Usual Suspect & Adolph [censored].

"Ray" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that
Adolph [censored] was

a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he also
provided his

own

Quoted message said:

link, from which he selectively snipped.

Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect
in his conclusion, but he stubbornly rejects our evidence
and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own link.

Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it
open to the

groups.

Quoted message said:

Was Adolf [censored] a vegetarian?

Sometimes. Records seem to indicate that he avoided meat for
periods of time, and that it was associated with a gastric
condition, but he was not a long-term vegetarian. It also
appears that during these times he fancied himself as a
great defender of animals, and even embraced the idea of
animal rights. This led him to pontificate and make threats
against those involved in animal research. Like many veg*ns,
he was hugely inconsistent, and had irrational delusions of
moral grandeur, but being *Adolph [censored]*, his were somewhat
more sinister that the usual loons we see here.

"Ray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Was Adolf [censored] a vegetarian?

this says not .html"]http://www.vegsource.com/berry/[censored].html

my question - is Sadam a meat eater?

John C

Ray said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that
Adolph [censored] was a vegetarian. I provided links, which he
discounted, he also provided his own link, from which he
selectively snipped.

Slow down. The link I provided had [censored]'s own quotes
and quotes from his secretary. The latter affirmed that
[censored] refused meat when it was offered, eating instead
only side dishes.

Quoted message said:

Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect
in his conclusion,

The two of you did no such thing. Quite the contrary. You're
relying on something which has been shown to be a red
herring. The quote upon which you rest your argument goes
*either* way: no lab results to *prove* *or* *disprove*. It
is also entirely beside the point, and a red herring: lab
results don't tell us who is or isn't a vegetarian anyway.

What do we have to go on with respect to [censored]'s diet? His
own words and those of his contemporaries.

[censored] said: "One may regret living at a period when it's
impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the
future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to
eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of
meat, he'll quickly choose the pear. That's his atavistic
instinct speaking."
- Adolf [censored]. December 28, 1941. Section 81, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share
the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they
must spare me from their meat."
- Adolf [censored]. January 12, 1942. Section 105, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used
to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a
meeting. … When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water
was enough."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an
apple, or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses.
There's an ancestral instinct there."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an
extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat."
- Adolf [censored]. April 25, 1942. Section 198, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to
perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire
hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and
an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian
diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf [censored]. July 8, 1942. Section 256, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. August 20, 1942. Section 293, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

Source: [censored]'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.

geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

His secretary said: "I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf
[censored]. He was a pleasant boss and a fatherly friend. I
deliberately ignored all the warning voices inside me and
enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end. …
It wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how
he did things."

Such things included his modest appetite, and the way
he ate only side dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*.

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without
meat was not worth living, and would often try to sneak
a little animal broth or fat into the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at
deception, would get very annoyed and then get tummy
ache. At the end he would only let Kruemel cook him
clear soup and mashed potato."
news.bbc.co.uk1800287.stmOpen ↗
[my emphasis]

Quoted message said:

but he stubbornly rejects our evidence

Does your "evidence" contain quotes about how much he
enjoyed meat, hunting, etc.? Does your "evidence" contain
quotes from those with firsthand knowledge of the man from
living with him? Traudl Junge, his secretary, had firsthand
knowledge. Read again her quote above, particularly the part
I emphasized to disabuse your error.

Quoted message said:

and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own link.

I explained my decision to leave the part about laboratory
results out already: "Laboratory results" do not indicate
one's primary diet. It can indicate deficiencies or
excesses, and in connection with a post mortem those
findings can point to organic causes or dietary causes. That
said, deficiencies can exist in vegetarians or non-
vegetarians and excesses can likewise exist in either group.
It's a red herring -- and irrelevant, as [Derk] kindly
pointed out.

Quoted message said:

Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it
open to the groups.

Was Adolf [censored] a vegetarian?

Yes. He said he was, and his secretary has confirmed it in
her account above. Read the BBC article for yourself.

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ray said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that
Adolph [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he
also provided his

own

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

link, from which he selectively snipped.

Slow down. The link I provided had [censored]'s own quotes and
quotes from his secretary. The latter affirmed that [censored]
refused meat when it was

offered,

Quoted message said:

eating instead only side dishes.

Quoted message said:

Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally
incorrect in his conclusion,

The two of you did no such thing. Quite the contrary.
You're relying on something which has been shown to be a
red herring. The quote upon which

you

Quoted message said:

rest your argument goes *either* way: no lab results to
*prove* *or*

*disprove*.

Quoted message said:

It is also entirely beside the point, and a red herring:
lab results don't

tell

Quoted message said:

us who is or isn't a vegetarian anyway.

What do we have to go on with respect to [censored]'s diet?
His own words and

those

Quoted message said:

of his contemporaries.

[censored] said: "One may regret living at a period when it's
impossible to form an idea of

the

Quoted message said:

shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one
thing I can

predict

Quoted message said:

to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece
of meat, he'll

quickly

Quoted message said:

choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf [censored]. December 28, 1941. Section 81, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share
the sheiks'

mutton

Quoted message said:

with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from
their meat."
- Adolf [censored]. January 12, 1942. Section 105, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I
used to drink four

pots

Quoted message said:

of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When
I became a

vegetarian,

Quoted message said:

a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an
apple, or a

cake, it's

Quoted message said:

never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral
instinct there."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an
extraordinary

antipathy

Quoted message said:

young children have to meat."
- Adolf [censored]. April 25, 1942. Section 198, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to
perspire much

less,

Quoted message said:

and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My
thirst, too,

decreased

Quoted message said:

considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I
required.

Vegetarian

Quoted message said:

diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf [censored]. July 8, 1942. Section 256, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. August 20, 1942. Section 293, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

Source: [censored]'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.

geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

His secretary said: "I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf
[censored]. He was a pleasant boss

and a

Quoted message said:

fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the
warning voices inside

me

Quoted message said:

and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the
bitter end. … It wasn't what he said, but the way he
said things and how he did

things."

Quoted message said:

Such things included his modest appetite, and the way
he ate only

side

Quoted message said:

dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*.

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without
meat was not

worth

Quoted message said:

living, and would often try to sneak a little animal
broth or fat

into

Quoted message said:

the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at
deception, would get

very

Quoted message said:

annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he would
only let Kruemel cook him clear soup and mashed
potato."
news.bbc.co.uk1800287.stmOpen ↗
[my emphasis]

Quoted message said:

but he stubbornly rejects our evidence

Does your "evidence" contain quotes about how much he
enjoyed meat,

hunting,

Quoted message said:

etc.? Does your "evidence" contain quotes from those with
firsthand

knowledge of

Quoted message said:

the man from living with him? Traudl Junge, his secretary,
had firsthand knowledge. Read again her quote above,
particularly the part I emphasized

to

Quoted message said:

disabuse your error.

Quoted message said:

and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own link.

