Unusual spoke patterns (was Re: 26" 144 spoke wheels)

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

As an alternative something like
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/3leading.htm
could give you a different look on a standard wheel.

[three leading, three trailing]

Does anyone know why the spokes in this wheel are interwoven? Does the
interweaving add anything structurally, or is it just aesthetic? If the
'outside' spokes just ran outside the 'inside' spokes all the way to
the rim it would make lacing much easier, and replacing broken spokes a
bit easier.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
;; education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

Very interesting pattern! I've never seen it before. I suppose they are interwoven to keep each spoke in as straight a line as is possible...ie from the hub to the rim. If all of the outside spokes just run inside the inside spokes the first spoke in the pattern would have a pretty severe path to the rim. It would be crossing the inside spoke very close to the hub flange putting much undo stress at the spoke head.
Probably in certain applications and perhaps decades ago in cycling when the quality of parts was not what it is today this pattern could have provided more strength. But I would think that, like in a "twisted" spoke wheel, because the spokes in this pattern are crossing at so many points that in reality it would react very sluggishly to loads. It would not be the super stiff and effecient wheel one might think. ? I dunno...but the look is somewhat cool...although replacing spokes would be a bother!!

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

As an alternative something like
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/3leading.htm
could give you a different look on a standard wheel.

Does anyone know why the spokes in this wheel are interwoven? Does the
interweaving add anything structurally, or is it just aesthetic? If the
'outside' spokes just ran outside the 'inside' spokes all the way to
the rim it would make lacing much easier, and replacing broken spokes a
bit easier.

I don't think interlacing is worth the trouble in 3-leading-3-trailing.
I've had good results without interlace; see
http://www.qnet.com/~crux/wheel.html

To quote from Jobst Brandt's book, "Interlaced spokes take up each
others slack during severe radial loading and reduce the chance of
spokes becoming loose." How important that is depends on the spoke
count, your weight, your riding habits, whether it's a dished wheel,
and so on. I haven't had a problem with spokes going slack in a
non-interlaced 36-spoke front wheel.

Tom Ace

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

As an alternative something like
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/3leading.htm
could give you a different look on a standard wheel.

[three leading, three trailing]

Does anyone know why the spokes in this wheel are interwoven? Does the
interweaving add anything structurally, or is it just aesthetic? If the
'outside' spokes just ran outside the 'inside' spokes all the way to
the rim it would make lacing much easier, and replacing broken spokes a
bit easier.

I Don't know why, but I built a set of wheels three leading three trailing
following an even slightly more interlaced picture at:
http://www.stormpages.com/spokeanwheel/lacingcl.htm
Building was fairly easy, took me about two hours to do the front and
about an hour to do the back. I don't know how hard it would be to
replace a spoke but so far I have around 3000 incident free miles on
front and rear and I weigh about 1050 newtons mass.

in message said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

As an alternative something like
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/3leading.htm
could give you a different look on a standard wheel.

Does anyone know why the spokes in this wheel are interwoven? Does
the interweaving add anything structurally, or is it just aesthetic?
If the 'outside' spokes just ran outside the 'inside' spokes all the
way to the rim it would make lacing much easier, and replacing broken
spokes a bit easier.

I don't think interlacing is worth the trouble in
3-leading-3-trailing. I've had good results without interlace; see
http://www.qnet.com/~crux/wheel.html

To quote from Jobst Brandt's book, "Interlaced spokes take up each
others slack during severe radial loading and reduce the chance of
spokes becoming loose." How important that is depends on the spoke
count, your weight, your riding habits, whether it's a dished wheel,
and so on. I haven't had a problem with spokes going slack in a
non-interlaced 36-spoke front wheel.

Thanks; that's kind of what I expected.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Smith

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan

Braggins (') said:

As an alternative something like
http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/3leading.htm
could give you a different look on a standard wheel.

[three leading, three trailing]

Does anyone know why the spokes in this wheel are interwoven? Does
the interweaving add anything structurally, or is it just aesthetic?
If the 'outside' spokes just ran outside the 'inside' spokes all the
way to the rim it would make lacing much easier, and replacing broken
spokes a bit easier.

I Don't know why, but I built a set of wheels three leading three
trailing following an even slightly more interlaced picture at:
http://www.stormpages.com/spokeanwheel/lacingcl.htm
Building was fairly easy, took me about two hours to do the front and
about an hour to do the back. I don't know how hard it would be to
replace a spoke but so far I have around 3000 incident free miles on
front and rear and I weigh about 1050 newtons mass.

OK, that site raises another question. On this page
<URL:http://www.stormpages.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm> the author
criticises the standard half-radial lacing of rear wheels (i.e. with
the radial lacing on the non-drive side) and instead recommends
half-radial lacing with the radial lacing on the drive side. I can sort
of see the logic of this in terms of the trigonometry and the tensions
in the spokes.

So why do most half-radials not follow this pattern? Is there a problem
with transmitting torque along the length of the hub? What are the
countervailing arguments?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

my other car is #<Subr-Car: #5d480>
;; This joke is not funny in emacs.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

OK, that site raises another question. On this page
<URL:http://www.stormpages.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm> the author
criticises the standard half-radial lacing of rear wheels (i.e. with
the radial lacing on the non-drive side) and instead recommends
half-radial lacing with the radial lacing on the drive side. I can sort
of see the logic of this in terms of the trigonometry and the tensions
in the spokes.

So why do most half-radials not follow this pattern? Is there a problem
with transmitting torque along the length of the hub? What are the
countervailing arguments?

The problem is indeed one of transmitting torque through the hub. In
addition to "wind-up" in the spokes, you would also suffer wind-up in
the hub body. Given that it seems a well-built wheel will not fail until
it suffers some extreme conditions, I would have though that the
proposed half-radial design wouldn't help a great deal, and could make
things worse.

BTW, as far as I'm aware, the half-radial design is basically an image
thing. I don't imagine that there is any practical difference in
strength or rigidity over a full 2X or 3X wheel.

Jon