upgrading suntour 7-speed drivetrain to brifters

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jbafromny
I have an early 90's Specialized Sirrus Triple road bike
with a Suntour drivetrain and downtube shifters. The
combined brake/shift levers found on current roadbikes seem
like a very good idea, and I'd love to have them, but am
somewhat confused about what it would take to put them on my
bike. Here are the specifics of what I have now. How much of
this can be kept? What will have to go? What are some
reasonable options for new components? Is this likely to run
into as much money as an entire bike? If so, any opinions on
whether this frame is a platform worth upgrading?

Rear derailleur -- Suntour Edge (7-speed, index) Front
derailler -- Suntour Edge Triple (non-index) Shifters --
Suntour Edge downtube (7-speed, index) Rear hub/Cluster --
Suntour "sealed" hub ("XC", I think) with (non-cassette) 7-
speed freewheel Crankset/BB -- Sakae "Edge" road triple
Brakes -- DiaCompe Edge single-pivot sidepulls Chain --
Sedis (not sure of the model)

Wheels -- Front and rear are non-matching. The rear is the
Suntour described above with a Wolber (forgot the model),
brown-ish colored anodized alloy rim. The front is a Shimano
105 hub with the same rim as the rear. (I bought the bike as
a close-out floor model which had undergone a mysterious
wheel switcheroo)

Frame -- Specialized "Direct Drive" cro-mo double-butted
tubing throughout. Lugged and brzed; vertical dropouts;
lawyer lips. It fits and I like the way it handles, but if
it's one of those situations where everything has to go ...

Everything on the bike still works, though shifting is
definitely a little rougher than when it was new. I'm
reasonably handy with a wrench (though lousy at truing and
have never built a wheel). So I could do most of the work
myself. I'm in NYC, where shops are lousy and expensive, so
I'll probably have to anyway ...

Thanks in advance for advice John

I did a roughly parallel thing with a Suntour equipped bicycle when I could no longer buy Suntour cogs here in Australia. Suntour freewheels use variable spacing between cogs and this causes problems when used with other changers. Two suggestions:

* Buy the Campagnolo changers of your choice, but have the right one fitted with an 8-speed index disk. Buy a Campagnolo rear derailleur of the appropriate length and a 7-speed freewheel with a 5 mm cog spacing, such as a Maillard. Keep your cranks and front derailleur – the left Campag changer will work with them perfectly.

* Buy Campagnolo changers, rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub with 9-speed cassette, a 9-speed chain and a copy of Jobst Brandt’s “The Bicycle Wheel”. Re-build rear wheel. Use 10-speed stuff if you wish.

In the first case you don’t need to re-build the wheel, but you are dependent of a supply of cogs for an old freewheel.

Try to get replies from Peter Chisholm or Andrew Muzi – they have done a lot more of this stuff than I have.

John Retchford

JBAfromNY said:

I have an early 90's Specialized Sirrus Triple road bike
with a Suntour drivetrain and downtube shifters. The
combined brake/shift levers found on current roadbikes
seem like a very good idea, and I'd love to have them, but
am somewhat confused about what it would take to put them
on my bike. Here are the specifics of what I have now. How
much of this can be kept? What will have to go? What are
some reasonable options for new components? Is this likely
to run into as much money as an entire bike? If so, any
opinions on whether this frame is a platform worth
upgrading?

Rear derailleur -- Suntour Edge (7-speed, index) Front
derailler -- Suntour Edge Triple (non-index) Shifters --
Suntour Edge downtube (7-speed, index) Rear hub/Cluster --
Suntour "sealed" hub ("XC", I think) with (non-cassette)
7-speed freewheel Crankset/BB -- Sakae "Edge" road triple
Brakes -- DiaCompe Edge single-pivot sidepulls Chain --
Sedis (not sure of the model)

Wheels -- Front and rear are non-matching. The rear is the
Suntour described above with a Wolber (forgot the model),
brown-ish colored anodized alloy rim. The front is a
Shimano 105 hub with the same rim as the rear. (I bought
the bike as a close-out floor model which had undergone a
mysterious wheel switcheroo)

Frame -- Specialized "Direct Drive" cro-mo double-
butted tubing throughout. Lugged and brzed; vertical
dropouts; lawyer lips. It fits and I like the way it
handles, but if it's one of those situations where
everything has to go ...

