USAT rules quesion

In article <2005070918201516807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom>,

Roger Cortesi said:

Ok rule 3.4.d is pretty clear
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.4

Quoted message said:

Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person
(other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including
food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or
bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and
approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information
regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors
on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of
unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in
a variable time penalty.

So if I'm cycling away in the middle of the pack and I see some poor
guy who has gotten 1 (or even 2 flats), and only he only has 0 or 1
spare tubes. The neighborly thing is to slow down enough to wing one
of my spare tubes at him. But am I to understand that in addition to
all the time he is going to loose changing the tire, he will also be
given a 2 to 6 minute penalty.

Or more; you could get 8 minutes, I think, if it's your second foul in
an Ironman race. Yes, that's my understanding: if you receive help from
anyone other than the race personnel, it's a penalty. Of course, it
might be worth the penalty rather than having to walk the rest of the
way.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck said:

In article <2005070918201516807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom>,

Roger Cortesi said:

Ok rule 3.4.d is pretty clear
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.4

So if I'm cycling away in the middle of the pack and I see some poor
guy who has gotten 1 (or even 2 flats), and only he only has 0 or 1
spare tubes. The neighborly thing is to slow down enough to wing one
of my spare tubes at him. But am I to understand that in addition to
all the time he is going to loose changing the tire, he will also be
given a 2 to 6 minute penalty.

Or more; you could get 8 minutes, I think, if it's your second foul in
an Ironman race. Yes, that's my understanding: if you receive help from
anyone other than the race personnel, it's a penalty. Of course, it
might be worth the penalty rather than having to walk the rest of the
way.

Right but what about the rider giving the help? The rules don't mention
him/her. Or is that covered somewhere else?

I agree on the taking the penalty instead of walking. But I guess it
depends on how close to the line you are ;-).

Speaking of time penalties...
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.7
So on the long course if your first offense is 4 min and your 2nd 8 min
on the long course...

Is the second offense a total of 8 minutes, or an additional 8 minutes
(for a total of 12 minutes)?

In the rules is a 'long' course the same as an ironman distance event?
But it says 'cycle course 50-100k' has the same penalties as 'long'? Is
that km or miles? Either way it is shorter than an iron distance.

I figure it is better to know ahead of time how much that extra tube is
going to cost me... he he...

Which reminds me... How often do people replace there tires? I have got
almost 1000 miles on the stock tires that came with my trek 2200. And
I'm wondering if I should change them before the Timberman at the end
of August? (My instinct says no... the less screwing with the bike the
less likely it will get dorked up).

Roger "15,000 questions" Cortesi

--
To email me, remove the greeting from my email address.

(for athletes) The Digital Athletic Log http://rogercortesi.com/athleticlog/

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Change the tires. Why risk months of training for a few bucks and 20
minutes work.

Ken

"Roger Cortesi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2005071022084416807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom...

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck said:

In article <2005070918201516807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom>,

Roger Cortesi said:

Ok rule 3.4.d is pretty clear
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.4

So if I'm cycling away in the middle of the pack and I see some poor guy
who has gotten 1 (or even 2 flats), and only he only has 0 or 1 spare
tubes. The neighborly thing is to slow down enough to wing one of my
spare tubes at him. But am I to understand that in addition to all the
time he is going to loose changing the tire, he will also be given a 2
to 6 minute penalty.

Or more; you could get 8 minutes, I think, if it's your second foul in an
Ironman race. Yes, that's my understanding: if you receive help from
anyone other than the race personnel, it's a penalty. Of course, it might
be worth the penalty rather than having to walk the rest of the way.

Right but what about the rider giving the help? The rules don't mention
him/her. Or is that covered somewhere else?

I agree on the taking the penalty instead of walking. But I guess it
depends on how close to the line you are ;-).

Speaking of time penalties...
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.7
So on the long course if your first offense is 4 min and your 2nd 8 min on
the long course...

Is the second offense a total of 8 minutes, or an additional 8 minutes
(for a total of 12 minutes)?

In the rules is a 'long' course the same as an ironman distance event? But
it says 'cycle course 50-100k' has the same penalties as 'long'? Is that
km or miles? Either way it is shorter than an iron distance.

I figure it is better to know ahead of time how much that extra tube is
going to cost me... he he...