I explained my decision to leave the part about laboratory
results out

already:

Quoted message said:

"Laboratory results" do not indicate one's primary
diet. It can

indicate

Quoted message said:

deficiencies or excesses, and in connection with a
post mortem those findings can point to organic
causes or dietary causes. That said, deficiencies can
exist in vegetarians or non-vegetarians and excesses
can likewise exist in either group. It's a red
herring -- and irrelevant, as [Derk] kindly pointed
out.

Quoted message said:

Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it
open to the

groups.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Was Adolf [censored] a vegetarian?

Yes. He said he was, and his secretary has confirmed it in
her account

above.

Quoted message said:

Read the BBC article for yourself.

I've read it, but you ignore all the other information to
the contrary made by people who actually 'knew the man'.

You ignore these in the same manner as you ignore the
conclusion from the very site from which you quote. This
clearly states:-

**[ The fact is, there are no actual laboratory results on
record that can

Quoted message said:

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>used to prove or disprove [censored]'s
>>>>Vegetarianism.]**

Read this one taken from the many reports on the net.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.html"]http://www.vegsource.com/berry/[censored].html.

You are wrong in your original statement that "[censored] was a
vegetarian"

It matters little either way, the importance is your
persistent denial of the truth.

"Ray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ray said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion
that Adolph [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he
also provided

his

Quoted message said:

own

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

link, from which he selectively snipped.

Slow down. The link I provided had [censored]'s own quotes
and quotes from

his

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

secretary. The latter affirmed that [censored] refused meat
when it was

offered,

Quoted message said:

eating instead only side dishes.

Quoted message said:

Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally
incorrect in his conclusion,

The two of you did no such thing. Quite the contrary.
You're relying on something which has been shown to be a
red herring. The quote upon which

you

Quoted message said:

rest your argument goes *either* way: no lab results to
*prove* *or*

*disprove*.

Quoted message said:

It is also entirely beside the point, and a red herring:
lab results

don't

Quoted message said:

tell

Quoted message said:

us who is or isn't a vegetarian anyway.

What do we have to go on with respect to [censored]'s diet?
His own words

and

Quoted message said:

those

Quoted message said:

of his contemporaries.

[censored] said: "One may regret living at a period when
it's impossible to form an idea

of

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

shape the world of the future will assume. But there's
one thing I can

predict

Quoted message said:

to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a
piece of meat, he'll

quickly

Quoted message said:

choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct
speaking."
- Adolf [censored]. December 28, 1941. Section 81, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to
share the sheiks'

mutton

Quoted message said:

with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from
their meat."
- Adolf [censored]. January 12, 1942. Section 105, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I
used to drink

four

Quoted message said:

pots

Quoted message said:

of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. .
When I became a

vegetarian,

Quoted message said:

a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat,
an apple, or a

cake, it's

Quoted message said:

never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral
instinct there."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an
extraordinary

antipathy

Quoted message said:

young children have to meat."
- Adolf [censored]. April 25, 1942. Section 198, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began
to perspire much

less,

Quoted message said:

and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My
thirst, too,

decreased

Quoted message said:

considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I
required.

Vegetarian

Quoted message said:

diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf [censored]. July 8, 1942. Section 256, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. August 20, 1942. Section 293, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

Source: [censored]'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.

geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

His secretary said: "I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf
[censored]. He was a pleasant boss

and a

Quoted message said:

fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the
warning voices

inside

Quoted message said:

me

Quoted message said:

and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the
bitter end. . It wasn't what he said, but the way
he said things and how he did

things."

Quoted message said:

Such things included his modest appetite, and the
way he ate only

side

Quoted message said:

dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*.

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life
without meat was not

worth

Quoted message said:

living, and would often try to sneak a little
animal broth or fat

into

Quoted message said:

the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at
deception, would get

very

Quoted message said:

annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he
would only let

Kruemel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cook him clear soup and mashed potato." new-new-Open ↗
s.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1800287.stm [my
emphasis]

Quoted message said:

but he stubbornly rejects our evidence

Does your "evidence" contain quotes about how much he
enjoyed meat,

hunting,

Quoted message said:

etc.? Does your "evidence" contain quotes from those
with firsthand

knowledge of

Quoted message said:

the man from living with him? Traudl Junge, his
secretary, had firsthand knowledge. Read again her quote
above, particularly the part I

emphasized

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

disabuse your error.

Quoted message said:

and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own
link.

I explained my decision to leave the part about
laboratory results out

already:

Quoted message said:

"Laboratory results" do not indicate one's primary
diet. It can

indicate

Quoted message said:

deficiencies or excesses, and in connection with a
post mortem

those

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

findings can point to organic causes or dietary
causes. That said, deficiencies can exist in
vegetarians or non-vegetarians and

excesses

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can likewise exist in either group. It's a red
herring -- and irrelevant, as [Derk] kindly pointed
out.

Quoted message said:

Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw
it open to the

groups.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Was Adolf [censored] a vegetarian?

Yes. He said he was, and his secretary has confirmed it
in her account

above.

Quoted message said:

Read the BBC article for yourself.

I've read it, but you ignore all the other information to
the contrary

made

Quoted message said:

by people who actually 'knew the man'.

You ignore these in the same manner as you ignore the
conclusion from the very site from which you quote. This
clearly states:-

**[ The fact is, there are no actual laboratory results on
record that can

Quoted message said:

be

Quoted message said:

>>>>>used to prove or disprove [censored]'s
>>>>>Vegetarianism.]**

Read this one taken from the many reports on the net.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.html"]http://www.vegsource.com/berry/[censored].html.

You are wrong in your original statement that "[censored] was
a vegetarian"

It matters little either way, the importance is your
persistent denial of the truth.

I think it is better to let some sleeping dogs sleep-and not
bring up whether [censored] was or wasn't-obviously he was a
very sick person-Kill people not animals...

Ray wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Read the BBC article for yourself.

I've read it, but you ignore all the other information to
the contrary made by people who actually 'knew the man'.

From your vegsource article: Lucas, drawing on her
experiences as a hotel chef in Hamburg during the 1930s,
remembered being called upon quite often to prepare
[censored]'s favorite dish, which was not a vegetarian one.

From my source which quotes [censored] himself: Question: On
May 30, 1937 The New York Times reported, "[censored] is a
vegetarian, ... although he occasionally relishes a slice
of ham and relieves the tediousness of his diet with such
delicacies as caviar...". How can such allegations of
[censored] "occasionally" eating meat be reconciled with the
apparent fact that [censored] was a vegetarian?

