Use of running jackets?

Charles Coffin said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings while

still

Quoted message said:

dark), but find myself mystified about when to use running jackets. I
really only use jackets on my runs when it rains, and even then I

find

Quoted message said:

that the water resistant running jackets lack a hood, so I take a

more

Quoted message said:

general rain jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods?

Good question, one that has bothered me for years.

Quoted message said:

I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

Oh really? Ever run with your "you-know-whats" hanging out? Try it, the
heat loss from your head is nothing in comparison.

Quoted message said:

Do jackets also help that much in the wind?

Absolutely.

Quoted message said:

I have jogged this last
winter in temperatures as cold as almost -20 C (single negative

digits

Quoted message said:

Farenheit). I usually wear ASICS cold days top and pants and vest

with

Quoted message said:

thermal underwear underneath, but no running jacket.

I am curious how others use jackets. Are they a must, or is my

method

Quoted message said:

(insulated clothing with thermal underwear) just as good?

Are you having problems? It seems you've been doing this for years, so
if it's working, why break it?

Charles Coffin said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings while still
dark), but find myself mystified about when to use running jackets. I
really only use jackets on my runs when it rains, and even then I find
that the water resistant running jackets lack a hood, so I take a more
general rain jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods? I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

I use Marmot Precip (excellent hood) in rain (not breathable but does
have pit zips), but just a water resistant jacket if just misting or
light rain and short run. It's a fairly popular rain jacket among trail
runners. It's noisy for general running but in wind with driving rain, I
can't hear it over the other racket. I've heard newer versions are
quieter and more breathable.

Jackets without hoods are a pet peeve of mine also. I find more
functional gear for trail running in the outdoor stores (REI, Sierra
Trading Post, etc) than in running stores. Much of the gear I have is
advertised for use in trail running where people are likely to be out
longer and not near facilities. I've found hoods alone or over watch cap
or balaclava add needed warmth or wind protection in cold weather. I
rarely use them for long, but they're worth their weight in gold to me
when I use them.

Quoted message said:

Do jackets also help that much in the wind?

Yes. I have a Marmot Chinook that's windproof (water resistant at best)
- about 3.5 oz so it's great to pack along in summer for the changes in
weather. It has a minimalist hood - it covers head, but I can't seal
myself in (hood only comes a little over chin) as well with it as with a
heavier shell. It has a minimal chest pocket but no hand pockets -
penalty for being so light. Lightweight shells obviously provide no
warmth themselves but work with insulation. Heavier shells may provide
some insulation also. We may get 50 mph winds here and sometimes have
storms up to 70-100 mph, although I avoid the latter now (too spooky
with the way the trees are bending and snapping and assorted debris
flying through the air). Runs are more likely anywhere from calm to
about 20-30 mph winds. I also have a Patagonia Krushell with fuller hood
and larger chest pocket as well as hand pockets that works well, but
it's a little heavier (10oz, iirc) and bulkier.

But I'm still looking for the Holy Grail of running jackets -
waterproof, windproof, 100% breathable, good hood and pockets 😉

I have jogged this last

Quoted message said:

winter in temperatures as cold as almost -20 C (single negative digits
Farenheit). I usually wear ASICS cold days top and pants and vest with
thermal underwear underneath, but no running jacket.

I am curious how others use jackets. Are they a must, or is my method
(insulated clothing with thermal underwear) just as good?

Depends on the weather. Where I am (Alaska), some sort of shell is
almost essential on many winter days because of wind or wanting some
snow protection.

I don't think we got below 0F this year, but I've found a synthetic
t-shirt, powerdry top and/or stretch fleece was usually enough down to
0F if it was sunny and not windy. If windy, damp, or dark, adding a
shell helps immensely - esp. one with a good hood. I'll frequently start
with a shell until warmed up, then peel it so I can ventilate more, if
needed. I have another breathable layer (Sporthill Catalyst) that was
never cold enough for me to use, but suspect that would take me down to
-20F/-30C, maybe colder. I've found the wind resistance in these layers
is ok when the only wind is me running (I'm slow) or a gentle breeze,
but in 20 mph winds or more for any period of time, I need a shell over
them - they're just too breezy. If they're very wind resistant, they
tend not to breathe well.