Which reminds me... How often do people replace there tires? I have got
almost 1000 miles on the stock tires that came with my trek 2200. And I'm
wondering if I should change them before the Timberman at the end of
August? (My instinct says no... the less screwing with the bike the less
likely it will get dorked up).

Roger "15,000 questions" Cortesi

--
To email me, remove the greeting from my email address.

(for athletes) The Digital Athletic Log
http://rogercortesi.com/athleticlog/

(for nerds) The Online Equation Editor http://rogercortesi.com/eqn/

In article <2005071022084416807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom>,

Roger Cortesi said:

Is the second offense a total of 8 minutes, or an additional 8 minutes
(for a total of 12 minutes)?

12 minutes total. And one more foul is a DQ.

Quoted message said:

Which reminds me... How often do people replace there tires? I have got
almost 1000 miles on the stock tires that came with my trek 2200. And
I'm wondering if I should change them before the Timberman at the end
of August? (My instinct says no... the less screwing with the bike the
less likely it will get dorked up).

After a 1000 miles, you should probably get a tune-up anyway. When you
get the tuneup, ask how the tires look. My thought would be that they're
probably okay, but letting an experienced bike professional look at them
makes sense.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

I agree with Ken, put on new tires.

I get over 3000 miles on Conti Gatorskins. I have a set of Gatorskins
for races only.

Humm, how did I post this here? sorry.

"IMKen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Change the tires. Why risk months of training for a few bucks and 20
minutes work.

Ken

"Roger Cortesi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2005071022084416807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom...

Quoted message said:

On 2005-07-10 21:18:41 -0400, Harold Buck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <2005070918201516807%roger2@rogerHELLOcortesicom>,
Roger Cortesi <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Ok rule 3.4.d is pretty clear
> http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.4
>
> So if I'm cycling away in the middle of the pack and I see some poor
> guy who has gotten 1 (or even 2 flats), and only he only has 0 or 1
> spare tubes. The neighborly thing is to slow down enough to wing one
> of my spare tubes at him. But am I to understand that in addition to
> all the time he is going to loose changing the tire, he will also be
> given a 2 to 6 minute penalty.

Or more; you could get 8 minutes, I think, if it's your second foul in
an Ironman race. Yes, that's my understanding: if you receive help from
anyone other than the race personnel, it's a penalty. Of course, it
might be worth the penalty rather than having to walk the rest of the
way.

Right but what about the rider giving the help? The rules don't mention
him/her. Or is that covered somewhere else?

I agree on the taking the penalty instead of walking. But I guess it
depends on how close to the line you are ;-).

Speaking of time penalties...
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.7
So on the long course if your first offense is 4 min and your 2nd 8 min
on the long course...

Is the second offense a total of 8 minutes, or an additional 8 minutes
(for a total of 12 minutes)?

In the rules is a 'long' course the same as an ironman distance event?
But it says 'cycle course 50-100k' has the same penalties as 'long'? Is
that km or miles? Either way it is shorter than an iron distance.

I figure it is better to know ahead of time how much that extra tube is
going to cost me... he he...

Which reminds me... How often do people replace there tires? I have got
almost 1000 miles on the stock tires that came with my trek 2200. And I'm
wondering if I should change them before the Timberman at the end of
August? (My instinct says no... the less screwing with the bike the less
likely it will get dorked up).

Roger "15,000 questions" Cortesi

--
To email me, remove the greeting from my email address.

(for athletes) The Digital Athletic Log
http://rogercortesi.com/athleticlog/

(for nerds) The Online Equation Editor http://rogercortesi.com/eqn/

I'd put on new tubes at least, if not new tires... BUT I'd give them
several training rides to make sure I'd not screwed something up or
pinched the tube.
If Eric works on it, Eric is likely to make an error. If the mechanic
does it, I'll give it a bit more faith but still test it out before race
time.

If I took up skydiving do I trust me (an airhead) or someone else to
pack my chute? Hell with it I'm staying on the ground
Eric

MK said:

I agree with Ken, put on new tires.

I get over 3000 miles on Conti Gatorskins. I have a set of Gatorskins
for races only.

As long as this is deemed a "random act" and you are not on the course
pacing another individual you will NEVER get a penalty for this. If you
do, escalate it to the head ref for USAT.

This penalty is intended to prevent folks from having someone out on the
course (in the race or not) specifically for the purpose of helping them
when they have a mechanical.