Answer: Whenever people make an extreme change in
diet it is entirely normal for them to
"occasionally" suffer from a lack of willpower
during which they will temporarily revert to their
old eating habits. As time goes by, the frequency of
their backsliding diminishes until eventually the
transition to their new diet is complete. It's a
natural weaning process: three steps forward for
every one step backward until the goal is reached.
Accordingly, there is nothing damning nor surprising
in any allegations that [censored] "occasionally" ate
meat, as was claimed in The New York Times article
dated 1937. Such unsubstantiated claims, if
accurate, merely indicate that [censored]'s transition
to vegetarianism was a routinely gradual one that
may not have reached completion until the 1940's,*
(by all accounts, [censored]'s lasting effort to go
vegetarian began in the 1930's). All things
considered, there is nothing to suggest that
[censored]'s vegetarianism was anything less than a
sincere struggle marked with honest failings in its
formative stages. *Notice that all of [censored]'s
vegetarian remarks quoted throughout this webpage
are from the 1940's.

First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment
in Hamburg to determine when she cooked for [censored]?
Second, did you go veg full stop, Raymond? Do most people?
No, they usually go through a weaning process. Even after
weaning, they g

Quoted message said:

You ignore these in the same manner as you ignore the
conclusion from the very site from which you quote. This
clearly states:-

**[ The fact is, there are no actual laboratory results on
record that can

Quoted message said:

be

Quoted message said:

>>>>>used to prove or disprove [censored]'s Vegetarianism.]**

Stop exaggerating. That's not *the* conclusion. As already
explained to you, it's a red herring. Science cannot
determine the components of one's diet simply through
"laboratory results," whatever that means.

Quoted message said:

Read this one taken from the many reports on the net.

I have. It's repeated around the internet. Many of the
issues your article raises are dealt with in the FAQ on the
page I linked. Perhaps you should read it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.html"]http://www.vegsource.com/berry/[censored].html.

You are wrong in your original statement that "[censored] was
a vegetarian"

Ipse dixit.

Quoted message said:

It matters little either way, the importance is your
persistent denial of the truth.

I'm not the one denying anything. [censored] called himself a
vegetarian, starting in 1937 (*your* source says as much:
'[censored] did not describe himself as a "vegetarian" until
1937'😉. Your source raises several red herrings and non
sequiturs. One of them is this: ...[O]ne could infer that
[censored] was not a true vegetarian from the poor state of his
health. I can show you overweight, flatulent, anemic, etc.,
vegetarians and non-vegetarians. Berry insinuates that all
vegetarian diets are healthy and all meat-containing diets
are unhealthy; nothing could be further from the truth. The
Berry then lists some of the maladies for which [censored]'s
doctor purportedly recommended abstaining from meat. By all
indications, and from his own words and the words of those
around him, he did just that starting in the 1930s and
gradually weaning himself off meat, for the most part, in
the 1940s.

I also think your source has a bit of a bias: Rynn Berry
is the historical advisor to the NAVS (North American
Vegetarian Society) and is on the Advisory Board of
Earth Save.

I remain unconvinced by your source's source. Berry's
primary source in objection to the "[censored] was a vegetarian"
is Robert Payne. Yet my source says, Historians Alan
Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably the
three most highly acclaimed [censored] biographers. Each of
their extensive [censored] biographies was written after Robert
Payne had published his speculative denial of [censored]’s
vegetarianism. Neither Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any
credence to Payne's unfounded theory. On the contrary, all
three concluded that [censored] became a vegetarian.

Berry is a polemicist and *all* his work is to defend the
militant vegetarian agenda (read "About the Author"😉. That
is also borne out in his prolific non sequiturs, red
herrings, and his complete confusion between diet and
dietary politics, such as: It is noteworthy that [censored],
this alleged vegetarian and lover of animals, had no
compunction about first testing the cyanide on his dog
Blondi. [This comes from the part about his and Eva Braun's
suicides.]

Suicide is a desperate measure, and is usually the
culmination of any number of mental illnesses (notably
depression). I found it amusing that Mr Berry's thesis would
contain such a digression. [censored] merely took those he
loved, Eva and Blondi, with him to avoid falling into enemy
(i.e., Russian) hands.

In totality, we're left with a sickly leader who was advised
sometime in the 1930s to abstain from meat. We have a chef
who'd cooked squab for him sometime in the 1930s. We have
some agreement in our sources that [censored] yo-yoed with
vegetarianism in the 1930s. We have his secretary who says
that at the time of her employment he ate only side dishes,
not meat. We have his own informally recorded statements
from the 1940s that he was vegetarian.

I'm convinced from the totality of evidence that he was.
He may not have been a perfect one (who is?), but his
inclinations, his support of AR, and the accounts of
those around him lend sufficient credibility that it
shouldn't be reflexively dismissed, not even by agenda-
driven sloths like you.

usual suspect wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment
in Hamburg to determine when she cooked for [censored]?
Second, did you go veg full stop, Raymond? Do most people?
No, they usually go through a weaning process. Even after
weaning, they g

Finishing up (phone): Even after weaning, they often go
through yo-yo splurges in which meat is again consumed. Most
people don't go vegetarian cold turkey. Even the information
from PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

usual suspect wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas'
employment in Hamburg to determine when she cooked for
[censored]?

No, neither can you.

Second, did you go veg full stop,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a
weaning process. Even after weaning, they g

Finishing up (phone):

Wrong number, but do carry on

Quoted message said:

Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges
in which meat is

again

Quoted message said:

consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey.
Even the

information from

Quoted message said:

PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.

I did go veg full stop. Absolutely no problem, and it was a
damn sight harder thirty odd years ago.

But that is of no importance.

The point is that you have stated that [censored] was a
vegetarian, bad move.

You can find nothing to support your claim other than the
reported words from [censored]'s own mouth. Even then you fail
to accept the conclusion.

Ask yourself, was [censored] a person you could trust to speak
the truth? You have, your entire assertion is based on what
he supposedly said. ([censored]'s Table Talk).

Simple fact:-

You associated [censored] with vegetarianism in order to
discredit the latter.

You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.
Clearly you should not have made the claim because nobody
believes a Vegan with egg on his face.

[END]

Old Coot Ray said:

Quoted message said:

<...>

Quoted message said:

First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment
in Hamburg to determine when she cooked for [censored]?

No, neither can you.

That would be the first step to discrediting the claim that
[censored] was a vegetarian, Ray. If she cooked squab for him in
1938 or 1939, then he was not a vegetarian. If she cooked
squab for him before 1937, when [censored] reportedly began his
transition to a vegetarian diet (not to mention a vegetarian
pseudophilosphy), then it's quite possible he was right.
You're dismissing things based on incomplete information.
I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-1937
eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with [censored], and
(c) the view of apparently all but one historian.

With respect to (b), please review my link again. Those
aren't recollected informal discussions, they were recorded
contemporaneously.

From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's
instructions, the secret conversations at [censored]'s
headquarters, from July 1941 to November 1944, were
all recorded for posterity.
geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Second, did you go veg full stop,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a
weaning process. Even after weaning, they g

Finishing up (phone):

Wrong number, but do carry on

It was the right number, just the wrong time for me (but not
for the caller).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges
in which meat is

again

Quoted message said:

consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey.
Even the

information from

Quoted message said:

PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.

