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Unsafe At Any Speed

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UK and Europe
Published
5 November 2003
Last activity
7 November 2003
Original author
Just Zis Guy
Posts
19
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  1. Another belly laugh for you all!

    For those who remember P**l Sm*th's risible 12mph Comedy Web Page, you might enjoy this:
    safespeed.org.uk12mphcomment.html - to save you gratifying the loony with another hit on
    his webshite, here's the content with comments:

    Quoted message said:

    A cyclist called Guy Chapman thought the previous page was worthy of ridicule and has set up the
    following web page: (chapmancentral.demon.co.ukSafeSpeed)

    Oops! He failed to mention the fact that I am a driver and train user as well as a cyclist. As were
    many of the others who so comprehensively demolished his childish twaddle. In fact he misses any
    mention of the Great Usenet Trouncing at all. I wonder why?

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously Mr Chapman completely failed to understand the purpose or intention of the work. He also
    made the following errors of fact or understanding:

    Oops! He forgot the extensive debate in which he described the purpose and intention in detail, and
    was roundly trounced. I can see why memory might draw a veil over such humiliation...

    FWIW, we all understood perfectly well the purpose of the exercise: it was to "prove" that slower
    speeds don't save lives using source material which proves the direct oposite.

    Quoted message said:

    "vulnerable road users." No Guy. If the work had addressed vulnerable road users the headline
    number would have been even lower than 12 mph.

    Oops! The line he's partially quoted is: "Including only car drivers excludes one of the principal
    groups affected by excessive speed - vulnerable road users. These are significantly more likely to
    be killed, and speed plays a very large part in turning an injury into a fatality for these
    vulnerable road users." We all know the relative pedestrian survival rates at different impact
    speeds. We also know that if the cars were genuinely doing 12mph many of us wuld be able to outrun
    or outride the cars. In other words, the premise is risible. Which is back where we started :-)

    Quoted message said:

    "This assumes that the drivers will not brake" Yes Guy. Of course it does. That's the point.

    Oops! That's not what he said in the Great Rambling Thread, and if it is his point then it's a
    blatantly stupid one. After all, we /could/ re-introduce the Red Flag Act and still have the same
    number of fatalities provided all pedestrians were nailed to the pavement and drivers ran them over
    deliberately. It's just not very likely. Just as it's not very illuminating to suggest that fatality
    levels would be unchanged at 12mph provided drivers no longer brake. Oh, and he doesn't address the
    undoubted fact that one of his cherished motorists crashing at 12mph in a car which meets the euro
    NCAP requirements will almost certainly walk away unscathed.

    Quoted message said:

    "you're using the formula for V when it's clearly meant to be applied to delta V" But of course
    we're entitled to assume that delta v is equal to v because it's driver response in most cases
    which separate the two.

    Oops! The selectively quoted text misses out the part where this is pointed out. And misses the part
    where it's made clear that this argument was in any case advanced by someone else (Simon Proven).
    And of course V only equals delta V when the driver fails to brake - how likely is that outside
    SmithWorld(TM)?

    Quoted message said:

    "you can't apply this formula to the average speed" We agree that this leads to an estimation
    error, but the estimation error is always to overestimate the speed from the probability of death.
    So the error, if corrected, would make the headline conclusion smaller. Perhaps 10 or 11 mph
    instead of 12 mph.

    Oops! Missed the point entirely. The point is that he's making things up, and the formulae he's
    using to make things up are irrational, mis-applied, and in any case reliant on a complete failure
    of the driver concerned to take any avoiding action.

    Quoted message said:

    "The 70% don't speed all the time" with a ratio of 1,500:1, it hardly matters if the speeding
    proportion is 30% or 70%. (and in the free travelling conditions where speed enforcement has its
    greatest effects it's usually on the high side) It's still a massive ratio. 50% of 1,500:1 is
    still 750:1.

    Oops! As Smith's source says, "Vehicles exceeding the 90th percentile speed or traveling more than 7
    km/h faster (4 mi/h) than the speed limit and median speed had above average injury crash
    involvement rates." Sorry, Paul, you can't extrapolate from fragments of the research which support
    your ludicrous agenda and at the same time ignore the bulk of that same research which directly
    contradicts you.

    Quoted message said:

    Never mind Guy. Better luck next time.

    Never mind, Paul, if it's taken you over six months to come up with this negligible comeback perhaps
    you should stick to the day job. Oh, you haven't got one.

    "P**l Sm*th, Full-time road safety campaigner" - or is it "unemployed speedophile?"

    --
    Guy
    ===
    WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

  2. Just zis Guy said:

    Another belly laugh for you all!

    He's really got under your skin Guy. Stop scratching and it will stop itching ;-)

    Tony

  3. Tony Raven said:
    Just zis Guy said:

    Another belly laugh for you all!

