Unlike rbr....

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html

Toujours pas crédible

Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien a
publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement tant
attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion.

Les chiffres qui ressortent du sondage Ipsos réalisé dans quatre pays
européens (France, Allemagne, Espagne et Italie) sont éloquents. Une
grande majorité des gens (79%) associent cyclisme avec dopage. Le
phénomène est d'autant plus fort en France (97%) depuis l'affaire Festina
en 1998 et les dernières révélations sur Lance Armstrong.

Les affaires de dopage et les tragédies se multiplient dans tous les pays,
les contrôles sont toujours plus performants, les chartes de l'éthique et
les codes de bonne conduite se succèdent et pourtant le cyclisme reste
dans son marasme à base d'"omerta" pour éviter l'exclusion.

La France isolée
Le pire est sans doute de constater que les instances dirigeantes ne
veulent pas prendre leurs responsabilités. Le Néerlandais Hein Verbruggen,
ancien président de l'UCI, n'a pas été exempt de tout reproche et son
successeur, l'Irlandais Pat McQuaid, n'offre pas toutes les garanties de
réussite dans ce dossier. Le nouveau président est certes conscient que le
cyclisme est en danger et de l'ampleur de la tâche qui lui incombe mais il
reste très frileux dans son jugement et stigmatise l'attitude de la France
à ce sujet.

Le sondage fait ressortir un détail important, voire capital : le public
n'est pas dupe. Au contraire, on dénote que l'opinion publique reste
pragmatique sur les valeurs véhiculées par ce sport. En définitive,
nombreux sont les sondés qui continuent de penser que les coureurs
cyclistes restent de grands champions avec ou sans dopage.

What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say that
the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui prouve que
l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one could determine
truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.

In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public opinion
is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with more cheaters
being caught and brought to light, new detection methods being introduced,
stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears more about serious doping
in cycling and has a more negative opinion despite progress being made.

Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html

Toujours pas crédible

Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien
a publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement
tant attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion.

Les chiffres qui ressortent du sondage Ipsos réalisé dans quatre pays
européens (France, Allemagne, Espagne et Italie) sont éloquents. Une
grande majorité des gens (79%) associent cyclisme avec dopage. Le
phénomène est d'autant plus fort en France (97%) depuis l'affaire Festina
en 1998 et les dernières révélations sur Lance Armstrong.

Les affaires de dopage et les tragédies se multiplient dans tous les
pays, les contrôles sont toujours plus performants, les chartes de
l'éthique et les codes de bonne conduite se succèdent et pourtant le
cyclisme reste dans son marasme à base d'"omerta" pour éviter
l'exclusion.

La France isolée
Le pire est sans doute de constater que les instances dirigeantes ne
veulent pas prendre leurs responsabilités. Le Néerlandais Hein
Verbruggen, ancien président de l'UCI, n'a pas été exempt de tout
reproche et son successeur, l'Irlandais Pat McQuaid, n'offre pas toutes
les garanties de réussite dans ce dossier. Le nouveau président est
certes conscient que le cyclisme est en danger et de l'ampleur de la
tâche qui lui incombe mais il reste très frileux dans son jugement et
stigmatise l'attitude de la France à ce sujet.

Le sondage fait ressortir un détail important, voire capital : le public
n'est pas dupe. Au contraire, on dénote que l'opinion publique reste
pragmatique sur les valeurs véhiculées par ce sport. En définitive,
nombreux sont les sondés qui continuent de penser que les coureurs
cyclistes restent de grands champions avec ou sans dopage.

What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say that
the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui prouve
que l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one could
determine truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.

In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public
opinion is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with more
cheaters being caught and brought to light, new detection methods being
introduced, stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears more about
serious doping in cycling and has a more negative opinion despite progress
being made.

Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported
in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the cleaning up
of the sport is an illusion. The article then goes on to note the findings
of a poll conducted in several European countries. They are not saying that
public opinion "proves" the sport is dirty.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html

What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say
that the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui
prouve que l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one
could determine truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.

In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public
opinion is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with
more cheaters being caught and brought to light, new detection methods
being introduced, stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears more
about serious doping in cycling and has a more negative opinion despite
progress being made.

Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong
reported in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the
cleaning up of the sport is an illusion. The article then goes on to note
the findings of a poll conducted in several European countries. They are
not saying that public opinion "proves" the sport is dirty.

You've either misread or mis-interpreted the first paragraph, Brian. It
says-

"Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien a
publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement tant
attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion."

Translation-
"Following the revelations in the columns of L'Equipe about the positive
samples of Lance Armstrong during the Tour of France 1999, the daily
newspaper published Wednesday a survey which tends to prove that the much
awaited cleanup of cycling remains a sweet illusion."