I rarely leave home without a shell in winter - either wearing it or
have it with me. That's pretty typical around here. The wind can pick up
too quickly.

For pants, I use Sporthill XC with varying thicknesses of tights under
them. I may also use wind pants over them if really cold (subzero F) or
if snowing or snowshoe running.

Finding the right combination of weather protection and breathability is
always a challenge, esp. on long runs.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

No hoods 4 running.
1.because in old time hoods and long coats wee used to hide face and
swords.
sept scots and brits wore dress. and still do. wee the rich leaders do.
2.wind gets caught in them and puts 180° anger into an all ready bad
hair day.
3.In todays society of communication and motor transports put a runner
in there bad hairdos place.
4. Don't need the cops running you down..
5.on rain days we all no the cops and A $10.00 if one of the board
leaders caught it up. (this is ninja vanish time) why there so many
exits.......sometime it can get so trying. and some and most time the
$10.00 is not evan there at end of shift. Oh boy a meal at a sari
place.......butt again no money.
Hay the board/police chiefest haft to account for there $100,000.00 a
year cut backs.......employers you know who hire none get paid road
trash peopled.
wait a tick......rain today.I am free. Chardonnay........dancing.

time to get the 10¢ cans so the chieftens can't pay there workers
too.......
besides they can write the meal off on there taxs.......on the taxs
money.....Baffel I think I just went cross eyes again.
I am free.........

"Charles Coffin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings while still
dark), but find myself mystified about when to use running jackets. I
really only use jackets on my runs when it rains, and even then I find
that the water resistant running jackets lack a hood, so I take a more
general rain jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods?

I can't speak for others but I would rather wear a hat that a hood.
Invariably the hood is some material that swooshes and almost too
restrictive. Both my Gortex winter jackets have hoods and have used then
maybe twice and never again.

Quoted message said:

I always read that most of a body's heat is lost through the head.

A hat will do the job nicely and if you running with someone you can
hear them. 😉

Quoted message said:

Do jackets also help that much in the wind?

Good ones do!

Quoted message said:

I have jogged this last
winter in temperatures as cold as almost -20 C (single negative digits
Farenheit). I usually wear ASICS cold days top and pants and vest with
thermal underwear underneath, but no running jacket.

For the same temps my Gortex seems to do the trick with a warm hat and
one or more poly yada shirts. I have heavy and light tights and seldom
ever use the Gortex pants. Winter jackets come in a wide variety of
flavors, each have some bias such as wind, or rain. i.e. breathability
in general. I think Donovan has a web page with some details on this.

Quoted message said:

I am curious how others use jackets. Are they a must, or is my method
(insulated clothing with thermal underwear) just as good?

As long as you're warm and your sweat is wicking away from your body
you are fine.

-DougF

"Charles Coffin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings while still
dark), but find myself mystified about when to use running jackets. I
really only use jackets on my runs when it rains, and even then I find
that the water resistant running jackets lack a hood, so I take a more
general rain jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods? I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

wear a hat. a hood, to me, is annoying.

Quoted message said:

Do jackets also help that much in the wind? I have jogged this last
winter in temperatures as cold as almost -20 C (single negative digits
Farenheit). I usually wear ASICS cold days top and pants and vest with
thermal underwear underneath, but no running jacket.

i wear a running jacket every morning until it gets too warm.

Quoted message said:

I am curious how others use jackets. Are they a must, or is my method
(insulated clothing with thermal underwear) just as good?

