    Quoted message said:

    <snip><end

  3. "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    No, YOU are gullable. My family has been involved in molecular gnetics for over 50 years. Wanna
    play? YOU said "deer mitochondria" I believe. When was the last time a deer ran full out for 4-5
    hours? Other errors all over the place, but, we could go back to music....

    Keep it down dude. I was gonna sell some killer "Deer Mito" at the races, dude. I just have to think
    of a good marketing name, like "Dyno-Mito".

  4. "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I think you just one a "dumbass" (intentional lower cese) for that ridiculous portrayal of
    genetics.

    Quoted message said:

    Goddamm, you're stupid.

    No, YOU are gullable. My family has been involved in molecular gnetics for over 50 years. Wanna
    play? YOU said "deer mitochondria" I believe. When was the last time a deer ran full out for 4-5
    hours? Other errors all over the place,

    Dumbass -

    That's just speculation of what could be done. Another is increased natural EPO production.

    Specific examples are pure speculation. What is not is the potential of gene therapy in performance
    enhancement, along with the potential of gene therapy for horrific side effects.

    Did you read the article? Here's the url again:

    sport.guardian.co.uk0,10082,609912,00.html

    Quoted message said:

    but, we could go back to music....

    Why don't we?

    I figured out what was wrong with the "Joplin introduced rhythm" take. It should have been "Joplin
    merged African syncopation with the Western tonal system"

  5. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Dumbass -

    I wasn't talking about super-athletic flies, persay, just that it will be possible to morph humans
    into beings that most of us may consider to be non-human.

    They can change genes in your body, system-wide, on the go, with those techniques. The genes of a
    chimpanzee differ from a human by 2%.

    BTW, genetic vaccines have been the subject of talk among the pro racers.


    Of

    Quoted message said:

    course, they're generally not happy about the prospect, although it


    doesn't

    Quoted message said:

    seem like anyone is suspected of it (yet).

    As if we now know how to write DNA? Right, just do a little cut and paste. I don't think so! There
    is a long way to go on that. The first objective is to create remedies for disease. That is where
    the potential for revenue is. Creating finely tuned athletes will only come along as a by-product
    (if at all).

    These articles are deliberately optimistic in order to create interest and therefore funding. If you
    beleive them, put your money where your mouth is and start investing in genetic engineering.
    Applications are in the distant future and may be disappointing. In fact, the first "article" you
    pointed to was an advertisement. Did you notice?

    Quoted message said:

    here's more:

    From: amnh.orgalike.html

    Humans don't appear to have much in common with mice and worms. Yet within the cells of each are
    genes, operating instructions made of DNA. Despite


    the

    Quoted message said:

    differences among organisms-wings, leaves, feet or fins-most share a surprising number of genes.
    Humans and one species of worm, for example, share 21% of their genes; humans and mice share 90%.
    Scientists compare


    the

    Quoted message said:

    genes of plants, animals and humans primarily to learn more about


    ourselves.

    Quoted message said:


    Fruit fly36% Mouse90% Roundworm21% Yeast23% Thale cress15% Zebrafish85% E coli7% Chimp98% Rat90%

    <snip><end

  6. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    From: sport.guardian.co.uk0,10082,609912,00.html

    I could not find any references to super-athletic flies.

    Dumbass -

    I wasn't talking about super-athletic flies

    What about 'Super-Athletic' Dumbasses?

    Have you thought about that?

    No?

    Well don't because I have and they'll just (by my calculations) spend they're time bending.

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 18/09/2003

  7. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    I wasn't talking about super-athletic flies, persay,

    That's PER SE

    Quoted message said:

    just that it will be possible to morph humans into beings that most of us may consider to be
    non-human.

    They can change genes in your body, system-wide, on the go, with those techniques. The genes of a
    chimpanzee differ from a human by 2%.

    BTW, genetic vaccines have been the subject of talk among the pro racers. Of course, they're
    generally not happy about the prospect, although it doesn't seem like anyone is suspected of
    it (yet).

    As soon as researchers discover a lipo-burning gene, that will be the end of the FATTIE MASTERS.

  8. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I wasn't talking about super-athletic flies, persay, just that it will be possible to morph humans
    into beings that most of us may consider to be non-human.

    You watch too many movies and read too few books. If you're so paranoid about microbiology why don't
    you go check out a book on the subject and read it instead of these ridiculous articles. Then you
    can see what a Dumbass you've been in this thread.

  9. "Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    As if we now know how to write DNA? Right, just do a little cut and paste.


