V-Brakes Stop So Much Better!

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

I've wondered this myself. Especially when I'm going through a tight
turn at a criterium, I've often thought "This would all be so much
easier if those 57 guys in front of me had better brakes. Then we could
all slow down more and rest through the turn." Or when going through a
cutback on a steep descent I think "Man, if I only had REALLY good
brakes, I'd lock them up right now just for the fun of it!"

But screw v-brakes, I want DISCS! Maybe even strategically placed brick
walls.

Tim Lines said:

NYC XYZ said:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

I've wondered this myself. Especially when I'm going through a tight
turn at a criterium, I've often thought "This would all be so much
easier if those 57 guys in front of me had better brakes. Then we could
all slow down more and rest through the turn." Or when going through a
cutback on a steep descent I think "Man, if I only had REALLY good
brakes, I'd lock them up right now just for the fun of it!"

But screw v-brakes, I want DISCS! Maybe even strategically placed brick
walls.

I want the spokeless maglev rim with regenerative braking. Four second
wheel changes. Ultimately aero. And all those stupid artists that
leave out spokes when they draw a bike can now do so and retain
accuracy.

Here's my idea*. Everyone starts at the same zeroed energy level at
the start line (kinetic and potential), and ends at the same elevation
(delta potential energy is the same for everyone). All the power
during the race comes from the individual rider's efforts. The energy
from the regenerative braking is stored and can be used at the rider's
discretion. The little guys and climbers could use energy on the
descents and the big guys could use it climbing or any combination
thereof. Who would be the best? You'd have to balance fearlessness
(those uphills and downhills could get seriously faster), race sense &
timing, weight, natural cycling skills and physical abilities, etc.

There aren't any other sports that lend themselves so readily to this
natural boosting of the human potential. Other sports either add
outside energy, don't have a change in elevation to take advantage of
potential/kinetic, or don't have the means to transmit the energy back
to a motive force without totally changing the sport into something
entirely different.

My version retains all of the current riding/racing interest, extends
the potential field by allowing larger or smaller riders to compete,
boosts overall speed for the speed freaks, has more serious technology
for the gearheads, and promotes development of the most efficient form
of transportation out there.

R

* © 2005 RRV dba Regen Racing
(it's a book and screenplay I'm writing, and first publication of an
actual race format concept, in the hopes of retaining more of my rights
and possibility of making gobs of the ol' lucre, all rights reserved)

Not sure that I'd want to see more powerful brakes when I'm racing a
crit; I'd rather see people learn how to corner and ride safely in a
pack first. Safest mass start racing that I've ever done has been on
the track, when no rider has "decent" brakes.

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

Why should they have them?

V's are larger, heavier, come apart into more pieces, require two mounts on the
frame or fork instead of one and, perhaps most important, do NOT stop any
better.

Traction between tire and road is the limiting factor on the rear brake and the
center of gravity shift limits the front brake. The 15 year old calipers on my
road bike are enough to have the back tire dancing and the front biting in as I
do a mountain bike pose with my [censored] hanging back over the saddle. What more
could any brake do? Toss me over the bars? Nope, the front tire gives out first
(on real road anyway).

Now on a muddy MTB rim, sure, gimme the big mechanical claw with ALL the
leverage. Otherwise it's a non-solution for a non-problem.

Ron

NYC XYZ said:

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

RonSonic said:

Now on a muddy MTB rim, sure, gimme the big mechanical claw with ALL the
leverage. Otherwise it's a non-solution for a non-problem.

I have seen them (v brakes) used on tandems as well.

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

The quest continues....

Mostly because of the duffuculy of attaching the brake posts on light
weight carbon forks and light frame seat stays. Longer arms of v
brakes(really just a long armed side pull brake, nothing really 'new'😉,
makes for more force to brake but like a lot of things, v brakes ARE
stronger but that doesn't mean calipers are 'weak'. They stop and can
skid both tires w/o much problem.

Quoted message said:

TIA!

