v-brake or cantis?

Nate Nagel said:

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio"

Indeed. Standard road levers + V-brakes = disaster. You have three
options:

1. Replace the V-brakes with traditional cantilevers.
2. Replace the levers with Dia-Compe's 287V model.
3. Use some sort of Travel Agent contraption.

Sheldon Brown, three cheers:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html#vbrake

Happy stopping.

Nate Nagel said:

Hi again,

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.) I see I can get a
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends? Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers? That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears. It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nate Nagel said:

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike.  PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio"

Very powerful--if you manage to reach the rim...no doubt. I'd avoid
riding the bike till this is sorted.

Quoted message said:

Indeed.  Standard road levers + V-brakes = disaster.  You have three
options:

1. Replace the V-brakes with traditional cantilevers.

That's the cheapest option.. Tektro Oryx are cheap--or even the
Nashbar clones. Don't forget hangars. $40 worth of bits.

Quoted message said:

2. Replace the levers with Dia-Compe's 287V model.

I really like the newer Tektro V model better ($25)--it's got super
comfy hoods--however, the bike likely has brifters, so one would need
shifters as well, likely bar ends. Not a bad setup--but a bit of work
and a good $100 of bits. Go this route if you for some reason don't
like the combo brifters--not likely I bet.

Quoted message said:

3. Use some sort of Travel Agent contraption.

Not a bad option for a road going cross bike. Vees really are pretty
sweet stoppers if you don't need mud clearance.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown, three cheers:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html#vbrake

Yup. Good link. We just solved a problem for the LBS wrench with that.
He had to size up on a link cable to be able to both set the pads
close enough and also be able to quick release the link cable. Cantis
can be voodoo for sure.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Nate Nagel said:

Hi again,

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.) I see I can get a
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends? Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers? That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears. It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Thanks, good to know there's another option. that would get rid of the
necessity to make new cables, at least. In your opinion, if that were
not a factor, which would you prefer, the stock center-pulls or the
mini-V's? They do look to be about the same price.

One site that listed them mentioned "One limitation is running fat tires
with this brake." Is that referring to MTB tires or could that possibly
be an issue with cyclocross or fat road tires?

thanks again for all the advice

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Apr 14, 7:52 pm, Nate Nagel <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi again,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.) I see I can get a
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends? Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers? That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears. It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Quoted message said:

You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Thanks, good to know there's another option. that would get rid of the
necessity to make new cables, at least. In your opinion, if that were
not a factor, which would you prefer, the stock center-pulls or the
mini-V's? They do look to be about the same price.

I chose a pair of 926s for one of my bikes _over_ cantis. Easier to
setup, no cable hangers needed, etc. I also put a set on inline cable
adjusters directly upstream of the brakes to make "fine tuning" for
slightly different rim widths easier.

Cantis might be preferable if you are concerned about fitting wide
tires _and_ fenders, since they give more clearance.

Quoted message said:

One site that listed them mentioned "One limitation is running fat tires
with this brake." Is that referring to MTB tires or could that possibly
be an issue with cyclocross or fat road tires?

I've used tires up to 38mm wide (measured width, the sidewalls say
41x622) without any issues (but not with fenders).

Quoted message said:

thanks again for all the advice

Enjoy the bike!

Quoted message said:

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Ozark Bicycle said:

Nate Nagel said:

Hi again,

Quoted message said:

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.) I see I can get a
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends? Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers? That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears. It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Or consider brakes that take "V" brake type pads. Yeah, they're thin
but they change in a minute and you don't have to futz with resetting
the brakes in three or four degrees of freedom. And they have a longer
brake face than conventional center pull cantilevers. Many make them,
from Shimano to Nashbar. You can get salmon pads if you want - I find
them universally noisy in this format, though.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Nate Nagel said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Apr 14, 7:52 pm, Nate Nagel <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Hi again,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike.  PO
>did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
>direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
>an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
>it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.)  I see I can get a
>set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
>for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends?  Or
>would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
>levers?  That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
>Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears.  It's got a Tiagra frontand
>105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
>but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Those have an arm length that's something like 70% of standard vees,
right? (and of course how does arm length exponentially increase
mechanical advantage)
How do you find the braking? Is is binary or manageable with the
(increased?) advantage?

I'm a newcomer to Vees as a user since September. I love them set up
right. Spring tension as much as possible and really good pad toe-in
to give modulation. Vees can work with no toe-in, but they have so
much more flavor if set up right.

Nate Nagel said:

Hi again,

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.) I see I can get a
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends? Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers? That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears. It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Are you sure your brakes, especially the cables, are corectly adjusted?

When the pads are new they should be almost in contact with the
rim, so you don't have to do much more than breathe on the levers to make
contact. As the pads wear out you may be able to bottom out the levers.
V-brakes needs to be adjusted quite often.