    I

    Quoted message said:

    don't think so! There is a long way to go on that. The first objective is


    to

    Quoted message said:

    create remedies for disease. That is where the potential for revenue is. Creating finely tuned
    athletes will only come along as a by-product (if at all).

    These articles are deliberately optimistic in order to create interest and therefore funding. If
    you beleive them, put your money where your mouth is and start investing in genetic engineering.
    Applications are in the distant future and may be disappointing. In fact, the first "article"
    you pointed


    to

    Quoted message said:

    was an advertisement. Did you notice?

    Dumbass -

    The athletes themselves will start experimenting with it. Did you read the mice part in the
    first article?

    sport.guardian.co.uk0,10082,609912,00.html

    Researchers at London's Royal Free hospital and UCL's medical school recently tested muscle-building
    engineered vaccines on mice. Dubbed mechano-growth factor (MGF), a protein which makes muscles grow
    and repair themselves, the vaccines were found to increase muscle mass by as much as 60% within a
    month and with no exercise.

    "We call them the Schwarzenegger mice," said a Harvard medical school professor, Nadia Rosenthal,
    who has run similar experiments. "I'd be totally surprised if it was not going on in sports. Those
    with terminal cancer and Aids want to know 'What will keep me alive?' Athletes want to know 'What
    will help me win?'"

    <snip><end>

    The reason I made the comment about deer mitochondria is that deer mitochondria are 4 times
    larger than a human's. It probably wouldn't be that difficult for a state of the art lab to
    narrow down what gene that is related to, then create a vaccine to change that gene (in humans)
    to match the deer.

    The problem of course is the unknown side effects. What else will be affected by changing
    that one gene?

    As for your point about creating remedies for disease: duh. that should also be the first objective
    of drugs too. So what happened? Drugs found their way into the athletic world, unsurprisingly. So
    will genetic vaccines - they're very similar to drugs - the difference is that the genetic vaccines
    cause the human body to change itself, permanently.

    Finally, Dumbass, I'm not advocating the use of genetic vaccines in sports. I am saying that it will
    happen and someday some of the side effects have the potential to be shocking.

  10. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    As for your point about creating remedies for disease: duh. that should


    also

    Quoted message said:

    be the first objective of drugs too. So what happened? Drugs found their


    way

    Quoted message said:

    into the athletic world, unsurprisingly. So will genetic vaccines -


    they're

    Quoted message said:

    very similar to drugs - the difference is that the genetic vaccines cause


    the

    Quoted message said:

    human body to change itself, permanently.

    Finally, Dumbass, I'm not advocating the use of genetic vaccines in


    sports. I

    Quoted message said:

    am saying that it will happen and someday some of the side effects have


    the

    Quoted message said:

    potential to be shocking.

    Yeah, as long as you understand we may be talking about 50 or 100 years from now and maybe never.
    That was my point. Look at how long it took medicines to develop from snake oil, to decent efficacy
    disease to some modest ergonomic benefits. It is not likely to happen in your lifetime.

  11. "Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Yeah, as long as you understand we may be talking about 50 or 100 years


    from

    Quoted message said:

    now and maybe never. That was my point. Look at how long it took medicines to develop from snake
    oil, to decent efficacy disease to some modest ergonomic benefits. It is not likely to happen in
    your lifetime.

    Dumbass -

    Certain athletes will take it before any sort of methodology is developed. Remember the early EPO
    abusers, or the synthetic hemoglobin abusers (Gianetti almost died).

    Then there's this:

    mastervault.comnewspage6.htm

    "We believe that it's better to provide information rather than use scare tactics such as testing,"
    Bledsoe said. "But many people will do anything to get ahead. There was a survey taken a few years
    ago that asked professional, Olympic, and high-end college athletes whether they would take a drug
    that would guarantee a championship or gold medal but also take 10 years off their life. Over 50
    percent of the players responded that they would take the drug."

    <snip><end>

    Do not confuse the elite athlete's psychology with yours or mine. They are different.

  12. Damn............you talk too much!!

  13. In article said:

    Damn............you talk too much!!

    Steve-

    Have a look at the instructions for your newsreader on the use of killfiles.

    Then again, maybe you *like* reading his posts or enjoy complaining about them.

    -WG

  14. Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Kurgan Gringioni said:

    "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > I think you just one a "dumbass" (intentional lower cese) for that ridiculous portrayal of
    > genetics.

    Quoted message said:

    Goddamm, you're stupid.

    No, YOU are gullable. My family has been involved in molecular gnetics for over 50 years. Wanna
    play? YOU said "deer mitochondria" I believe. When was the last time a deer ran full out for 4-5
    hours? Other errors all over the place,

    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass -

    Quoted message said:

    That's just speculation of what could be done. Another is increased natural EPO production.

