Using power for racing

acoggan said:

Yes, I believe that the version of the PowerControl with the output port simply "streams" the raw data to the special SRM software running on the desktop/laptop computer. 'Biker-linz' might be a better person to ask, though, as I've never actually used an SRM system with this option.

I've used it, just so long ago, i'd forgotten! now i need to recall what was being tested!

ric

AndROOb said:

My NP over the 20 miles was 235w(I think), and our official finish time was 52:17. Not too bad for the first event of the season.

The file is a CP file, let me know if you need the PT(csv) file.

Nice work!!

And thanks for attaching the file. I'm planning to order Cycling Peaks but haven't gotten around to it just yet. If you don't mind attaching the .csv - I'd love to look at it. But hopefully I'll have CP soon.

When I get outside (when the snow melts) and start into my serious bike training - I may have some of my own files to share. Right now my files are a little boring because it's easier to hold to a prescribed power on the trainer.

My target race is Ironman Lake Placid so many of my training rides will be L2 & L3 stuff. But I know when I get Cycling Peaks I'll want to do a few group rides (hammer on the up hills, coast in the peleton on the downs, take a turn a front, etc.) to see the variations and get a feel for how those type of rides translate to NP.

I wish you continued luck in your racing!

Pad

padawan said:

Nice work!!

And thanks for attaching the file. I'm planning to order Cycling Peaks but haven't gotten around to it just yet. If you don't mind attaching the .csv - I'd love to look at it. But hopefully I'll have CP soon.

I have just realised that I'm unable to put up a .csv file, as I didn't back up the CP file on the powertap software. Sorry padawan, although this should be a good reason/prompt to download CP : )

padawan said:

I wish you continued luck in your racing!

Pad

Thanks, and good luck with the Ironman @ Lake Placid. I would be interested to see that file.

AndROOb said:

I have just realised that I'm unable to put up a .csv file, as I didn't back up the CP file on the powertap software. Sorry padawan, although this should be a good reason/prompt to download CP : )

All is not lost: CyclingPeaks both imports and exports a variety of file types, including the .csv format used by PowerTap.

acoggan said:

All is not lost: CyclingPeaks both imports and exports a variety of file types, including the .csv format used by PowerTap.

Thanks Andy, I should've realised this was a possibility 🙄

Hey Padawan, as requested............. a .csv file.

AndROOb said:

Thanks Andy, I should've realised this was a possibility 🙄

Hey Padawan, as requested............. a .csv file.

hey

i just looked at your file and one thing really stood out to me.

Did you really only get a 25min warmup for a TT???

TT's require the most preperation as you go hard from the gun, and you waste more energy until you are fully warmed up.

Maybe there was another file...?

VG

PSUcycling said:

Did you really only get a 25min warmup for a TT???

TT's require the most preperation as you go hard from the gun, and you waste more energy until you are fully warmed up.

Good luck backing that up with any proof...

Scott

scotmart said:

Good luck backing that up with any proof...

Scott

how did that comment add to this conversation in any way?

I base that on my experience, and my coaches experiences.

Do you need to know my coaches credentials? Masters in Kinesiology, 20+ years racing, 10 years coaching etc. etc.. I can go on, but I won't.

I'm just offering my 2 cents.

PSUcycling said:

how did that comment add to this conversation in any way?

I base that on my experience, and my coaches experiences.

Do you need to know my coaches credentials? Masters in Kinesiology, 20+ years racing, 10 years coaching etc. etc.. I can go on, but I won't.

I'm just offering my 2 cents.

It added just as much as your previous comment.

It's fine to present your own experience, but that's all it is. There is zero evidence that time trials require a longer warmup (whether or not any warm up at all is beneficial for efforts over 5-7 minutes long is even debatable).

Warm-ups are very individual. There are coaches more qualified than yours who prescribe very short warm-ups, and those that prescribe longer. Which of course is totally irrelevent. Warm-ups, like many aspects of cycling training, are based more on tradition rather than effect.

My 2 cents.

Scott

PSUcycling said:

hey

TT's require the most preperation as you go hard from the gun, and you waste more energy until you are fully warmed up.

VG

I didn't check the file, but assuming it's a 25, the first few minutes will be @ or below threshold.

scotmart said:

It added just as much as your previous comment.

