Power meters · Public discussion

using NP to estimate FTP

Started by tk_bike · · Last activity · 8 posts · 2,787 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Power meters
Published
16 April 2007
Last activity
18 April 2007
Original author
tk_bike
Posts
8
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
2,787
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–8 of 8
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. when using NP from a ~1 hour race effort such as a crit is there a caveat of the VI of the ride to bear in mind? my peak 1 hour NP occurred during a ~3.5 hour road race 3 weeks ago.

    The NP was 292 w which seems a high estimate of ftp for me, i estimate more like 280 and at the time was using 270 as my ftp, the average for this hour was only 236 w so there was a big VI (1.24).

    Does the VI of the ride, or that hour at least, make this useless for estimating ftp or am i just being too conservative? although it occurred in a long race it was at the beginning of the race so i was still pretty fresh.

    I'm going to try some 20 min efforts at 290 to see how do-able they are, should give me an idea i guess!

  2. tk_bike said:

    when using NP from a ~1 hour race effort such as a crit is there a caveat of the VI of the ride to bear in mind? my peak 1 hour NP occurred during a ~3.5 hour road race 3 weeks ago.

    The NP was 292 w which seems a high estimate of ftp for me, i estimate more like 280 and at the time was using 270 as my ftp, the average for this hour was only 236 w so there was a big VI (1.24).

    Does the VI of the ride, or that hour at least, make this useless for estimating ftp or am i just being too conservative? although it occurred in a long race it was at the beginning of the race so i was still pretty fresh.

    I'm going to try some 20 min efforts at 290 to see how do-able they are, should give me an idea i guess!

    A high VI, per se, doesn't necessarily invalidate the use of normalized power for this purpose. However, the algorithm seems to be only +/- ~5% accurate (i.e., that's my guesstimate of the confidence limits), and (catch-22) you only need to rely on the algorithm when power is highly variable in the first place (since with non-variable data, you can just use the average power). What I therefore tell people is to use a higher-than-expected normalized power (intensity factor, actually) as an indication that they should reassess their functional threshold power using, e.g., whatever approach they used to establish it in the first place (just as your planning to do w/ the 20 min efforts).

    Specific to your data, I wouldn't necessary change anything: your normalized power of 292 W is only 4% greater than your estimated functional threshold power of 280 W, which is w/in the apparent error-of-measurement.

  3. Why dont you guys who aren't sure do a 60 min FTP test? You are racing so aren't you doing L4 anyway? Nail 3 20s or do a full 60, easy.

    Sounds like you are close enough though.

  4. tk_bike said:

    The NP was 292 w which seems a high estimate of ftp for me, i estimate more like 280 and at the time was using 270 as my ftp, the average for this hour was only 236 w so there was a big VI (1.24).

    The general feeling is that 1hr NP can sometimes overstate one's FTP, but that it's still within ~5%. Seeing a 1hr NP >5% above your estimated FTP should be an indication that a new test is in order, however many people seem to want to take the shortcut and just use the NP to guess the new FTP value instead. Your 1hr NP of 292w is right on the edge of being 5% over your 280w estimate. A 1.24 VI is large, but not huge, and I expect 280-290w isn't a bad ballpark to play around in.

    tk_bike said:

    I'm going to try some 20 min efforts at 290 to see how do-able they are, should give me an idea i guess!

    Excellent idea. Enjoy the testing/training. 🙂

    Edit: .... or what Andy said.

  5. As others have said, I would use it in conjunction with whatever method you normally use to find your FTP. In and of itself, NP shouldn't dictate a new FTP. But it might tell you that you need to re-evaluate your current FTP.

    On another note, the NP algorithm is impressive. From a race yesterday that lasted an hour extactly, my NP came out to 273. It was highly variable (AP was 230), but nevertheless probably almost as hard as I could have gone for the entire hour. My current FTP is set at 270. Creepy.

  6. I'm not a fan of TT efforts, especially on the trainer so desperately trying to avoid a full 1 hour test!!

    I've got a 12 mile TT tonight so that might help, if i can i'll try some extra at 290ish and see how doable it is. if not thats at least 1 max effort for the cp spreadsheet.

  7. dumb question, but what constitutes "high variability" in regards to VI. I had a 45 minute crit with a VI of 1.05. ave power was 260 and NP was 275. I currently have my FTP as 255; should I re-think it? I did recently manage 2x20 at 264 so I was already thinking of re-testing.

    sorry, I guess that was actually a couplr of dumb questions

  8. marmatt said:

    dumb question, but what constitutes "high variability" in regards to VI.

    Anything over ~1.3 is pretty high. However, values >2 aren't uncommon when doing very high intensity intervals.

    marmatt said:

    I had a 45 minute crit with a VI of 1.05. ave power was 260 and NP was 275. I currently have my FTP as 255; should I re-think it?

    The accuracy of the normalized power algorithm isn't dependent on the VI per se.

    marmatt said:

    I did recently manage 2x20 at 264 so I was already thinking of re-testing.

    This is a perfect example of why I've always said that you can't rely on the existence of NP 'busters' as proof that the algorithm is biased...

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.