I did go veg full stop.

Congratulations.

Quoted message said:

Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder
thirty odd years ago.

But that is of no importance.

Not as far as you're concerned, but what about [censored]?

Quoted message said:

The point is that you have stated that [censored] was a
vegetarian, bad move.

On what grounds?

Quoted message said:

You can find nothing to support your claim other than the
reported words from [censored]'s own mouth. Even then you fail
to accept the conclusion.

That was not the conclusion. That was part of the FAQ. There
is a section called "Closing Thoughts" on that page. It
doesn't leave the issue hanging as you would have others
believe: Closing Thoughts

"One may regret living at a period when it's
impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of
the future will assume. But there's one thing I can
predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future
will be vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66,
[censored]'S TABLE TALK

There is more than enough factual evidence --
regarding human health, world hunger, animal
welfare, the environment, and economics -- to easily
demonstrate that a vegetarian diet is the optimum
diet for humankind, now more than ever. It was the
one thing that [censored] actually had right! But, don't
let the surprising fact of his admirable
vegetarianism distract you from the horrible truth
about [censored]. There can be no denying nor defending
his monstrous crimes against humanity.

Quoted message said:

Ask yourself, was [censored] a person you could trust to speak
the truth? You have, your entire assertion is based on
what he supposedly said. ([censored]'s Table Talk).

Wrong, I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-1937
eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with [censored], and
(c) the view of apparently all but one historian.

Quoted message said:

Simple fact:-

You associated [censored] with vegetarianism in order to
discredit the latter.

Wrong. Vegetarianism is an issue which stands or falls on
its own merit. I pointed to authoritarianism of veg-ns and
animal rights supporters, and I noted the Nazis enacting the
most comprehensive AR laws at the time. If you have a bone
to pick, pick it with [censored] himself, Traudl Junge, Alan
Bullock, Ian Kershaw, John Toland, and others.

Quoted message said:

You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.

I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion
that [censored] was a vegetarian, or at the very least what is
today called "flexitarian" -- basically a vegetarian who
occasionally eats meat.

Quoted message said:

Clearly you should not have made the claim because nobody
believes a Vegan with egg on his face.

I am not the one making the claim. I just happen to think it
has more validity than the pro-vegetarian groups who seek to
distance themselves from [censored]. Historians Alan Bullock,
Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably the three most
highly acclaimed [censored] biographers. Each of their extensive
[censored] biographies was written after Robert Payne had
published his speculative denial of [censored]’s vegetarianism.
Neither Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to
Payne's unfounded theory. On the contrary, all three
concluded that [censored] became a vegetarian.

The irony of all of this, Ray, and I find it all hilarious,
is that you would have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him
if I'd pasted in his quotes without citing who said it.
You'd wet your pants with excitement. You'd be on the
bandwagon. You'd be such a yes-man than you'd not even say
"know" for fear of being misunderstood. You'd want him to
run in your constituency, especially when you learned of his
views on ethnic minorities. And you know that, too.

Quoted message said:

[END]

You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut long
enough.

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Old Coot Ray said:

Quoted message said:

<...>

>First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas'
>employment in Hamburg to determine when she cooked for
>[censored]?

No, neither can you.

That would be the first step to discrediting the claim
that [censored] was a vegetarian, Ray. If she cooked squab for
him in 1938 or 1939, then he was

not a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian. If she cooked squab for him before 1937,
when [censored]

reportedly

Quoted message said:

began his transition to a vegetarian diet (not to mention
a vegetarian pseudophilosphy), then it's quite possible he
was right. You're dismissing things based on incomplete
information. I'm basing my opinion on (a)

testimony

Quoted message said:

of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with
[censored], and (c)

the

Quoted message said:

view of apparently all but one historian.

With respect to (b), please review my link again. Those
aren't recollected informal discussions, they were
recorded contemporaneously.

From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions, the
secret conversations at [censored]'s headquarters, from July
1941 to November 1944, were all recorded for posterity.
geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Second, did you go veg full stop,

Quoted message said:

>Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a
>weaning process. Even after weaning, they g

Finishing up (phone):

Wrong number, but do carry on

It was the right number, just the wrong time for me (but
not for the

caller).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges
in which meat

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

again

Quoted message said:

consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey.
Even the

information from

Quoted message said:

PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.

I did go veg full stop.

Congratulations.

Quoted message said:

Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder
thirty odd years

ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But that is of no importance.

Not as far as you're concerned, but what about [censored]?

Quoted message said:

The point is that you have stated that [censored] was a
vegetarian, bad

move.

Quoted message said:

On what grounds?

Quoted message said:

You can find nothing to support your claim other than
the reported words from [censored]'s own mouth. Even then
you fail to accept the conclusion.

That was not the conclusion. That was part of the FAQ.
There is a section

called

Quoted message said:

"Closing Thoughts" on that page. It doesn't leave the
issue hanging as you

would

Quoted message said:

have others believe: Closing Thoughts

"Closing thoughts", sounds like a conclusion to me.

Quoted message said:

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to
form an idea of the shape the world of the future will
assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of
meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

There is more than enough factual evidence -- regarding
human health, world hunger, animal welfare, the
environment, and economics -- to easily demonstrate that a
vegetarian diet is the optimum diet for humankind, now
more than ever. It was the one thing that [censored] actually
had right! But, don't let the surprising fact of his
admirable vegetarianism distract you from the horrible
truth about [censored]. There can be no denying nor defending
his monstrous crimes against humanity.

Quoted message said:

Ask yourself, was [censored] a person you could trust to
speak the truth?

You

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have, your entire assertion is based on what he
supposedly said.

([censored]'s

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Table Talk).

Wrong, I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-1937
eyewitnesses,

(b)

Quoted message said:

recorded conversations with [censored], and (c) the view of
apparently all but

one

Quoted message said:

historian.

Quoted message said:

Simple fact:-

You associated [censored] with vegetarianism in order to
discredit the

latter.

Quoted message said:

Wrong. Vegetarianism is an issue which stands or falls on
its own merit. I pointed to authoritarianism of veg-ns and
animal rights supporters, and I

noted

Quoted message said:

the Nazis enacting the most comprehensive AR laws at the
time. If you have

a

Quoted message said:

bone to pick, pick it with [censored] himself, Traudl Junge,
Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, John Toland, and others.

Quoted message said:

You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.

<siippage restored later>

Quoted message said:

[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my
opinion that [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called
"flexitarian" --

basically

Quoted message said:

a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Clearly you should not have made the claim because
nobody believes a Vegan with egg on his

face.

Quoted message said:

I am not the one making the claim. I just happen to think
it has more

validity

Quoted message said:

than the pro-vegetarian groups who seek to distance
themselves from

[censored].