Tomas

landotter said:

On Apr 14, 10:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Apr 14, 10:14 pm, Nate Nagel <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Apr 14, 7:52 pm, Nate Nagel <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Hi again,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike. PO
>>did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
>>direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
>>an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
>>it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.) I see I can get a
>>set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
>>for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends? Or
>>would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
>>levers? That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
>>Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears. It's got a Tiagra front and
>>105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
>>but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
> than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
> priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
> work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Those have an arm length that's something like 70% of standard vees,
right? (and of course how does arm length exponentially increase
mechanical advantage)

Yes, ~70% of "standard" Vs.

Quoted message said:

How do you find the braking?

They work wonderfully well, with excellent modulation. And don't
underestimate the factory standard pads, they work just fine.
("Standard" Vs and well setup cantis do have higher absolute stopping
power, but that's only an issue on a loaded bike, IMO (I have Shimano
LX Vs on my touring bike), if it's an issue at all.)

Quoted message said:

Is is binary or manageable with the
(increased?) advantage?

"Increased"? I'm not sure what you are asking here (?).

Quoted message said:

I'm a newcomer to Vees as a user since September. I love them set up
right. Spring tension as much as possible and really good pad toe-in
to give modulation. Vees can work with no toe-in, but they have so
much more flavor if set up right.

Yes, they do require some care for best performance, but they are much
less fussy than cantis. IMO, the presence of poorly setup, cheap n'
cheesy Vs have given some people a bad taste of what can be an
excellent design when properly implemented (in both design and setup).

Ozark Bicycle said:

Nate Nagel said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Apr 14, 7:52 pm, Nate Nagel <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Hi again,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike.  PO
>did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
>direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
>an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
>it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.)  I see I can get a
>set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
>for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends?  Or
>would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
>levers?  That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
>Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears.  It's got a Tiagra frontand
>105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
>but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You might consider a pair of Tektro 926 "Mini-Vs". Easier to setup
than a canti brake, work well with 'road' levers and very reasonably
priced at ~$25/pr if purchased online (e.g., AEBike.com). And they
work well with the stock pads, no need to "Salmon-ize".

Quoted message said:

Thanks, good to know there's another option.  that would get rid of the
necessity to make new cables, at least.  In your opinion, if that were
not a factor, which would you prefer, the stock center-pulls or the
mini-V's?  They do look to be about the same price.

I chose a pair of 926s for one of my bikes _over_ cantis. Easier to
setup, no cable hangers needed, etc. I also put a set on inline cable
adjusters directly upstream of the brakes to make "fine tuning" for
slightly different rim widths easier.

Cantis might be preferable if you are concerned about fitting wide
tires  _and_ fenders, since they give more clearance.

In that case I might as well go with the cantis, since I *may* want to
fit fenders at some point (frame appears to have provisions for same)
the cable issue is not such a big deal as the PO also removed the
suicide levers as well (because they "didn't work" and "bottomed out"
- hmm, was that *after* he switched to v-brakes?) and I'm thinking I
might as well refit those at the same time (I did get them with the
purchase of the bike.) thanks for all the feedback

nate

Tomas Pedersen said:

Nate Nagel said:

Hi again,

Quoted message said:

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike.  PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.)  I see I can geta
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends?  Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers?  That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears.  It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Are you sure your brakes, especially the cables, are corectly adjusted?

Nope - actually the original provisions for fine tuning were
apparently in the suicide levers, which were removed (yes, I did leave
out a little info. in my previous post.) PO apparently adjusted them
so you could just barely disengage the noodles, but that leaves them a
little looser than I'd like for actual riding.

nate

Tomas Pedersen said:

Nate Nagel said:

Hi again,

Quoted message said:

well I'm the proud (hopefully) owner of a new (well, to me) bike.  PO
did one thing that I didn't like, he replaced the stock cantis with
direct pulls, makes for a hell of what I would call "pedal ratio" (from
an automotive standpoint) but I can bottom out the levers (haven't tried
it while riding yet, obviously, but still, not good.)  I see I can geta
set of Tektro Oryx (what the bike originally came with) cantis on eBay
for about $25, so I can obviously do that, any other recommends?  Or
would it be better to stick with the v-brakes and change my brake
levers?  That would add some complications as the brake levers are the
Shimano ones that you flick to shift gears.  It's got a Tiagra front and
105 rear derailleur if that makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

I'm tempted to just buy the center pull cantilevers and be done with it,
but am wondering if anyone else has any suggestions for an "upgrade."

Are you sure your brakes, especially the cables, are corectly adjusted?

Since it's not been stated clearly in any other post in this thread,
let me remind folks searching through the archives of 2045, that vee
brakes and canti/caliper brakes have two different cable pulls. Vee
brake levers pull more cable as the long arms offer the mechanical
advantage. Using caliper/canti levers with Vees won't pull enough
cable and you'll often reach the bar before the pad hits the rim.
Using Vee levers with caliper brakes, you'll have the opposite
problem--the brakes will engage quickly, but with very little power.
Cable discs are manufactured to use either pull ratio, at this date,
the vee pull being more common.