Charles Coffin said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings
while still dark), but find myself mystified about when to
use running jackets. I really only use jackets on my runs
when it rains, and even then I find that the water resistant
running jackets lack a hood, so I take a more general rain
jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain jackets
have hoods? I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

I think the key is modularity. If you have a hood, then you're stuck
with it whether you need it or not. A warmish rain, say 50 F or above,
is usually not a problem. If it's a moderate rain, then a water
resistant running jacket with a running cap (not mesh) works for me. If
it's warmer than 65, then I go without the jacket and just get wet. If
it's a cold rain (30s), then things start to get a little tricky.
Everybody is different on how they handle cold/rain/wind.

--
Phil M.

You're getting me hott baby...

Charles Coffin said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings while still
dark), but find myself mystified about when to use running jackets. I
really only use jackets on my runs when it rains, and even then I find
that the water resistant running jackets lack a hood, so I take a more
general rain jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods? I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

(1) runners usually wear hats. You can wear a different sort of hat depending
on the type of rain. If it's light rain, in warm conditions, maybe just
something to keep the water out of your eyes. If it's heavier, a wicking hat.

(2) if your entire body is covered in wet cotton, you will probably lose more
body heat through your body ! For the most part, wet weather is also reasonably
warm (>40 degrees) so as long as you're not wrapped in very wet fabric, overall
heat loss is not a problem. But whatever clothes you put on, they'd better
not get too waterlogged. If it does get very cold, you will want a hat.

FWIW, if it's raining but not too cold, I usually go with running tights, and
a light running top -- something that's not going to soak up too much water.

Quoted message said:

Do jackets also help that much in the wind? I have jogged this last

Yes, but there are lots of alternatives. I usually go with wind mitts,
windproof running top, running tights and wind briefs. This is a more
breathable option than a rain jacket. Wearing a vest as you do is also
a good option -- you block the wind from the front, but get better
breathability.

Quoted message said:

I am curious how others use jackets. Are they a must, or is my method
(insulated clothing with thermal underwear) just as good?

There are many roads to Rome.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Charles Coffin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods?

I have at least 2 running jackets w/ hoods, as well as a couple of vests.
They weren't that hard to find & are "name brand", you just must need to
look around more.
bj

Quoted message said:

I am curious how others use jackets.

__

fashion & status. so when i wear my adidas adistar climaproof
reflective running jacket....well it's a like a ferrari. now whether i
can perform like that is another story....hahaha...but i can carry the
look. in central park i'll see donnie's clan....in their flouresent
green jackets. the jacket's so bright helen keller could see it from
250' away. but it's 'status' as 'that person's" trained by & in the
tribe of bob glover himself. people come to races in their boston '04
jacket (the hot one). just go to the expo of a big city marathon.
everybody is in their london or berlin or rome or new york jacket, etc.

so people "use" their jackets to "identify, communicate, and say
something about themself". no one knows i bought my $140 adistar for
$30 on closeout. no one wants a jacket everyone has....for example you
would never catch me in a nyc marathon jacket...oh hell no. but i
would wear some sub 4, sugio, or tokyo marathon jacket.

Phil M. said:

Charles Coffin said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings
while still dark), but find myself mystified about when to
use running jackets. I really only use jackets on my runs
when it rains, and even then I find that the water resistant
running jackets lack a hood, so I take a more general rain
jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain jackets
have hoods? I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

I think the key is modularity. If you have a hood, then you're stuck
with it whether you need it or not.

Yep, I've got it in an emergency, whether I thought to bring a hat or
balaclava or not (or even have some place to put a hat) 🙂 A fraction
of an ounce tucked down my back is really cheap, lightweight, convenient
insurance for changing weather or other emergencies. It usually gets
used *over* hats that aren't providing enough protection.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am curious how others use jackets.

__

fashion & status. so when i wear my adidas adistar climaproof
reflective running jacket....well it's a like a ferrari. now whether i
can perform like that is another story....hahaha...but i can carry the
look. in central park i'll see donnie's clan....in their flouresent
green jackets. the jacket's so bright helen keller could see it from
250' away. but it's 'status' as 'that person's" trained by & in the
tribe of bob glover himself.