Quoted message said:

Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are
indisputably the three most highly acclaimed [censored]
biographers. Each of their extensive [censored] biographies
was written after Robert Payne had published his
speculative denial of [censored]’s vegetarianism. Neither
Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's
unfounded theory. On the contrary, all three concluded
that [censored] became a vegetarian.

The irony of all of this, Ray, and I find it all
hilarious, is that you

would

Quoted message said:

have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him if I'd pasted in
his quotes

without

Quoted message said:

citing who said it. You'd wet your pants with excitement.
You'd be on the bandwagon. You'd be such a yes-man than
you'd not even say "know" for fear

of

Quoted message said:

being misunderstood. You'd want him to run in your
constituency,

especially when

Quoted message said:

you learned of his views on ethnic minorities. And you
know that, too.

Quoted message said:

[END]

You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut
long enough.

Dead right,

You have proved that you should not have made the original
posting. Even Dutch will not agree with you!

You have nothing to substainiate your foolish claim, the
only thing you have proved is that you are a seriously Bad,
Bad, LOSER.

You have placed your own knackers in the rat trap, so don't
blame me because it hurts. LOSER.

Quoted message said:

veg-world.comhistorical.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my
opinion that [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called
"flexitarian" --

basically

Quoted message said:

a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.] ---usual suspect

You have proved that [censored] was a meat eating vegetarian:-)

I'll settle for that.

Knackered Senile Old Coot Ray wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[END]

You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut
long enough.

Dead right,

At least we found *some* area of agreement.

Quoted message said:

You have proved that you should not have made the original
posting.

Too bad you couldn't address any of the points I made
in my reply.

Quoted message said:

Even Dutch will not agree with you!

You think?

Quoted message said:

You have nothing to substainiate your foolish claim,

His recorded quotes on the matter. The testimony of his
contemporaries. All but one historian. What do you have? The
lone historian whose conclusion about [censored]'s diet was
speculative, vegetarian advocacy websites.

Quoted message said:

the only thing you have proved is that you are a seriously
Bad, Bad, LOSER.

Is that why you're attacking me rather than my reply? I'm
basing my opinion on
(a) testimony of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded
conversations with [censored], and (c) the view of
apparently all but one historian. The irony in all of
this, is that you would have agreed ONE-HUNDRED
PERCENT with him if I'd pasted in his quotes without
citing who said it.

Quoted message said:

You have placed your own knackers in the rat trap, so
don't blame me because it hurts. LOSER.

Why didn't you address my thoughtful response rather than
attack me personally?

Quoted message said:

veg-world.comhistorical.htmOpen ↗

From your "source": For the last *#$%!ng time, [censored] was
not a vegetarian Whatever else motivated the Fürher, it was
not a desire for a cruelty-free life style.

I'm vegetarian but it's not for a desire of a "cruelty-free"
lifestyle -- there's no such thing. Vegetarian diets are not
free of cruelty, however you define the term. Such notions
deny the antecedent, i.e., "I don't eat meat, so no animals
die." You've already ceded the CD issue, so you know animals
die in the course of your food and beer production. The
manner in which those animals die -- thrashing, slashing,
mutilation, poisoning, drowning, trapping, etc. -- you would
consider such deaths inhumane if they were performed in a
laboratory, yet you have no objections when it's for barley
for your lager.

Here's your cruelty-free lifesyle, Ray:
bds.org.ukLaurentperrier.htmOpen ↗

One more thing, there's an "urban legends" link on the page
you linked. I just tried to look up other UL sites and got
some interesting hits. Consider this from a list of famous
vegetarians: Adolf [censored] - according to several sources who
had close personal contact with him, including the architect
Albert Speer, his personal secretary Traudl Junge, and both
of his cooks, Constanze Manziarly and Marlene von Exner. All
of the respected biographies of [censored], including those by
Joachim Fest and Ian Kershaw, state that [censored] became a
steadfast vegetarian after the death of his niece Geli
Raubal in 1931. There is an urban legend that he
occasionally engaged in the consumption of pork, but no
member of his personal circle has confirmed this. nationmaster.comList ofOpen ↗
vegetarians

You're free to believe the veg-n societies rather historians
and eyewitnesses.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my
opinion that [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called
"flexitarian" --

basically

Quoted message said:

a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.] ---usual suspect

You have proved that [censored] was a meat eating vegetarian:-
)

I qualified with "at the very least;" I believe that he was
vegetarian along with most historians, those who lived
around him and observed his habits, and from his own words.

Quoted message said:

I'll settle for that.

You have so much in common with him, Ray: "I am no admirer
of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. August 20, 1942. Section 293,
[censored]'S TABLE TALK

"Hunters have no rights." -- Ray Slater. July 1,
2003. snipurl.com6ngcOpen ↗

"Ray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Old Coot Ray said:

><...>
>
>>First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas'
>>employment in Hamburg

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>determine when she cooked for [censored]?

No, neither can you.

That would be the first step to discrediting the claim
that [censored] was a vegetarian, Ray. If she cooked squab
for him in 1938 or 1939, then he

was

Quoted message said:

not a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian. If she cooked squab for him before 1937,
when [censored]

reportedly

Quoted message said:

began his transition to a vegetarian diet (not to
mention a vegetarian pseudophilosphy), then it's quite
possible he was right. You're

dismissing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things based on incomplete information. I'm basing my
opinion on (a)

testimony

Quoted message said:

of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations
with [censored], and

(c)

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

view of apparently all but one historian.

With respect to (b), please review my link again. Those
aren't

recollected

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

informal discussions, they were recorded
contemporaneously.

From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions,
the secret conversations at [censored]'s headquarters, from
July 1941 to November 1944, were all recorded for
posterity.
geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Second, did you go veg full stop,
>>Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through
>>a weaning

process.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Even after weaning, they g
>
>Finishing up (phone):

Wrong number, but do carry on

It was the right number, just the wrong time for me (but
not for the

caller).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo
>splurges in which meat

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

again
>consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey.
>Even the
information from
>PETA and other sources recommends a gradual
>transition.

I did go veg full stop.

Congratulations.

Quoted message said:

Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder
thirty odd years

ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But that is of no importance.

Not as far as you're concerned, but what about [censored]?

Quoted message said:

The point is that you have stated that [censored] was a
vegetarian, bad

move.

Quoted message said:

On what grounds?

Quoted message said:

You can find nothing to support your claim other than
the reported

words

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from [censored]'s own mouth. Even then you fail to accept
the conclusion.

That was not the conclusion. That was part of the FAQ.
There is a

section

Quoted message said:

called

Quoted message said:

"Closing Thoughts" on that page. It doesn't leave the
issue hanging as

you

Quoted message said:

would

Quoted message said:

have others believe: Closing Thoughts

"Closing thoughts", sounds like a conclusion to me.