N8N said:

the cable issue is not such a big deal as the PO also removed the
suicide levers as well (because they "didn't work" and "bottomed out"
- hmm, was that *after* he switched to v-brakes?) and I'm thinking I
might as well refit those at the same time (I did get them with the
purchase of the bike.)

Do yourself a favor and leave them off. They got the name for a reason.

Peter Cole said:

N8N said:

the cable issue is not such a big deal as the PO also removed the
suicide levers as well (because they "didn't work" and "bottomed out"
- hmm, was that *after* he switched to v-brakes?) and I'm thinking I
might as well refit those at the same time (I did get them with the
purchase of the bike.)

Do yourself a favor and leave them off. They got the name for a reason.

That was the case for the old ones that attached to the brake lever,
because you had to pull straight up on them, and your hands would be
too far forward on the bar. Modern interrupter levers are pulled at
whatever angle you set them at and pose no more risk of your wrist
rolling off the bars than any flat bar lever. They also don't rob you
of 25% of your lever travel like the old ones. I have them on my CX
and touring bikes, mostly because they integrate barrel adjusters.
They work fine.

Peter Cole said:

N8N said:

the cable issue is not such a big deal as the PO also removed the
suicide levers as well (because they "didn't work" and "bottomed out"
- hmm, was that *after* he switched to v-brakes?) and I'm thinking I
might as well refit those at the same time (I did get them with the
purchase of the bike.)

Do yourself a favor and leave them off. They got the name for a reason.

The cxcross inline bar top brake levers are excellent. They should be
the rule rather than the exception on drop bar bikes. Not to be
confused with the turkey wing bolt ons of the 70s.

landotter said:

Peter Cole said:

N8N said:

the cable issue is not such a big deal as the PO also removed the
suicide levers as well (because they "didn't work" and "bottomed out"
- hmm, was that *after* he switched to v-brakes?) and I'm thinking I
might as well refit those at the same time (I did get them with the
purchase of the bike.)

Do yourself a favor and leave them off. They got the name for a reason.

The cxcross inline bar top brake levers are excellent. They should be
the rule rather than the exception on drop bar bikes. Not to be
confused with the turkey wing bolt ons of the 70s.

Those levers were fine if you did not mind giving up about one-half to
two-thirds of your braking power. They also made braking from the
"hoods" rather ineffective (at least for the person with small hands). 🙁

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman said:

landotter said:

Peter Cole said:

N8N wrote:

> the cable issue is not such a big deal as the PO also removed the
> suicide levers as well (because they "didn't work" and "bottomed out"
> - hmm, was that *after* he switched to v-brakes?) and I'm thinking I
> might as well refit those at the same time (I did get them with the
> purchase of the bike.)

Do yourself a favor and leave them off. They got the name for a reason.

The cxcross inline bar top brake levers are excellent. They should be
the rule rather than the exception on drop bar bikes. Not to be
confused with the turkey wing bolt ons of the 70s.

Those levers were fine if you did not mind giving up about one-half to
two-thirds of your braking power. They also made braking from the
"hoods" rather ineffective (at least for the person with small hands). 🙁

I've decided I like the new style ones, esp. for riding in traffic. if
I'm up on the bars and suddenly need to brake, they work just as well as
the regular levers and I don't have to suddenly rearrange my hands to
the hoods or drops before I can brake. Only issue is I need to figure
out how to mount my headlight; the suicide levers pretty much prohibit
using the headlight that I just bought as the mount interferes with the
cables. I don't know why it wasn't rotated 180 degrees from the way it
was designed, then it'd work fine.

I did get to ride the bike for a few miles today, and it was good.
Almost too easy to ride, not much of a workout 🙂 but it sure is good
for getting from here to there and back. Hopefully I'll be much quieter
for a while as I simply ride it when I feel like riding and nothing much
will require modification or adjustment (knock on wood)

Even better, rather than taking off by myself I convinced SWMBO to come
with me. Slowed me down some (OK, quite a bit, but you know, with a new
toy and left to my own devices I would have probably been going flat out
all the time which probably isn't the best plan on a new-to-me ride) but
she's been complaining about wanting to "do something to get in shape"
but hadn't found what that was - she claims to have actually enjoyed the
ride so this is a Good Thing. (don't ask me why she actually had a
pretty decent Trek crossover that she never rode while I didn't have a
decent bike until last week.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've decided I like the new style ones, esp. for riding in traffic. if
I'm up on the bars and suddenly need to brake, they work just as well as
the regular levers and I don't have to suddenly rearrange my hands to the
hoods or drops before I can brake. Only issue is I need to figure out how
to mount my headlight; the suicide levers pretty much prohibit using the
headlight that I just bought as the mount interferes with the cables. I
don't know why it wasn't rotated 180 degrees from the way it was designed,
then it'd work fine.

If they're the ones which mount independently from the drop levers, on the
top, they ain't suicide levers. They are a completely different beast (and
as you note rather better).

cheers,
clive

Clive George said:

If they're the ones which mount independently from the drop levers, on the
top, they ain't suicide levers. They are a completely different beast (and
as you note rather better).

Could I install these on my Novara Randoneee?

If yes....have a link to em?