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

A good question, I think. My main road bike (Cannondale touring frame)
has canti studs, which allow canti brakes (I have LX) or V's. V brakes
require adapters to change the mechanical advantage of normal
caliper/canti levers. The brakes on this bike are excellent, somewhat
more powerful than the good double pivot calipers on my other bike. This
is probably because the calipers are long reach, which gives them more
flex. For small tires and thin seatstays, perhaps caliper brakes are
more rigid than cantis would be. Cantis/V's are much more practical for
using a range of tire sizes though.

Donald Munro said:

NYC XYZ said:

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

RonSonic said:

Now on a muddy MTB rim, sure, gimme the big mechanical claw with ALL the
leverage. Otherwise it's a non-solution for a non-problem.

I have seen them (v brakes) used on tandems as well.

I've used all sorts of brakes on tandems, but have found that the
lowly caliper (road) brake gives the best performance. There are
advantages to canti/V brakes, but there are some drawbacks as well.
For the typical road bike, you couldn't invent a better brake than the
caliper brake (or someone would have). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:45:10 -0700, Tim Lines <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

But screw v-brakes, I want DISCS! Maybe even strategically placed brick
walls.

Ten yards past the finish line - then you don't need cameras - just
peel everyone off and give places in inverse order of their peel
position. Yeah, somebody will claim they were passed in the ten yards
between line and wall, but you always have the boo birds.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, All:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

The quest continues....

TIA!

V-Brakes will spread the frame seat stays on most road bikes to the point
where they won't have anymore braking force than caliper brakes. Road
levers also don't have the correct geometry for v-brake activation.

Say, Tim, do I detect maybe the slightest trace of sarcasm?

I can lock both wheels with old fashion single pivot brakes. I rode a
bike with those old center-pull Mavic brakes that had a nice clean
setup and they operated BETTER than modern sidepulls as far as feel was
concerned. They too could lock both wheels at any speed.

Modern dual pivots can lock both wheels at any speed with half the
lever pressure.

V-brakes with only two fingers.

What are we seeing here? That brakes aren't improving - they're only
requiring less lever pressure to give maximum stopping power. And for
that you end up with a brake that is much closer to the rim. If you
break a spoke or bend a rim a little you can't ride the bike home
because the wheel will lock in the brake.

So perhaps those who are new to cycling ought to think that 100 years
of development is no longer leading to improvements but only to change.

I think that it's important to understand that a lot of newer
"developments" are not "improvements" in the performance of a bike, but
are changes designed to:

1) Improve marketing - for instance: there are good saddles on the
market for $60. There are $240 saddles that have no real improvement
other than they are 3 ounces lighter. Flashier design, small
improvement in weight - WAY more profit. And the thing is, of course,
since saddles are such a personal item, these expensive saddles will
work better for some people than the cheaper ones. I'd still prefer the
Vetta Concor-look-alike but you can't get them any more. These were a
little wider than the Selle San Marco Concor and were a lot cheaper.

2) Reduce WHOLESALE cost - a prime example of this is the "threadless"
fork. Without a doubt one of the worst modern changes yet. Threadless
forks have led to handlebars being 4" or more below saddle height. When
handlebars were 1" below saddle height as they belong, you could ride
the drops when you wanted to get 'aero'. Now the drops are 8" below
saddle height an only racers use them and often not even they do.
Several hand positions have been eliminated and also this has led to
threadless stems with large (very ugly) rises to get the bars up to
where you don't get neck cramps on a Sunday ride.

3) Change - most young people see change as "improvement". There's
nothing intrinsically wrong with this but it essentially destroys the
value of all old parts. Prime example: 1 1/8" headsets. Now there is
some utility to this - mountainbikes tear up 1" headsets pretty
regularly so they really do need a larger bearing. And why have two
headset sizes? So converting road bikes isn't that bad an idea.
Remember when they used to have two sizes of 1" headsets? One for
"un-machined" head tubes and one for machined head tubes? And you'd
ALWAYS get the wrong one when you bought a new headset.

NYC XYZ said:

Hi, All:

Seems to me that v-brakes have a much (or at least noticeably) better
stopping power than caliper brakes. So why don't racing bikes have
them? Apparently v-brakes have to have mounts built into the frame of
the bike, and racing bikes all use caliper brakes...but why?