It's fine to present your own experience, but that's all it is. There is zero evidence that time trials require a longer warmup (whether or not any warm up at all is beneficial for efforts over 5-7 minutes long is even debatable).

Warm-ups are very individual. There are coaches more qualified than yours who prescribe very short warm-ups, and those that prescribe longer. Which of course is totally irrelevent. Warm-ups, like many aspects of cycling training, are based more on tradition rather than effect.

My 2 cents.

Scott

no that comment did not, what did any one learn from that?

"It's fine to present your own experience, but that's all it is."
-When did I claim it anything other than? If it is fine, then why be rude?

your second comment, however was very good. You presented some evidence or data to back up your original statement.

I don't want to getting to some pissing match about my coach can beat up your coach either....

I had not heard that about warm-ups being more traditional, interesting. (how to be civil)

I think I should set the records straight here.

The file I have submitted is the complete file. I got my timing wrong as to the amount of warm-up time I would have before the event due to signing on, driving to a warm-up area, setting up etc. I would have preferred another 30 minutes, although I would not have used all this time for warming up.

For the distance, as whoawhoa is right, and even though I got to lead out, my partner was over the pace for the first 5 minutes until we settled down. I was also expecting the power required whilst drafting to be higher, and had trained using an under/over interval somewhere between LT and VO2max for 10 minute durations.

PSUcycling, I would be interested to know how you would warm-up for a 25TT? I am always open to better preparation techniques.

PSUcycling said:

hey

i just looked at your file and one thing really stood out to me.

Did you really only get a 25min warmup for a TT???

TT's require the most preperation as you go hard from the gun, and you waste more energy until you are fully warmed up.

Maybe there was another file...?

VG

I thought a lot of research had shown that it is best to go gently from the gun and build up slowly to your FT, unless it is a Kilo.

I find that RR's require the least amount, then Crits and the most TT's.

If you look at the file I submitted on the other thread "a powerfile to look at", I have the full ride for my uphill TT. Even though it was just a .5 mile uphill, it require full maximal efforts from the gun.

I would have liked more time on the bike right up to the start, but I was required to wait in line for the first TT.

I would say for any TT, I would get a minimum of an hour. I like to spin for about 15mins just easy. then I like to spin @ a wattage that will be z2/z3 for 5mins, ride easy then keep upping the wattage 20-50 watts and recovering until I'm holding 400-500 for a min or two.

You can see in my file that even though I had done almost 2hrs of riding before my TT including 2-3 runs up @ 80-90% (was supposed to be 1.5hrs, but they pushed start time back) My second run up was my best @ 2:27. I was able to get more riding time right up to the start the second time.

For Crits, I usually get around an hour and add more shorter sprint efforts towards the end, its nice to be ready if they go hard in the first lap.

RR's I tend to get 45 min warm-up and looks similar to a TT warm-up.

warm-up times can vary a bunch depending on what kind of shape you are in. The better shape you get into the longer it seems to require to get fully warmed up. You can look at it like this: at what point in an endurance training ride do you start feeling really good? When do you have to watch your HR/Power to keep in your zone? For me its 1-1.5hrs or so.

I guess I should put a disclaimer here: This is my experience/opinion and that of my coach.

PSU

bigbevans said:

I thought a lot of research had shown that it is best to go gently from the gun and build up slowly to your FT, unless it is a Kilo.

I believe it is: "start slow finish fast" is a popular saying. If you save going over your FT for the end you are less likely to crack. If you crack at the end you are going to go much much slower than if you were a little more conservative at the beginning.

For TT's I like to break it into 1/3's. Stay at or below your FT for the 1/3 then at or just above for the 2/3 and the last third push yourself all the way to the end. When I adopted this in my racing, my TT's got a lot faster. Of course all of this dependant on the length. a 10min TT you will be able to start @ FT and go above that right away.

Another benefit of having a Powermeter and CP's is that I just look at my best power for what I think the TT duration will be and I like to start @ that or just below. So far I've blown away all of last years PR's and we are only in March.

Again, my opinion.

bigbevans said:

I thought a lot of research had shown that it is best to go gently from the gun and build up slowly to your FT, unless it is a Kilo.