    He's really got under your skin Guy. Stop scratching and it will stop itching ;-)

    Well, that might have been delivered in jest, but Guy is right. People like Plonker Smith are
    dangerously sutpid, more so that the average stupid person because they seek to justify their
    stupidity with a thin patina of scientific respectability which sadly bemuses and befuddles other
    stupid people. Eventually, recieved stupidity becomes mainstream and so we all become, on average,
    more stupid as a result.

    Frankly, someone ought to take him aside and explain quite how stupid he is, and by means of an
    example of abject stupidity, they ought to kick his effing teeth so far down his intestinal tract
    that he has to stick his toothbrush up his bum to clean them. Now, I know that's a stupid thing to
    do, and I wouldn't for one minute suggest to anyone that they actually do it, because that'd be
    really stupid (although, cleverly, not as stupid as PS), but there are a lot of stupid people out
    there, and who knows, one of them might just be stupid enough to do it!

    With Crossed Fingers, Trev

  4. I'm beginning to think I should set up my own campaign for sensible speed limits.

    Being a responsible motorist, I'm all for speed limits (and cameras) (therefore I'm sick of P**l
    Sm*th), but I'd like to be able to travel as fast as is safe (and am therefore sick of the
    consequences of P**l Sm*th)

    The pathetic level of the mainstream road safety debate quite frankly makes me sick.

    ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

    That is all.

  5. Trevor Barton said:


    Well, that might have been delivered in jest, but Guy is right. People like Plonker Smith are
    dangerously sutpid, more so that the average stupid person because they seek to justify their
    stupidity with a thin patina of scientific respectability which sadly bemuses and befuddles other
    stupid people. Eventually, recieved stupidity becomes mainstream and so we all become, on average,
    more stupid as a result.

    Frankly, someone ought to take him aside and explain quite how stupid he is, and by means of an
    example of abject stupidity, they ought to kick his effing teeth so far down his intestinal tract
    that he has to stick his toothbrush up his bum to clean them. Now, I know that's a stupid thing to
    do, and I wouldn't for one minute suggest to anyone that they actually do it, because that'd be
    really stupid (although, cleverly, not as stupid as PS), but there are a lot of stupid people out
    there, and who knows, one of them might just be stupid enough to do it!

    I think you should give people more credit.

    As for converting him, for years naive folk have been bashing their brains out arguing with and
    getting wound up by a certain Mr V**d**m*n. Virtually no-one believes what he says and he is *never*
    going to change his views but the only publicity he gets is from people persistently trying to
    wrestle with him. Accept PS is in the same camp, don't give him the benefit of the publicity that he
    gets everytime he is argued with and don't let him win by getting you wound up. He won't go away but
    he can be made damn near invisible.

    Tony

  6. Tony Raven said:

    Accept PS is in the same camp, don't give him the benefit of the publicity that he gets everytime
    he is argued with and don't let him win by getting you wound up. He won't go away but he can be
    made damn near invisible.

    I believe you are wrong on this. Yes, *we* can ignore him until we go blue in the face, though the
    hope is always that it will be him! But, this is a guy who actively promotes himself to the media as
    a road safety campaigner. He has become involved in campaigns throughout the UK, the Arrive Alive
    campaign in North Wales for instance. Unchallenged, his press releases and media appearances give
    the impression of a well-founded scientific basis to his 'work'. He won't go way, he needs to be
    challenged. Perhaps this isn't the place to do it but when he gets newspaper space or time on radio
    people do need to respond to the factual and statistical errors in his information.

    Colin
    --

  7. "Nathaniel Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Being a responsible motorist, I'm all for speed limits (and cameras) (therefore I'm sick of P**l
    Sm*th), but I'd like to be able to travel as fast as is safe (and am therefore sick of the
    consequences of P**l Sm*th)

    Define "safe". PS thinks that 150mph is safe on public A roads in good conditions. I'm sure you
    could get away with it alive a few times.

    Quoted message said:

    The pathetic level of the mainstream road safety debate quite frankly


    makes

    Quoted message said:

    me sick.

    noo-labour bashing, mad conspiracy theories, and plain childishness.

    Just to share this one with you PS thinks the "scam" in cameras is that some people somewhere want
    the power rush from being able to run an office with lots of pen pushers sorting out the paper work.
    "David Brent" perhaps ?

  8. Tony Raven said:

    He's really got under your skin Guy. Stop scratching and it will stop itching ;-)

    Eh? No, I was quite flattered really, that he's so transparently failed to rebut my little page
    after what seems to be several months of effort. Time was when you could have a reasonable
    conversation with Smith, but I think he lost it a while back. Along with his job, by all
    appearances.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

  9. "Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in the face, though the hope is always that it will be him! But, this is a guy who actively
    promotes himself to the media as a road safety campaigner.

    The media like that sort of [censored], and never need to explain why its wrong.

  10. Trevor Barton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony Raven said:
    Just zis Guy said:

    Another belly laugh for you all!