The only link stated is between ***the publishing*** of the Armstrong
article and the the poll (l'enquête)- and it's a chronological rather than
causal link. It says right there that it is the enquete (i.e. public
opinion poll which they then go on to describe in the rest of the article)
which tends to prove that the clean up of cycling is an illusion. Whereas
you claim it is the six positives that prove it- ("What the full paragraph
says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported in the L'Equipe article
[last August], tends to prove that the cleaning up of the sport is an
illusion."😉

Again, I say it's hogwash to state that an opinion poll tells us anything
about whether or not cycling is actually being cleaned up.

B. Lafferty said:

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported
in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the cleaning up
of the sport is an illusion.

And a mighty profitable illusion it is.

Note the pile of bodies at the entrance. --D-y

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html
What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say
that the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui
prouve que l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one
could determine truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.

In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public
opinion is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with
more cheaters being caught and brought to light, new detection methods
being introduced, stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears more
about serious doping in cycling and has a more negative opinion despite
progress being made.

Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong
reported in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the
cleaning up of the sport is an illusion. The article then goes on to
note the findings of a poll conducted in several European countries.
They are not saying that public opinion "proves" the sport is dirty.

You've either misread or mis-interpreted the first paragraph, Brian. It
says-

"Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien a
publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement tant
attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion."

Translation-
"Following the revelations in the columns of L'Equipe about the positive
samples of Lance Armstrong during the Tour of France 1999, the daily
newspaper published Wednesday a survey which tends to prove that the much
awaited cleanup of cycling remains a sweet illusion."

The only link stated is between ***the publishing*** of the Armstrong
article and the the poll (l'enquête)- and it's a chronological rather than
causal link. It says right there that it is the enquete (i.e. public
opinion poll which they then go on to describe in the rest of the article)
which tends to prove that the clean up of cycling is an illusion. Whereas
you claim it is the six positives that prove it- ("What the full paragraph
says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported in the L'Equipe
article [last August], tends to prove that the cleaning up of the sport is
an illusion."😉

Again, I say it's hogwash to state that an opinion poll tells us anything
about whether or not cycling is actually being cleaned up.

I see your point. However, the survey was done post-Mabray, so I think the
link to the positives is the real issue in the survey. That said, I'd like
to see the entire article as published. The web article notes that the
survey shows the public is not easily deceived and yet it still thinks the
cyclists are champions, with or without doping.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email hidden]...
>> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html
> What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say
> that the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui
> prouve que l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one
> could determine truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.
>
> In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public
> opinion is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with
> more cheaters being caught and brought to light, new detection methods
> being introduced, stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears
> more about serious doping in cycling and has a more negative opinion
> despite progress being made.
>
> Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.
>

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong
reported in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the
cleaning up of the sport is an illusion. The article then goes on to
note the findings of a poll conducted in several European countries.
They are not saying that public opinion "proves" the sport is dirty.

You've either misread or mis-interpreted the first paragraph, Brian. It
says-

"Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien
a publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement
tant attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion."

Translation-
"Following the revelations in the columns of L'Equipe about the positive
samples of Lance Armstrong during the Tour of France 1999, the daily
newspaper published Wednesday a survey which tends to prove that the much
awaited cleanup of cycling remains a sweet illusion."

The only link stated is between ***the publishing*** of the Armstrong
article and the the poll (l'enquête)- and it's a chronological rather
than causal link. It says right there that it is the enquete (i.e.
public opinion poll which they then go on to describe in the rest of the
article) which tends to prove that the clean up of cycling is an
illusion. Whereas you claim it is the six positives that prove it- ("What
the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported
in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the cleaning
up of the sport is an illusion."😉

Again, I say it's hogwash to state that an opinion poll tells us anything
about whether or not cycling is actually being cleaned up.

I see your point. However, the survey was done post-Mabray, so I think
the link to the positives is the real issue in the survey. That said, I'd
like to see the entire article as published. The web article notes that
the survey shows the public is not easily deceived and yet it still thinks
the cyclists are champions, with or without doping.

Well, I suppose we can infer that the implication l'Equipe wants to pur
forward is that l'affaire Armstrong has caused the public opinion to be
(more) negative (it's disabused them of their illusions), but given that we
don't have a similar pre- 8/23 poll to compare it too, there's no way of
knowing. I agree that it's interesting that the public sees cyclists as
champions- doped or not, but it's not much of a revelation. Cycling
continues to grow in popularity, at the same time, there are few who say
that drugs aren't a problem.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html
What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say
that the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui
prouve que l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one
could determine truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.

In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public
opinion is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with
more cheaters being caught and brought to light, new detection methods
being introduced, stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears more
about serious doping in cycling and has a more negative opinion despite
progress being made.

Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong
reported in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the
cleaning up of the sport is an illusion. The article then goes on to
note the findings of a poll conducted in several European countries.
They are not saying that public opinion "proves" the sport is dirty.

You've either misread or mis-interpreted the first paragraph, Brian. It
says-

"Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien a
publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement tant
attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion."