Quoted message said:

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible
to form an idea of the shape the world of the future
will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to
eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

There is more than enough factual evidence -- regarding
human health, world hunger, animal welfare, the
environment, and economics -- to easily demonstrate that
a vegetarian diet is the optimum diet for humankind, now
more than ever. It was the one thing that [censored]
actually had right! But, don't let the surprising fact
of his admirable vegetarianism distract you from the
horrible truth about [censored]. There can be no denying nor
defending his monstrous crimes against humanity.

Quoted message said:

Ask yourself, was [censored] a person you could trust to
speak the truth?

You

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have, your entire assertion is based on what he
supposedly said.

([censored]'s

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Table Talk).

Wrong, I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-
1937 eyewitnesses,

(b)

Quoted message said:

recorded conversations with [censored], and (c) the view of
apparently all

but

Quoted message said:

one

Quoted message said:

historian.

Quoted message said:

Simple fact:-

You associated [censored] with vegetarianism in order to
discredit the

latter.

Quoted message said:

Wrong. Vegetarianism is an issue which stands or falls
on its own merit.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pointed to authoritarianism of veg-ns and animal rights
supporters, and

I

Quoted message said:

noted

Quoted message said:

the Nazis enacting the most comprehensive AR laws at the
time. If you

have

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

bone to pick, pick it with [censored] himself, Traudl Junge,
Alan Bullock,

Ian

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Kershaw, John Toland, and others.

Quoted message said:

You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.

<siippage restored later>

Quoted message said:

[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my
opinion that [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called
"flexitarian" --

basically

Quoted message said:

a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Clearly you should not have made the claim because
nobody believes a Vegan with egg on his

face.

Quoted message said:

I am not the one making the claim. I just happen to
think it has more

validity

Quoted message said:

than the pro-vegetarian groups who seek to distance
themselves from

[censored].

Quoted message said:

Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland
are indisputably the three most highly acclaimed [censored]
biographers. Each of their extensive [censored] biographies
was written after Robert Payne had published his
speculative denial of [censored]'s vegetarianism. Neither
Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to
Payne's unfounded theory. On the contrary, all three
concluded that [censored] became a vegetarian.

The irony of all of this, Ray, and I find it all
hilarious, is that you

would

Quoted message said:

have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him if I'd pasted
in his quotes

without

Quoted message said:

citing who said it. You'd wet your pants with
excitement. You'd be on

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bandwagon. You'd be such a yes-man than you'd not even
say "know" for

fear

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

being misunderstood. You'd want him to run in your
constituency,

especially when

Quoted message said:

you learned of his views on ethnic minorities. And you
know that, too.

Quoted message said:

[END]

You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut long
enough.

Dead right,

You have proved that you should not have made the original
posting. Even Dutch will not agree with you!

You have nothing to substainiate your foolish claim, the
only thing you

have

Quoted message said:

proved is that you are a seriously Bad, Bad, LOSER.

You have placed your own knackers in the rat trap, so
don't blame me

because

Quoted message said:

it hurts. LOSER.

Quoted message said:

veg-world.comhistorical.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my
opinion that [censored]

was a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called
"flexitarian" --

basically

Quoted message said:

a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.] ---usual
suspect

You have proved that [censored] was a meat eating vegetarian:-
)

I'll settle for that.

sorry suspect-I agree with Ray- [censored] was a meat eating
person who was mostly vegetarian-in his early life he was
ate tons of meat...Like when he wrote Mein Kampf-regardless
he was a very sick wacko.

While it is true that [censored]'s doctors put him on a
vegetarian diet to cure him of flatulence and a chronic
stomach disorder, his biographers such as Albert Speer,
Robert Payne, John Toland, et al, have attested to his
liking for ham sausages and other cured meats. Even Spencer
says that [censored] was a vegetarian from only 1931 on: "It
would be true to say that up to 1931, he preferred a
vegetarian diet, but on some occasions would deviate from
it." He committed suicide in the bunker when he was 56 in
1945; that would have given him 14 years as a vegetarian,
but we have the testimony to the contrary of the woman chef
who was his personal cook in Hamburg during the late 1930s -
Dione Lucas. In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she
records that his favorite dish - the one that he customarily
requested - was stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to
spoil your appetite for stuffed squab, but you might be
interested to know that it was a great favorite with
ca. [censored], who dined in the hotel often."

Michael Balarama wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

sorry suspect-I agree with Ray- [censored] was a meat eating
person who was mostly vegetarian-in his early life he was
ate tons of meat...

That begs a few simple (and respectful) questions.

1. Are you vegetarian?
2. How old were you when you last ate meat?
3. What's the time period during which one must abstain from
meat 100% before one is even to be considered a
vegetarian?

I didn't realize there were cut-offs, like if you abstained
from meat for 10-15 years you weren't yet vegetarian. I also
didn't realize one is judged solely on what one ate "in his
early life" as opposed to what he ate predominantly in the
time period in question. Under that rule, most American and
British vegetarians aren't vegetarians -- nevermind those
who ever fall off the bandwagon in a moment of temptation.

Quoted message said:

Like when he wrote Mein Kampf-regardless he was a very
sick wacko.

That isn't the issue here. During the time period in
question, from 1937 to his death, he did much worse by
actually committing atrocities (rather than writing) and
speeding up the Final Solution. The pen is not always
mightier than the sword (or the gas chamber).

Quoted message said:

While it is true that [censored]'s doctors put him on a
vegetarian diet to cure him of flatulence and a chronic
stomach disorder, his biographers such as Albert Speer,
Robert Payne, John Toland, et al,

Payne is the only one of those historians who speculated
that [censored] never "went" vegetarian. See below for citation.

Quoted message said:

have attested to his liking for ham sausages and other
cured meats.

If "liking for" ham, sausages, and other meats is the
standard, how many veg-ns are really veg-n? How many times
have I asked people in AFV about how sincere they can be
about detesting animal flesh while longing for recipes for
meat substitutes and for such fake meat products that have
proliferated in even mainstream grocery stores?

Quoted message said:

Even Spencer says that [censored] was a vegetarian from only
1931 on: "It would be true to say that up to 1931, he
preferred a vegetarian diet, but on some occasions would
deviate from it."

How many veg-ns lapse and occasionally eat something non-veg-
n? I don't think lapses define people -- those are
deviations from norms. What was [censored]'s norm at the time
period in question?

Traudl Junge was just 22-years-old when [censored]
selected the slim blonde from a pool of hundreds of
young applicants to become one of his secretaries,
in December 1942. As Soviet troops began their
advance on Berlin in April 1945, Mrs. Junge - then
Miss Humps - followed her boss into the relative
safety of the bunker beneath the chancellery. It was
here on 28 April, as the bunker shook with each
explosion outside, she took down what was to be the
final document of the Third Reich, [censored]'s last
will and testament. Two days later, [censored] and his
newly wed, Eva Braun, committed suicide.

"I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf [censored]. He was a
pleasant boss and a fatherly friend. I deliberately
ignored all the warning voices inside me and enjoyed
the time by his side almost until the bitter end. …
It wasn't what he said, but the way he said things
and how he did things."