    He's really got under your skin Guy. Stop scratching and it will stop itching ;-)


    Well, that might have been delivered in jest, but Guy is right. People like Plonker Smith are
    dangerously sutpid, more so that the average stupid person because they seek to justify their
    stupidity with a thin patina of scientific respectability which sadly bemuses and befuddles other
    stupid people. Eventually, recieved stupidity becomes mainstream and so we all become, on average,
    more stupid as a result.

    Or, as Edmund Burke put it rather more succinctly, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
    is for good men to do nothing."

    --
    Dave...

  11. W K said:
    Quoted message said:

    Being a responsible motorist, I'm all for speed limits (and cameras) (therefore I'm sick of P**l
    Sm*th), but I'd like to be able to travel as fast as is safe (and am therefore sick of the
    consequences of P**l Sm*th)

    Define "safe". PS thinks that 150mph is safe on public A roads in good conditions. I'm sure you
    could get away with it alive a few times.

    I have.

    --
    Marc. Please note the above address is a spam trap, use marcc to reply Printing for clubs of all
    types jaceeprint.demon.co.ukjaceeprint.demon.co.uk Stickers, banners & clothing, for clubs,teams, magazines
    and dealers.

  12. "W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Nathaniel Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Being a responsible motorist, I'm all for speed limits (and cameras) (therefore I'm sick of P**l
    Sm*th), but I'd like to be able to travel as fast as is safe (and am therefore sick of the
    consequences of P**l


    Sm*th)

    Quoted message said:


    Define "safe". PS thinks that 150mph is safe on public A roads in good conditions. I'm sure you
    could get away with it alive a few times.

    Obviously there is a balance. There is no such thing is "safe" or "dangerous", there is merely
    acceptably dangerous and unacceptably dangerous. With your example of rural A roads (presumably
    single carriageway for your example?), I think 60 works fine for the national limit, although some A
    roads 70 would be acceptable[1] - and indeed there are some where 30 (or in some instances less)
    would be more in order.

    All I ask is we don't lower the speed limits on the faster roads unless the speed limit was actually
    too high, and that we raise them where they are too low.

    [1] It would be nice if the authorities could raise the speed limit to 70 on these roads, but I
    don't believe that's possible given the way the speed limit system works - and I don't advocate
    raising the NSL limit just for the sake of a few unusually good roads.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Just to share this one with you PS thinks the "scam" in cameras is that


    some

    Quoted message said:

    people somewhere want the power rush from being able to run an office with lots of pen pushers
    sorting out the paper work. "David Brent" perhaps ?

    LOL

  13. marc said:
    Quoted message said:

    Define "safe". PS thinks that 150mph is safe on public A roads in good conditions. I'm sure you
    could get away with it alive a few times.

    Quoted message said:

    I have.

    You want to watch out for those dangerous trees, though...

    --
    Guy
    ===
    WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

  14. Just zis Guy said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Define "safe". PS thinks that 150mph is safe on public A roads in good conditions. I'm sure you
    could get away with it alive a few times.

    Quoted message said:

    I have.

    You want to watch out for those dangerous trees, though...

    Actually on one ocassion it was a "dangerous" Volvo that did a three point turn in front of me....

    --
    Marc. Please note the above address is a spam trap, use marcc to reply Printing for clubs of all
    types jaceeprint.demon.co.ukjaceeprint.demon.co.uk Stickers, banners & clothing, for clubs,teams, magazines
    and dealers.

  15. Tony Raven said:

    for years naive folk have been bashing their brains out arguing with and getting wound up by a
    certain Mr V**d**m*n.

    Scoring points of Vandemann is easier, but Smith seems to take it more personally. Both are, of
    course, completely hatstand. But I think Smith was not, at one point. I honestly think he's got some
    problem (other than his obvious delusions of adequacy). Look at the long periods spent "away" and
    the fact that he now describes himself as a "full-time" road safety campaigner (which indicates lack
    of a day job).

    --
    Guy
    ===
    WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

  16. For someone who's relatively new here, who/what is Vandermann?

  17. Just zis Guy said:


    Scoring points of Vandemann is easier, but Smith seems to take it more personally.

    But why do you want to score points - to look good? Its not changing their views one iota so you can
    only be doing it to feel good yourself or look good to your audience. About as useful trying to
    persuade the Taliban to become christians.

    Tony

  18. Nathaniel Porter said:

    For someone who's relatively new here, who/what is Vandermann?

    He whose name must not be spoken from the Harry Potter books

    Tony

  19. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Tony Raven

    BNathaniel Porter said:

    For someone who's relatively new here, who/what is Vandermann?

    He whose name must not be spoken from the Harry Potter books

    Tony [/B]

    It is a misspelling of Vandemann. He is an environmental campaigner who spends a lot of time trolling mountain biking newsgroups. Some of his points are even valid but they are rather overshadowed, imo, by his being the worst sort of usenet nutter

    best wishes
    james

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