In a TT, there is only one definition of "best," and that is lowest elapsed time. Depending on the TT, assuming there are grade and wind changes, there's no question that lowest ET is obtained with variable power pacing. So, whether you start at FT, or well above or below FT (e.g., more than 100w) is a function of the course and the optimal pacing strategy for the course that day (considering both grade and wind). I would tailor my warmup to the demands of the first 15 minutes or so of the pacing strategy. If, for example, the course is an out/back with a downgrade on the outbound segment, I'll be starting at well below FT and don't need much warmup. Reverse the course and I'll be starting at well above FT and I would get more of a warmup. Even if I am going to be starting >FT, I don't warm up more than 20 mins because I think it just wastes energy, but some may be more comfortable riding at FT or above if they get more of a warmup. Max power is a continuously declining function of duration, so I think one sacrifices some MP by warming up longer than necessary to get the muscles warm, unless the warmup is at a very low power (e.g., 50%FT). I think this last statement is provable.

RapDaddyo said:

In a TT, there is only one definition of "best," and that is lowest elapsed time. Depending on the TT, assuming there are grade and wind changes, there's no question that lowest ET is obtained with variable power pacing. So, whether you start at FT, or well above or below FT (e.g., more than 100w) is a function of the course and the optimal pacing strategy for the course that day (considering both grade and wind). I would tailor my warmup to the demands of the first 15 minutes or so of the pacing strategy. If, for example, the course is an out/back with a downgrade on the outbound segment, I'll be starting at well below FT and don't need much warmup. Reverse the course and I'll be starting at well above FT and I would get more of a warmup. Even if I am going to be starting >FT, I don't warm up more than 20 mins because I think it just wastes energy, but some may be more comfortable riding at FT or above if they get more of a warmup. Max power is a continuously declining function of duration, so I think one sacrifices some MP by warming up longer than necessary to get the muscles warm, unless the warmup is at a very low power (e.g., 50%FT). I think this last statement is provable.

I think your post proves that everyone's "perfect" warm-up strategy is different. I know that yours wouldn't work for me, because I've tried it. And I consistently make better numbers during the second stage/ second day of racing. I don't know what it is about my body, but I always feel better and am stronger the second day.

Androob, you're going to have to do some experimenting, to find out what works for you.

I think the downhill/uphill TT analogy is interesting. Even assuming the uphill and downhill sections are identical distances, you are going to spend more time on the uphill, so it def. does pay to push a little harder there. I do think that the higher wattage you go over your "NP" for that effort, the more the drop off at the end is going to be.

PSUcycling said:

I think the downhill/uphill TT analogy is interesting. Even assuming the uphill and downhill sections are identical distances, you are going to spend more time on the uphill, so it def. does pay to push a little harder there. I do think that the higher wattage you go over your "NP" for that effort, the more the drop off at the end is going to be.

Yes, if one rides a variable power pacing strategy, the power distribution will be asymmetrical, as evident from the NP algorithm. But, it turns out that the time saved by riding at higher power on the uphill and/or upwind segments more than offsets the "cost" of having to ride for a longer duration at lower power on the downhill and/or downwind segments. Only on a totally flat course with no wind (if such a TT has ever been held outdoors) is a constant-power pacing strategy also the lowest ET strategy. But, actual execution of an optimal variable power pacing strategy is not at all simple and virtually impossible to do with today's technology (although highly experienced TTers probably do a pretty good job based on their experience and "feel"😉. So, to come full circle, most riders are probably better off riding at a constant power equal to their max power for the predicted ride duration (not necessarily FT).

The nature of the warmup is also a fuzzy area... It seems that for short efforts (again, less than 5-7 minutes or so...), some warmup is good, but what type doesn't matter so much.

That's what the 'science' says. The truth is probably that everyone is a bit different. And for a lot of people, a certain warmup may make them feel faster, even if they aren't, which is valuable in and of itself.

The only thing that is for sure about longer warmups is you need to be very carefull not to get too hot. Even relatively small amounts of heat stress can significantly effect performance. You mentioned tailoring your warmup to the first part of the TT, I would add that it is probably smart to tailor it to the environment also.

Or you can take the approach of a lot of pro's and wear an ice vest, or use a portable cold tent for your warm-up...

Scott

As far as the scientific aspect is applicable, how much does intensive warm-up work(L4-L5) start to burn away at your usable power?

For example, if within my warm-up I do 15 minutes at L4, and then ride a 25 mile TT, would I have to ride at a power that is sustainable for ~75 minutes, rather than 60 minutes?