Everything on the bike still works, though shifting is
definitely a little rougher than when it was new. I'm
reasonably handy with a wrench (though lousy at truing and
have never built a wheel). So I could do most of the work
myself. I'm in NYC, where shops are lousy and expensive,
so I'll probably have to anyway ...

Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your front
changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and the bike
fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the necessary
items: yellowjersey.orgergokit.htmlOpen ↗

It is technically possible to get older seven speed Shimano
STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain and a
Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid replacing the
rear wheel).

But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and crank
with BB) expense. You'd also avoid retracking the frame to
130mm, making that a possible at-home upgrade.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your
front changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and
the bike fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the
necessary items: yellowjersey.orgergokit.htmlOpen ↗

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ... This
means that my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and cranks
are all compatible with the campy levers, but that my rear
derailleur and freewheel are not, correct?

Quoted message said:

It is technically possible to get older seven speed
Shimano STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain
and a Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid
replacing the rear wheel).

But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and
crank with BB) expense.

I take it this means that there's some likelihood that
Shimano shifters won't work with the Suntour front
derailleur and the Sakae crank?

Quoted message said:

You'd also avoid retracking the frame to 130mm, making
that a possible at-home upgrade.

Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that
my Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle
spread out? Is there a way that I can check this?

A couple of further follow through questions:

1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I
want to use current production Shimano brifters, I'd have
to replace everything on the bike except the brake
calipers, but that if I go Campy, I'd get to keep my
crankset and front derailleur. Am I interpreting this
correctly? Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go
through with this I want to make sure I don't have to go
through too many iterations.

2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at what
you would charge (which seems reasonable) for a
conversion, it seems like this is a ca. $500 project
(unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano 7 speed
items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of
judgement, but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be
spending $500 to wind up with used bike (which is what I
paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW). Is this $500 well
spent, or could I get a better bike for the same money,
say, a new Trek 1000?

Thanks for your patience, John

JBAfromNY quoted Andy Muzi:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your
front changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and
the bike fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the
necessary items: yellowjersey.orgergokit.htmlOpen ↗

And re-asked:

Quoted message said:

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ...
This means that my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and
cranks are all compatible with the campy levers, but that
my rear derailleur and freewheel are not, correct?

Andy is correct, as usual.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is technically possible to get older seven speed
Shimano STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain
and a Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid
replacing the rear wheel).

But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and
crank with BB) expense.

I take it this means that there's some likelihood that
Shimano shifters won't work with the Suntour front
derailleur and the Sakae crank?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You'd also avoid retracking the frame to 130mm, making
that a possible at-home upgrade.

Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that
my Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle
spread out? Is there a way that I can check this?

Yes, take a ruler and measure your frame. There's an
illustration of how to do this (as well as
instructions for re-spacing the frame if needed) at:
sheldonbrown.comframe spacingOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

A couple of further follow through questions:

1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I
want to use current production Shimano brifters, I'd
have to replace everything on the bike except the brake
calipers,

No.

Quoted message said:

but that if I go Campy, I'd get to keep my crankset and
front derailleur. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go through with
this I want to make sure I don't have to go through too
many iterations.

Going through multiple iterations is the most cost-effective
way to go. You don't _know_ your old crank & bb won't work
'til you try it. (Front derailers are so cheap that's not
much of an issue.)

Quoted message said:

2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at
what you would charge (which seems reasonable) for a
conversion, it seems like this is a ca. $500 project
(unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano 7
speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of
judgement, but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be
spending $500 to wind up with used bike (which is what
I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW). Is this $500
well spent, or could I get a better bike for the same
money, say, a new Trek 1000?

I'm afraid there's been excessive snippage from this thread,
so I don't recall what kind of frame you've got, but if it's
one of the older lugged steel Specialized models, it's
likely very well worth fixing up...those were gorgeous,
beautifully built frames.

Sheldon "Old Frames, New Parts" Brown +----------------------------------------------
+
| Endless Loop: n., see Loop, Endless. |
| Loop, Endless: n., see Endless Loop. |
| --Random Shack Data Processing Dictionary |
+----------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

JBAfromNY said:

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your
front changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and
the bike fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the
necessary items: yellowjersey.orgergokit.htmlOpen ↗

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ...
This means that my front derailleur, brakes calipers, and
cranks are all compatible with the campy levers, but that
my rear derailleur and freewheel are not, correct?

Quoted message said:

It is technically possible to get older seven speed
Shimano STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain
and a Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid
replacing the rear wheel).