-Andrew
Boulder, CO

Roger Cortesi said:

Ok rule 3.4.d is pretty clear
http://www.usatriathlon.org/Rules_Officials/rules.htm#3.4

Quoted message said:

Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person
(other than a race official) physical assistance in any form,
including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement
bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted
and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information
regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors
on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of
unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in
a variable time penalty.

So if I'm cycling away in the middle of the pack and I see some poor guy
who has gotten 1 (or even 2 flats), and only he only has 0 or 1 spare
tubes. The neighborly thing is to slow down enough to wing one of my
spare tubes at him. But am I to understand that in addition to all the
time he is going to loose changing the tire, he will also be given a 2
to 6 minute penalty. And what about me... Is this how it plays out in
practice? Or are we training to crushed the weak, broken, and
ill-prepared behind in our dust?

Just a thought that occurred to me today during the ride.

Roger

I had an official tell me that I could receive a penalty for giving
another racer, who was completely unknown to me, a bar end plug while
in transition and before the race began, so "never" is probably too
strong.

I later corresponded with Charlie Crawford, who coincidentally had been
the head ref for that race, and he said that the ref was incorrect, so
your are correct about escalating.

Do you have any evidence to support the idea that there is an exception
for random acts? I certainly have always interpreted the rules the way
that Roger is suggesting and I would never give parts or tools to, nor
receive them from, another racer during a race.

The Xterra folks have made some noise about the fact that this is
allowed in their races and that this is a difference from USAT racing.

Kernal Mustard said:

I had an official tell me that I could receive a penalty for giving
another racer, who was completely unknown to me, a bar end plug while
in transition and before the race began, so "never" is probably too
strong.

I later corresponded with Charlie Crawford, who coincidentally had been
the head ref for that race, and he said that the ref was incorrect, so
your are correct about escalating.

Do you have any evidence to support the idea that there is an exception
for random acts? I certainly have always interpreted the rules the way
that Roger is suggesting and I would never give parts or tools to, nor
receive them from, another racer during a race.

The Xterra folks have made some noise about the fact that this is
allowed in their races and that this is a difference from USAT racing.

Evidence. Just empirical. Find me a case where someone was actually
penalized for outside assistance that was deemed random. There are
specific cases where husband and wife teams do this (one of which is pro
or top age grouper) and in this case a penalty will be called.

The details of the penalty must be reviewed prior to being applied and I
would really like to hear if someone knows, first hand, of an instance
where this rule was applied in the spirit in which it was written.

If I can assist another individual I will. My position in the race
rarely affords me the opportunity and in most cases the need for
assistance is due to lack of preparation. Mind you, I say "most cases".
Double, triple flats, out of air etc are not in this category.

-Andrew
Boulder, CO

Quoted message said:

Do you have any evidence to support the idea that there is an exception
for random acts? I certainly have always interpreted the rules the way
that Roger is suggesting and I would never give parts or tools to, nor
receive them from, another racer during a race.

Well that is not exactly my interpretation.... ;-)

My current interpretation is that there is a distiction between the
giver and the recipient of aid (via the random good neighbore ideal).
But I'm certianly looking for counter examples.

Thanks for picking the thread up again!!!

roger

You are arguing that the receiving of outside assistance is acceptable
if it is random?

The randomness of the act is irrelevant. If you receive outside
assistance and it is not observed by an official, rule 3.3.e obligates
you to report it yourself so that you may receive a penalty. "After
violating any of the Competitive Rules, report such violation to the
Head Referee or retire from the event."

How is the referee going to know that the racer who threw you his tube
was a random stanger, and not your training partner or a member of your
club?

Reading over the rules, I think that 3.3.a "All participants must act
in compliance with these Competitive Rules" would prohibit the giving
of assistance to other racers.

Alternately, this could be construed as a violation of 3.4.h Abandoned
Equiptment.

I have a letter in to Charlie Crawford about this discussion. Maybe
he'll weigh in here with his response.

--
Ray

Reading over the rules, I think that 3.3.a "All participants must act
in compliance with these Competitive Rules" would prohibit the giving
of assistance to other racers.

Alternately, this could be construed as a violation of 3.4.h Abandoned
Equiptment.

I have a letter in to Charlie Crawford about this discussion. Maybe
he'll weigh in here with his response.