Such things included his modest appetite, and the
way he ate only side dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING
MEAT*. [my emphasis]

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without
meat was not worth living, and would often try to
sneak a little animal broth or fat into the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at
deception, would get very annoyed and then get tummy
ache. At the end he would only let Kruemel cook him
clear soup and mashed potato."
geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

From the same link: Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw,
and John Toland are indisputably the three most highly
acclaimed [censored] biographers. Each of their extensive
[censored] biographies was written after Robert Payne had
published his speculative denial of [censored]’s vegetarianism.
Neither Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to
Payne's unfounded theory. On the contrary, all three
concluded that [censored] became a vegetarian.

Quoted message said:

He committed suicide in the bunker when he was 56 in 1945;
that would have given him 14 years as a vegetarian,

What's the cut off date? I'm curious if I'm vegetarian
since I ate a lot of meat as a child, abstained from it for
a few years, gradually ate more meat, and then abstained
again. Do I get credit for "time served" or will I ever get
to join the club?

Quoted message said:

but we have the testimony to the contrary of the woman
chef who was his personal cook in Hamburg during the late
1930s - Dione Lucas.

If you read the start of the thread, I addressed that and
asked Raymond if he knew what years. The quotes from [censored]
used to demonstrate his affinity with vegetarianism are from
the 1940s. So we're back to, How long must one abstain from
meat to be considered a vegetarian?

Quoted message said:

In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she records that
his favorite dish - the one that he customarily requested
- was stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to spoil your
appetite for stuffed squab, but you might be interested to
know that it was a great favorite with
Mr. [censored], who dined in the hotel often."

All the quotes are from a subsequent period of [censored]'s life
(1940s). That means after he ate Lucas' squab.

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to
form an idea of the shape the world of the future will
assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of
meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of
meat, he'll quickly choose the pear. That's his atavistic
instinct speaking."
- Adolf [censored]. December 28, 1941. Section 81, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share
the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they
must spare me from their meat."
- Adolf [censored]. January 12, 1942. Section 105, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used
to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a
meeting. … When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water
was enough."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an
apple, or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses.
There's an ancestral instinct there."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an
extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat."
- Adolf [censored]. April 25, 1942. Section 198, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to
perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire
hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and
an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian
diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf [censored]. July 8, 1942. Section 256, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. August 20, 1942. Section 293, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

Source: [censored]'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.
Available at Amazon and at Barnes And Noble.

Your argument comes down to how long one must abstain (100%)
from meat before one is a vegetarian. Be careful in defining
the term lest you disqualify even yourself as one.

PS: What in the world is wrong with the Astros? A four-game
sweep in Cincy? Geez.

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Balarama wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

sorry suspect-I agree with Ray- [censored] was a meat eating
person who was mostly vegetarian-in his early life he
was ate tons of meat...

That begs a few simple (and respectful) questions.

1. Are you vegetarian?
2. How old were you when you last ate meat?
3. What's the time period during which one must abstain
from meat 100%

before

Quoted message said:

one is even to be considered a vegetarian?

I didn't realize there were cut-offs, like if you
abstained from meat for

10-15

Quoted message said:

years you weren't yet vegetarian. I also didn't realize
one is judged

solely on

Quoted message said:

what one ate "in his early life" as opposed to what he ate
predominantly

in the

Quoted message said:

time period in question. Under that rule, most American
and British

vegetarians

Quoted message said:

aren't vegetarians -- nevermind those who ever fall off
the bandwagon in a moment of temptation.

Quoted message said:

Like when he wrote Mein Kampf-regardless he was a very
sick wacko.

That isn't the issue here. During the time period in
question, from 1937

to his

Quoted message said:

death, he did much worse by actually committing atrocities
(rather than

writing)

Quoted message said:

and speeding up the Final Solution. The pen is not always
mightier than

the

Quoted message said:

sword (or the gas chamber).

Quoted message said:

While it is true that [censored]'s doctors put him on a
vegetarian diet to

cure

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder, his
biographers such

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Albert Speer, Robert Payne, John Toland, et al,

Payne is the only one of those historians who speculated
that [censored] never "went" vegetarian. See below for
citation.

Quoted message said:

have attested to his liking for ham sausages and other
cured meats.

If "liking for" ham, sausages, and other meats is the
standard, how many

veg-ns

Quoted message said:

are really veg-n? How many times have I asked people in
AFV about how

sincere

Quoted message said:

they can be about detesting animal flesh while longing for
recipes for

meat

Quoted message said:

substitutes and for such fake meat products that have
proliferated in even mainstream grocery stores?

Quoted message said:

Even Spencer says that [censored] was a vegetarian from only
1931 on: "It would be true to say that up to 1931,

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

preferred a vegetarian diet, but on some occasions would
deviate from

it."

Quoted message said:

How many veg-ns lapse and occasionally eat something non-veg-
n? I don't

think

Quoted message said:

lapses define people -- those are deviations from norms.
What was [censored]'s

norm

Quoted message said:

at the time period in question?

Traudl Junge was just 22-years-old when [censored] selected
the slim blonde from a pool of hundreds of young
applicants to become one of his secretaries, in December
1942. As Soviet troops began their advance on Berlin in
April 1945, Mrs. Junge - then Miss Humps - followed her
boss into the relative safety of the bunker beneath the
chancellery. It was here on 28 April, as the bunker shook
with each explosion outside, she took down what was to be
the final document of the Third Reich, [censored]'s last will
and testament. Two days later, [censored] and his newly wed,
Eva Braun, committed suicide.

"I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf [censored]. He was a
pleasant boss and a fatherly friend. I deliberately
ignored all the warning voices inside me and enjoyed the
time by his side almost until the bitter end. … It wasn't
what he said, but the way he said things and how he did
things."

Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he
ate only side dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*. [my
emphasis]

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without meat
was not worth living, and would often try to sneak a
little animal broth or fat into the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at deception,
would get very annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end
he would only let Kruemel cook him clear soup and mashed
potato." geocities.comhitlerwasavegetarianOpen ↗

From the same link: Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw,
and John Toland are indisputably the three most highly
acclaimed [censored] biographers. Each of their extensive
[censored] biographies was written after Robert Payne had
published his speculative denial of [censored]’s
vegetarianism. Neither Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave
any credence to Payne's unfounded theory. On the
contrary, all three concluded that [censored] became a
vegetarian.

Quoted message said:

He committed suicide in the bunker when he was 56 in
1945; that would

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

given him 14 years as a vegetarian,

What's the cut off date? I'm curious if I'm vegetarian
since I ate a lot

of meat

Quoted message said:

as a child, abstained from it for a few years, gradually
ate more meat,

and then

Quoted message said:

abstained again. Do I get credit for "time served" or will
I ever get to

join

Quoted message said:

the club?