Translation-
"Following the revelations in the columns of L'Equipe about the positive
samples of Lance Armstrong during the Tour of France 1999, the daily
newspaper published Wednesday a survey which tends to prove that the much
awaited cleanup of cycling remains a sweet illusion."

The only link stated is between ***the publishing*** of the Armstrong
article and the the poll (l'enquête)- and it's a chronological rather than
causal link. It says right there that it is the enquete (i.e. public
opinion poll which they then go on to describe in the rest of the article)
which tends to prove that the clean up of cycling is an illusion. Whereas
you claim it is the six positives that prove it- ("What the full paragraph
says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported in the L'Equipe
article [last August], tends to prove that the cleaning up of the sport is
an illusion."😉

Again, I say it's hogwash to state that an opinion poll tells us anything
about whether or not cycling is actually being cleaned up.

The article doesn't claim to tell us whether cycling is OR is not moving in
the right direction vis a vis doping. ONLY that the public doesn't believe
it is; EVEN if they are told so by the powers that be.

"matabala" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email hidden]...
>> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20051005_092034Dev.html
> What a load of [censored]. The very first paragraph is ridiculous. They say
> that the poll proves that cycling is not any cleaner. (une enquête qui
> prouve que l'assainissement du cyclisme est une illusion.) As if one
> could determine truth just by taking a poll of public opinion.
>
> In fact, one could just as easily make the case that the poor public
> opinion is a result of the good work being done fighting doping, with
> more cheaters being caught and brought to light, new detection methods
> being introduced, stiffer penalties, meaning that the public hears
> more about serious doping in cycling and has a more negative opinion
> despite progress being made.
>
> Public opinion polls are useless for determining facts.
>

What the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong
reported in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the
cleaning up of the sport is an illusion. The article then goes on to
note the findings of a poll conducted in several European countries.
They are not saying that public opinion "proves" the sport is dirty.

You've either misread or mis-interpreted the first paragraph, Brian. It
says-

"Suite aux révélations dans les colonnes de L'Equipe sur les échantillons
positifs de Lance Armstrong pendant le Tour de France 1999, le quotidien
a publié mercredi une enquête qui tend à prouver que l'assainissement
tant attendu du cyclisme reste une douce illusion."

Translation-
"Following the revelations in the columns of L'Equipe about the positive
samples of Lance Armstrong during the Tour of France 1999, the daily
newspaper published Wednesday a survey which tends to prove that the much
awaited cleanup of cycling remains a sweet illusion."

The only link stated is between ***the publishing*** of the Armstrong
article and the the poll (l'enquête)- and it's a chronological rather
than causal link. It says right there that it is the enquete (i.e.
public opinion poll which they then go on to describe in the rest of the
article) which tends to prove that the clean up of cycling is an
illusion. Whereas you claim it is the six positives that prove it- ("What
the full paragraph says is that the six positives of Armstrong reported
in the L'Equipe article [last August], tends to prove that the cleaning
up of the sport is an illusion."😉

Again, I say it's hogwash to state that an opinion poll tells us anything
about whether or not cycling is actually being cleaned up.

The article doesn't claim to tell us whether cycling is OR is not moving
in the right direction vis a vis doping. ONLY that the public doesn't
believe it is; EVEN if they are told so by the powers that be.

And told otherwise by the papers that be. Which do you suppose has more
influence on public opinion, L'Equipe or Verbrugge (as quoted in l'Equipe).

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And told otherwise by the papers that be. Which do you suppose has more
influence on public opinion, L'Equipe or Verbrugge (as quoted in
l'Equipe).

You don't think the Euro public take/took Hein seriously? ;-)

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I suppose we can infer that the implication l'Equipe wants to pur
forward is that l'affaire Armstrong has caused the public opinion to be
(more) negative (it's disabused them of their illusions), but given that
we don't have a similar pre- 8/23 poll to compare it too, there's no way
of knowing. I agree that it's interesting that the public sees cyclists as
champions- doped or not, but it's not much of a revelation. Cycling
continues to grow in popularity, at the same time, there are few who say
that drugs aren't a problem.

All that I've read and from conversations with French cyclists, Europeans
have never taken seriously rider protestations of not using drugs. Some
care, some don't. I know a guy, a recently retired Gendarme age 55, who
works with young cyclists in a French club. He is upset now, as opposed to
20 years ago, not by the idea of doping, but by the fact that doping has
become too dangerous, in his opinion, to be tolerated for the sake of the
young riders coming up.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And told otherwise by the papers that be. Which do you suppose has more
influence on public opinion, L'Equipe or Verbrugge (as quoted in
l'Equipe).

You don't think the Euro public take/took Hein seriously? ;-)

I think the majority of people who answered the Equipe survey don't even
know who he is.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And told otherwise by the papers that be. Which do you suppose has more
influence on public opinion, L'Equipe or Verbrugge (as quoted in
l'Equipe).

You don't think the Euro public take/took Hein seriously? ;-)

I think the majority of people who answered the Equipe survey don't even
know who he is.

And are probably better off for not knowing.