V Brakes are a type of cantilever brake, they have issues, one is that
they run very close to the rim, so as pad material wears away, you need
to keep adjusting the cable tension, or put up with less braking
efficiency. They tend to push apart the seat stays, which means the
stays need to be built stronger, or require extra bracing. They are the
only choice where the tire and rim, are very wide, as the length of
caliper arms would make them too weak to work properly.

Calipers are light, mechanically less complex, and don't put stress on
the seat stays or forks, which means that the frame doesn't require
extra strength or bracing in that area. For road bikes where they try
to build them light, this works well. Calipers also don't need
adjusting as often, when new they can be set close to the rim, like a
V-brake, and move further away from the rim, requiring maybe one
adjustment between pad changes, rather then readjusting every few miles,
because they don't get mushy.

Technically, if by activating the front brake only, you can lift the
back wheel off the ground, you have all the braking you need, and
caliper brakes can do this quite handily, when working and adjusted
properly.

Although V-brakes are newer, they are intended for certain applications,
that doesn't make them best, even disc brakes are not perfect (too
heavy for a road bike), but are probably pretty good for mountain
bikes......

W

In rec.bicycles.racing Curtis L. Russell said:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:45:10 -0700, Tim Lines <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But screw v-brakes, I want DISCS! Maybe even strategically placed brick
walls.

Quoted message said:

Ten yards past the finish line - then you don't need cameras - just
peel everyone off and give places in inverse order of their peel
position. Yeah, somebody will claim they were passed in the ten yards
between line and wall, but you always have the boo birds.

Every year I hear from someone that wants to know why it is so
hard for road races to give 100% placement like mountain bike
races do. It's really pretty simple. The guy that runs the
dominant mountain bike series sets his finish line up so that
riders coming in two abreast are guaranteed to crash. The finish
chute is two lanes wide with a chicane. There is a guy in the
chute at the line telling people to slow down.

Being the cynical roadie I am I kept expecting someone to biff
the guy in the chute. But it didn't happen. People would brake
before the line rather than chance it for a gain of one place.

That would make for an interesting field sprint in a road event.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Modern dual pivots can lock both wheels at any speed with half the
lever pressure.

I am glad you can't but I sure can't. not everyone is a light rider or
never rides in the rain.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes

di said:

V-Brakes will spread the frame seat stays on most road bikes to the point
where they won't have anymore braking force than caliper brakes.

What is the magic that keeps this from happening to the seat stays of a
mountain bike? Usually there is not a significant difference between road
and mountain frames' seat stays (non-suspension, of course).

Quoted message said:

Road
levers also don't have the correct geometry for v-brake activation.

They could have (and some do). That is not the point.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all
_`\(,_ | mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so
(_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am
nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]

Quoting [email hidden] <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Not sure that I'd want to see more powerful brakes when I'm racing a
crit; I'd rather see people learn how to corner and ride safely in a
pack first.

The ability to detect sarcasm wouldn't hurt, too.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Tuesday, August.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

di said:

V-Brakes will spread the frame seat stays on most road bikes to the point
where they won't have anymore braking force than caliper brakes.

What is the magic that keeps this from happening to the seat stays of a
mountain bike?

size of tubes and tube wall thickness, but it's not magic, it's physics

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Road
levers also don't have the correct geometry for v-brake activation.

They could have (and some do). That is not the point.

but they don't

Tom Kunich said:

3) Change - most young people see change as "improvement". There's
nothing intrinsically wrong with this but it essentially destroys the
value of all old parts. Prime example: 1 1/8" headsets. Now there is
some utility to this - mountainbikes tear up 1" headsets pretty
regularly so they really do need a larger bearing. And why have two
headset sizes? So converting road bikes isn't that bad an idea.
Remember when they used to have two sizes of 1" headsets? One for
"un-machined" head tubes and one for machined head tubes? And you'd
ALWAYS get the wrong one when you bought a new headset.

You mean JIS versus ISO? Both are still current (I believe), but both
require a machined head tube.

Jasper