Quoted message said:

but we have the testimony to the contrary of the woman
chef who was his personal cook in Hamburg during

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

late 1930s - Dione Lucas.

If you read the start of the thread, I addressed that and
asked Raymond if

he

Quoted message said:

knew what years. The quotes from [censored] used to
demonstrate his affinity

with

Quoted message said:

vegetarianism are from the 1940s. So we're back to, How
long must one

abstain

Quoted message said:

from meat to be considered a vegetarian?

Quoted message said:

In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she records
that his favorite dish - the one that he customarily
requested -

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to spoil your
appetite for

stuffed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a
great favorite

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mr. [censored], who dined in the hotel often."

All the quotes are from a subsequent period of [censored]'s
life (1940s). That

means

Quoted message said:

after he ate Lucas' squab.

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to
form an idea of

the

Quoted message said:

shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one
thing I can

predict

Quoted message said:

to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. November 11, 1941. Section 66, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece
of meat, he'll

quickly

Quoted message said:

choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf [censored]. December 28, 1941. Section 81, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share
the sheiks'

mutton

Quoted message said:

with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from
their meat."
- Adolf [censored]. January 12, 1942. Section 105, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I
used to drink four

pots

Quoted message said:

of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When
I became a

vegetarian,

Quoted message said:

a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an
apple, or a

cake, it's

Quoted message said:

never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral
instinct there."
- Adolf [censored]. January 22, 1942. Section 117, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an
extraordinary

antipathy

Quoted message said:

young children have to meat."
- Adolf [censored]. April 25, 1942. Section 198, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to
perspire much

less,

Quoted message said:

and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My
thirst, too,

decreased

Quoted message said:

considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I
required.

Vegetarian

Quoted message said:

diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf [censored]. July 8, 1942. Section 256, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a
vegetarian."
- Adolf [censored]. August 20, 1942. Section 293, [censored]'S
TABLE TALK

Source: [censored]'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.
Available at Amazon

and at

Quoted message said:

Barnes And Noble.

Your argument comes down to how long one must abstain
(100%) from meat

before

Quoted message said:

one is a vegetarian. Be careful in defining the term lest
you disqualify

even

Quoted message said:

yourself as one.

As ex legal person-all your quotes about [censored] have to be
verified-that means another source much say subatanially the
same thing or they would not be admissible in court-just hearsay...personally-
I don't like to give [censored] vegetarian credit- or other bad
people-I guess like Stalin and bin Laden -they however are
meat heads...I would rather hear talk about musicians and
stars of vegetarian persuasion.

Quoted message said:

PS: What in the world is wrong with the Astros? A four-
game sweep in

Cincy? Geez. I guess they were born to lose....they are
fun to watch on TV ...that Clemens is a loose
cannon...ask Piazza

Michael Balarama wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

As ex legal person-all your quotes about [censored] have to be
verified-that means another source much say subatanially
the same thing or they would not be admissible in court-
just hearsay...

Source: [censored]'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.

From my link, if you'd bothered reading it: From the
publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions, the secret
conversations at [censored]'s headquarters, from July 1941 to
November 1944, were all recorded for posterity.

Such recordings do not fall under hearsay rules, even
through second-person parties. Recordings, as you know, are
an exception to the hearsay rule and are allowed to be
introduced under several scenarios, such as when the person
who made the recorded statement is dead or otherwise
incapicitated or when recordings were made by a second-
person (such as a police officer) and are used to refresh
his or her memory.

Continuing with the above...

This extraordinary document is the result. In the
relaxed atmosphere of his inner circle, [censored]
talked freely about his aims, his early life, his
plans for world conquest, and a new German empire. …
This book is he most significant record of [censored]'s
mind and character in existence. … It must be read,
to understand the inner workings of a mind capable
of genocide. A rare and revealing look into a
repellent mind.

"This book remains the only complete and consecutive
presentation of an important historical document…the
official record of [censored]'s 'table talk' as uttered
at the height of his success. It is surely necessary
reading for students of Nazism and the Second World
War." - Hugh Trevor-Roper. Oxford, Spring 2000.
[Hugh Trevor-Roper worked for British Intelligence
during the Second World War. His official
investigation into [censored]'s death was later
published as THE LAST DAYS OF [censored].]

Quoted message said:

personally-I don't like to give [censored] vegetarian credit-
or other bad people-

Does that stem from the actual evidence in front of you or
is it just your repulsion of the individual(s) in question?

Quoted message said:

I guess like Stalin and bin Laden -they however are meat
heads...

I appreciate your reasons for vegetarianism, but those
reasons are not universally shared or held. What does one's
diet have to do with behavior? Many peace activists eat
meat. Many great humanitarians eat meat. On the flip side,
vegetarians are just as capable as anyone else of committing
atrocious acts against individuals or entire groups of
people. That includes vegan parents like the Swintons who
nearly starved their children to death, and it includes
vegetarian Hindus in India who persecute Christians; see the
following link if you're not aware of that. pers-pers-Open ↗
ecution.org/news/In_Depth/Breaking_news_202.htm

Quoted message said:

I would rather hear talk about musicians and stars of
vegetarian persuasion.

Why? What do they know about nutrition, longevity, etc.? If
anything, musicians are the last people to trust about
lifestyle issues.

pathguy.comrockstar.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PS: What in the world is wrong with the Astros? A four-
game sweep in

Cincy? Geez.

Quoted message said:

I guess they were born to lose....they are fun to watch on
TV ...that Clemens is a loose cannon...ask Piazza

Their rallies *are* fun to watch. It's all the coming up
short after nine innings or blowing leads late in games that
worries me.

"Ray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that
Adolph [censored] was

a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian.

Maybe "usual suspect" IS Adolf [censored], or, the result of
some kind of weird Nazi experiment? 😉

That could explain a lot.

John C

"John Coleman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Rdvtc.145$0e2.75@newsfe4-gui...

Quoted message said:

"Ray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that
Adolph [censored]

was

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian.

Maybe "usual suspect" IS Adolf [censored], or, the result of
some kind of

weird

Quoted message said:

Nazi experiment? 😉

That could explain a lot.

=====================
How's that explain your ignorance and stupidity?

Quoted message said:

John C

Fruity Poofter said:

Quoted message said:

In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that
Adolph [censored] was

a

Quoted message said:

vegetarian.

Maybe "usual suspect" IS Adolf [censored],

Adolf [censored] committed suicide on 30 April 1945. his-his-Open ↗
tory1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blhitler.htm

Quoted message said:

or, the result of some kind of weird Nazi experiment? 😉

The Nazis' demise pre-dated my birth by a matter of decades.
Their demise occurred even before my mother's birth. Idiot.

Quoted message said:

That could explain a lot.

Time to invoke Godwin.

Etter>

Quoted message said:

How's that explain your ignorance and stupidity?

Why don't you learn to write proper English before calling
others ignorant Rick?

John C