    Quoted message said:

    Specific examples are pure speculation. What is not is the potential of gene therapy in
    performance enhancement, along with the potential of gene therapy for horrific side effects.

    Quoted message said:

    Did you read the article? Here's the url again:

    Quoted message said:

    sport.guardian.co.uk0,10082,609912,00.html

    Yea, I read the article. However, it didn't provide any of the science upon which it supposedly
    was based.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    but, we could go back to music....

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't we?

    Did we ever finish that dicussion of the french foundations of functional tonality? No?

    Quoted message said:

    I figured out what was wrong with the "Joplin introduced rhythm" take. It should have been "Joplin
    merged African syncopation with the Western tonal system"

    As did Tango composers of the same era...

  15. benjo maso said:

    "HB" <marrone-ALPHA_A-sol.dk> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    According to sportenkort.dk VDB has admitted to doping.

    There is no reference to where the news came from, and I haven't found it

    on

    Quoted message said:

    any other media. I guess it was to be expected that his dog didn't do it (!), but a rider like VDB
    saying that there's no way of competing at top level without doping is quite unusual.

    Musseuws secret codes with his vet just makes the story even more crazy.

    Is there any confirmation of the above mentioned?

    It was a report in the Flemish newspaper "Het laatste niews". It's unusual, true, but it's
    probably a strategic retreat to a second line of defense. Since the police has found eleven
    illicit products in his home, such as growth hormones, testosteron, clembuterol, morphine,
    amphetamine, diuretic, etc., it's probably no use anymore to continue denying.

    Benjo Maso

    Didn't sound like he's doing all the well "clean", either, but I'm amazed at the naivity of such a
    defense...

    "Well, everyone else is doing it!"

    That line never got me out of trouble as a kid, can't figure out how someone his age could believe
    that's going to sway a judge.

  16. "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    No, YOU are gullable. My family has been involved in molecular gnetics for over 50 years. Wanna
    play? YOU said "deer mitochondria" I believe. When was the last time a deer ran full


    out

    Quoted message said:

    for 4-5 hours? Other errors all over the place, but, we could go back to music....

    You are the idiot. Genetic engineering is one of the most evil forms of pollution dumped on the
    earth yet.

  17. "Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Did you read the article? Here's the url again:

    Quoted message said:

    sport.guardian.co.uk0,10082,609912,00.html

    Yea, I read the article. However, it didn't provide any of the science upon which it supposedly
    was based.

    The "Schwarzenegger mice" study was widely reported.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why don't we?

    Did we ever finish that dicussion of the french foundations of functional tonality? No?

    Quoted message said:

    I figured out what was wrong with the "Joplin introduced rhythm" take. It should have been
    "Joplin merged African syncopation with the Western


    tonal

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    system"

    As did Tango composers of the same era...

    Ragtime was the ancestor of jazz and all its offshoots, blues, rock, R&B et al. It was the start of
    the 20th century change that saw the rhythm section become the focal point of the music.

    I'm not exactly sure what is the point of contesting that. The difference between the emphasis
    in rhythm in 20th century popular music (jazz, blues, rock) and pre-20th century classical is
    very apparent.

  18. "Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:PRpfb.679310$uu5.110866@sccrnsc04...

    Quoted message said:


    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I wasn't talking about super-athletic flies, persay, just that it will be possible to morph
    humans into beings that most of us may consider to be non-human.

    You watch too many movies and read too few books.

    Dumbass -

    I've gone to 3 movies in the past year. I don't own a TV. My main source of entertainment
    is reading.

    Quoted message said:

    If you're so paranoid about microbiology why don't you go check out a book on the subject and


    read

    Quoted message said:

    it instead of these ridiculous articles. Then you can see what a Dumbass you've been in
    this thread.

    Dumbass -

    Where am I paranoid? My only contention is that gene therapy will be used as a performance enhancer
    and that there could be some strange unwanted side effects since we don't yet have a complete
    understanding of the workings of the human body. In some ways it will be similar to drug therapy, in
    other ways it won't. When one considers that we are only 2% different from a chimpanzee, it's
    logical that there could be some strangeness in the works.

    Some of the unforeseen changes may even be positive. Others may not.

  19. Davey Crockett said:

    a Francophone, Jacques Rogge, even though he's a Walloon from Belgium.

    A Fleming actually, from Ghent.

  20. Steve said:


    Damn............you talk too much!!


    This abuse of the most unheralded unfriendliness. Cease it today!

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