But that would be a severely limited format and may have a
hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and
crank with BB) expense.

I take it this means that there's some likelihood that
Shimano shifters won't work with the Suntour front
derailleur and the Sakae crank?

Quoted message said:

You'd also avoid retracking the frame to 130mm, making
that a possible at-home upgrade.

Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a certainty that
my Specialized frame would have to have the rear triangle
spread out? Is there a way that I can check this?

A couple of further follow through questions:

1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if I
want to use current production Shimano brifters, I'd
have to replace everything on the bike except the brake
calipers, but that if I go Campy, I'd get to keep my
crankset and front derailleur. Am I interpreting this
correctly? Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go
through with this I want to make sure I don't have to
go through too many iterations.

2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at
what you would charge (which seems reasonable) for a
conversion, it seems like this is a ca. $500 project
(unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano 7
speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind of
judgement, but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd be
spending $500 to wind up with used bike (which is what
I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW). Is this $500
well spent, or could I get a better bike for the same
money, say, a new Trek 1000?

Yes , it's relatively expensive and not probably a good
value on that bike.

Yes on everything else; Shimano STi can be set up with
"incompatible" fronts usually if it's a double, usually not
if a triple.

You might remove the rear wheel and measure it. Should be
126mm

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

JBAfromNY quoted Andy Muzi:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Assuming the equipment is in good shape, that is, your
front changer, brakes and crank are all serviceable and
the bike fits, here's one upgrade path, showing all the
necessary items:
yellowjersey.orgergokit.htmlOpen ↗

And re-asked:

Quoted message said:

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ...
This means that my front derailleur, brakes calipers,
and cranks are all compatible with the campy levers, but
that my rear derailleur and freewheel are not, correct?

Andy is correct, as usual.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is technically possible to get older seven speed
Shimano STi shifters and a Shimano type freewheel, chain
and a Shimano type rear changer ( and by that avoid
replacing the rear wheel).

But that would be a severely limited format and may have
a hidden front shifting ( maybe a new front changer and
crank with BB) expense.

I take it this means that there's some likelihood that
Shimano shifters won't work with the Suntour front
derailleur and the Sakae crank?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You'd also avoid retracking the frame to 130mm, making
that a possible at-home upgrade.

Do you [or anyone else] know whether it's a
certainty that my Specialized frame would have to
have the rear triangle spread out? Is there a way
that I can check this?

Yes, take a ruler and measure your frame. There's an
illustration of how to do this (as well as
instructions for re-spacing the frame if needed) at:
sheldonbrown.comframe spacingOpen ↗

Thanks. I'll check it tonight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A couple of further follow through questions:

1. If I'm understanding correctly, it seems that that if
I want to use current production Shimano brifters,
I'd have to replace everything on the bike except the
brake calipers,

No.

Quoted message said:

but that if I go Campy, I'd get to keep my crankset and
front derailleur. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Sorry to be dense about this, but if I go through with
this I want to make sure I don't have to go through too
many iterations.

Going through multiple iterations is the most cost-
effective way to go. You don't _know_ your old crank & bb
won't work 'til you try it. (Front derailers are so cheap
that's not much of an issue.)

Quoted message said:

2. Looking around at component prices, and looking at
what you would charge (which seems reasonable) for a
conversion, it seems like this is a ca. $500 project
(unless I can hunt down the questionable Shimano 7
speed items). I realize it's hard to make this kind
of judgement, but is it worthwhile? In essence, I'd
be spending $500 to wind up with used bike (which is
what I paid for the bike new in 1991, FWIW). Is this
$500 well spent, or could I get a better bike for
the same money, say, a new Trek 1000?

I'm afraid there's been excessive snippage from this
thread, so I don't recall what kind of frame you've got,
but if it's one of the older lugged steel Specialized
models, it's likely very well worth fixing up...those were
gorgeous, beautifully built frames.

I'm not sure what counts as "older" [I'm old enough to think
of things made in the '80's as newer, so ...], but the frame
is a Specialized lugged steel road frame. The frame decals
say it's made from Specialized "direct drive" double butted
"racing" tubes throughout. It also says made in Taiwan. The
model is a Sirrus Triple. I bought it in 1992, but it had
been sitting in the shop for a while, so I'm not certain
what the actual production year was.

John "likes his bike, but is mindful of admonitions about
silk purses and sow's ears" Albin