That's partly true -- if I'm out on the course cheering on my teammates, you
bet I'll be wearing bright yellow. Great visibility and it's a great morale
boost when you can see a big pack of people all cheering for you. In fact I
probably wear the jacket more before/after races than I do for actual running.

Though it's true that I also use it for night time visibility sometimes.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Charles Coffin said:

I run on almost a daily basis (usually very early mornings while

still

Quoted message said:

dark), but find myself mystified about when to use running jackets. I
really only use jackets on my runs when it rains, and even then I

find

Quoted message said:

that the water resistant running jackets lack a hood, so I take a

more

Quoted message said:

general rain jacket with hood for the jog. Why don't running rain
jackets have hoods? I always read that most of a body's heat is lost
through the head.

Do jackets also help that much in the wind? I have jogged this last
winter in temperatures as cold as almost -20 C (single negative

digits

Quoted message said:

Farenheit). I usually wear ASICS cold days top and pants and vest

with

Quoted message said:

thermal underwear underneath, but no running jacket.

I am curious how others use jackets. Are they a must, or is my

method

Quoted message said:

(insulated clothing with thermal underwear) just as good?

I wear running a Mountain Athletics jacket when it's cold, particularly
when it's windy. Don't care about the lack of hood, and never wear a
hat. Skin's waterproof - didn't you know?

Edward

"Scorn B Woe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You're getting me hott baby...

i have to wear the coat so that my big, bouncy bosom doesnt distract the
paperboy.

Quoted message said:

You end up soaking wet anyway...........is there a point here?

Dot said:

But I'm still looking for the Holy Grail of running jackets -
waterproof, windproof, 100% breathable, good hood and pockets 😉

Just curious - any of those jackets you've tried Gore-Tex XCR? I have a
regular GoreTex jacket but I don't find it breathable enough for running
in the rain and was curious about XCR which according to marketing flaks
is 60% more breathable under heavy activity. It is apparently far and
away the most breathable of the waterproof/breathable materials. MEC
makes a cycling jacket called the Zik which is XCR with a removable
hood, pit zips, a chest and back pocket (but no side pockets). The url
is hideously long but if you go to www.mec.ca and search for "zik" it
comes up right away.

Neil

"Neil Gendzwill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

But I'm still looking for the Holy Grail of running jackets - waterproof,
windproof, 100% breathable, good hood and pockets 😉

Just curious - any of those jackets you've tried Gore-Tex XCR? I have a
regular GoreTex jacket but I don't find it breathable enough for running
in the rain and was curious about XCR which according to marketing flaks
is 60% more breathable under heavy activity. It is apparently far and away
the most breathable of the waterproof/breathable materials.

I have an XCR hiking jacket, and let me say it doesn't seem to breathe
enough, or more than the regular Gore-Tex. I recall hearing a number like
10% more breathable. In the case of running in high humidity conditions,
the moisture generated is so massive that any shell will keep in the
majority of the vapor.

Dave

Neil Gendzwill said:

Dot said:

But I'm still looking for the Holy Grail of running jackets -
waterproof, windproof, 100% breathable, good hood and pockets 😉

Just curious - any of those jackets you've tried Gore-Tex XCR? I have a
regular GoreTex jacket but I don't find it breathable enough for running
in the rain and was curious about XCR which according to marketing flaks
is 60% more breathable under heavy activity. It is apparently far and
away the most breathable of the waterproof/breathable materials. MEC
makes a cycling jacket called the Zik which is XCR with a removable
hood, pit zips, a chest and back pocket (but no side pockets). The url

If you're that concerned about breathability in running clothes, I'd recommend
steering clear of raincoats of any kind. Any running top that doesn't get
too waterlogged will do fine -- sporthill 3sp is quite good, a fitted long
sleeve top also works (for example, HIND make some nice tops along these
lines). A vest with a mesh back will help block wind and rain from the front
providing protection where you need it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Neil Gendzwill said:

Dot said:

But I'm still looking for the Holy Grail of running jackets -
waterproof, windproof, 100% breathable, good hood and pockets 😉

Just curious - any of those jackets you've tried Gore-Tex XCR? I have a
regular GoreTex jacket but I don't find it breathable enough for running
in the rain and was curious about XCR which according to marketing flaks
is 60% more breathable under heavy activity. It is apparently far and
away the most breathable of the waterproof/breathable materials. MEC
makes a cycling jacket called the Zik which is XCR with a removable
hood, pit zips, a chest and back pocket (but no side pockets). The url
is hideously long but if you go to www.mec.ca and search for "zik" it
comes up right away.

Thanks. That's a nice weight and seems to be much lighter than the xcr
or paclite shells that I've seen in stores locally - and at least as
pricey 🙁 (even considering exchange rate)

I thought my first jacket was XCR but the label just says for "Extreme
Wet Weather". It was only wearable in winter - 20F and below - and even
then was too warm / poor breathability. And, worst of all, it weighs
nearly 2 lb and was bulky to fit in camelbak, if needed, but had lots of
good-size pockets. Paclite is much lighter but the stuff I've seen in
stores didn't look particularly breathable.

This thread has some rankings of materials from breathable to
nonbreathable (thre's a 2nd list on there also, but didn't want to take
up bandwidth here, but goretex xcr is way down the list on it also):
http://tinyurl.com/8wazc

- mosquito netting (!)
- 2 layer supplex nylon (eg the lightweight railriders stuff)
- pertex quantum/microlight
- epic malibu/alpine
- 0.85 oz nylon
- event
- goretex xcr/paclite
- 2L PU (eg, precip (marmot))
- silnylon (nonbreathable)

This is consistent with other comments I've heard.

I had a supplex shell that the airlines lost about 4 yr ago, and I've
never found anything else to breathe like it since - but am still
looking. The shell I'm using most right now is Marmot Chinook made from
pertex, and I usually drip sweat in it - unless I have too little under
it to conserve heat and calories (cold skin, sweating).

Others that I have are a Go-Lite anorak from the pertex family also, but
not as minimalist as the chinook and doesn't have a hood. These are both
windproof (hold up to mouth and try to blow through the material - no
perceptible air passes through). Patagonia Krushell is nice with good
hood and large pockets.

I just got an REI Momentum (no hood) on 1/2 price sale, but it's been
too warm to wear it since I bought it a month ago. It *seems* like it
will be more breathable. I've also tried some N2S layer (Marmot
Evolution), but unless you can get those with a snug fit, which I
haven't found for me, the material isn't close enough to body for it to
work - and it has neither hood nor pockets. I have heard one guy in BC
say the featherlight version works (Transition featherlight, I forget
the manufacturer). There's a newer version out that's supposed to be
more breathable.

Most of these non-minimalists are running about 9-10 oz, while the
lightweight ones are about 3 oz. My stretch fleece is about 8-9 oz,
iirc. I find that plus a 3-oz shell gives me more flexibility regarding
temperature range than a 9-10 oz shell in winter. Summer I'll need
something waterproof for long runs, but will probably use a 3oz shell
for when it's not raining.

I'm finding I like the minimalist designs (except for lack of pockets)
since they're easy to peel off or put back on as weather or effort
changes. The only one I consider useful as a rainshell (heavy rain for
multiple hours, although I've not tested it that long) is the Marmot
Precip (about 10oz).

At least in my experience, the shells that seem to appear more
"breathable" have a liner to soak up the sweat until it can pass through
the outer membrane - which puts them in the 9 oz range for weight. But
they don't drip sweat in the short term - just soak it up, so you're
still wet.

I mostly wait until I see closeout sales before I try a model I've been
looking for so I don't think I've spent over $50 for any of these,
couple around $27. And they all get used somewhat until I find the
perfect shell 😉

But that's just been my experience.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004