--
Ray

Well its pretty simple really and I don't think random enters into it.
Triathlon is a difficult sport, its as much about preperation as it is
about the race. If you don't do the write prep, bring the right number
of spares etc. then anything you get out on the course is outside
assistance. Anything that weakens this rule by allowing some for of
outside assistance makes it easier for those desperate to win to cheat.

Imagine a club with a few good riders and a bunch of othe members
particpating. The rest of the club are all briefed that they should
give up spares, or even swap bikes if anything happended to the fast
guys, effectively they are domestiques for the fast few. In many
triathlons with age group waves this would be perfectly possible... the
fast few don't have to carry any spares, no water bottles etc. etc.
they just collect what they need from team mates around the course...
meanwhile the rest of the competitors are cycling around with a small
toolbag, two tubes, tyre levers, gas pump... an extreme example to make
the point.

So, if you receive or give outside assitance during a race its a
penalty. Period. Remeber Spencer Smith got DQ's from IMH last year
becuase his wife ran alongside him for 200m and he discarded his hat...

Now, for 90% of us the above is neither the letter nor the intent of
triathlon. Its not what I signed up for, its not the lifestyle. When I
stopped around mile 32 at Wildflower becuase one of the guys I came
with had his 2nd flat with tubs, when I gave him a spare did he or I
care if we got penalised? Absolutely not. Thats what triathlon is
really about... you do your best, you bring what you can to the sport
to make things better for others and to have a great time doing
something you enjoy.

Charlie Crawford responded to my letter with the following:

"We have the rule and we have procedures to enforce the rule. The rule
is rather clear - no assistance from anyone outside of race management
at any time. The procedures I have implemented include what I call the
'good Samaritan' rule - that someone who has flatted may receive a
pump/tire/tube/help from a passeing-by athlete. No penalty. I call
that good sportsmanship. One may also receive help with equipment from
a stranger. However, no support from someone who is known and
following them out on the course for that purpose. Often there are
husband-wife teams for that very reason.

"As far as 'pacing' goes, no person who is not a participant may make
forward progress with the athlete. Pacing is about 95% of all our 3.4d
penalties. The other 5% is receiving food or supplies from a family
member stationed on course. Almost no one ever receives the penalty
for getting help with a flat. That one is pretty much reserved for the
husband-wife racing together."

If it's not a penalty to receive a tube, it's not a penalty to provide
one. Andrew is 100% right.

--
Ray

I think you'll find the application of these rules different from your
interpretation. Oh, and Spence's example is exactly what I was talking
about. Far, far, from random.

-Andrew

trimark said:

Well its pretty simple really and I don't think random enters into it.
Triathlon is a difficult sport, its as much about preperation as it is
about the race. If you don't do the write prep, bring the right number
of spares etc. then anything you get out on the course is outside
assistance. Anything that weakens this rule by allowing some for of
outside assistance makes it easier for those desperate to win to cheat.

Imagine a club with a few good riders and a bunch of othe members
particpating. The rest of the club are all briefed that they should
give up spares, or even swap bikes if anything happended to the fast
guys, effectively they are domestiques for the fast few. In many
triathlons with age group waves this would be perfectly possible... the
fast few don't have to carry any spares, no water bottles etc. etc.
they just collect what they need from team mates around the course...
meanwhile the rest of the competitors are cycling around with a small
toolbag, two tubes, tyre levers, gas pump... an extreme example to make
the point.

So, if you receive or give outside assitance during a race its a
penalty. Period. Remeber Spencer Smith got DQ's from IMH last year
becuase his wife ran alongside him for 200m and he discarded his hat...

Now, for 90% of us the above is neither the letter nor the intent of
triathlon. Its not what I signed up for, its not the lifestyle. When I
stopped around mile 32 at Wildflower becuase one of the guys I came
with had his 2nd flat with tubs, when I gave him a spare did he or I
care if we got penalised? Absolutely not. Thats what triathlon is
really about... you do your best, you bring what you can to the sport
to make things better for others and to have a great time doing
something you enjoy.

Kernal Mustard said:

Charlie Crawford responded to my letter with the following:

Hey thanks for writing a letter to the source and posting the reply!
That was really helpful!!!!

And I completely agree with trimark that if you take help you should
report yourself and let the judges deside on your "lack of
preparedness"pentaly or "good samaritan" break as case may be.

--
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