Under or over seat steering?

paul said:

Ok, so I've been and had a play, and I want one. The bike
in question is the new machine from HPvelotecnic, the
grasshopper. It's the business 😄 Now I started this
search with firm views that recumbents should have USS,
but the demo bike had above seat steering. I still think
the USS looks better, but what are the pros and cons of
each steering type?

Probably the main reason I went for USS is that it
looks cool :-)

USS is more comfortable IMHO. It also has the advantage that
you can leap off of the bike as you stop, which doesn't work
well with OSS.

OSS has aerodynamic advantages, as your arms are in the
wind shadow of your body. With USS, your arms are out at
the side with their own wind shadow. But I believe the
Grasshopper, like the Street Machine, is built more for
comfort than for speed.

Did you try any other bikes with USS?

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗
Why I like OE6 - speedy5.freeserve.co.ukoe6.htmlOpen ↗
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

I would advise, if the bike comes both USS/OSS, and
especially if you aren't sure, get the USS. Reason: USS is
usually a more expensive set up, and you can then try the
OSS latter.

Danny Colyer said:

paul said:

Ok, so I've been and had a play, and I want one. The bike
in question is the new machine from HPvelotecnic, the
grasshopper. It's the business 😄 Now I started this
search with firm views that recumbents should have USS,
but the demo bike had above seat steering. I still think
the USS looks better, but what are the pros and cons of
each steering type?

Probably the main reason I went for USS is that it looks
cool :-)

USS is more comfortable IMHO. It also has the advantage
that you can leap off of the bike as you stop, which
doesn't work well with OSS.

OSS has aerodynamic advantages, as your arms are in the
wind shadow of your body. With USS, your arms are out at
the side with their own wind shadow. But I believe the
Grasshopper, like the Street Machine, is built more for
comfort than for speed.

Did you try any other bikes with USS?

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my
reply address) speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗
Why I like OE6 -
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukoe6.htmlOpen ↗ "He
who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Did you try any other bikes with USS?

Not yet, I'm still at the 'wow, look at that' stage. I am
trying to be rational. honest
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

"Danny Colyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

paul wrote:
. I still

Quoted message said:

think the USS looks better, but what are the pros and
cons of each steering type?

Probably the main reason I went for USS is that it looks
cool :-)

Guilty as charged, m'lud...

Quoted message said:

USS is more comfortable IMHO. It also has the advantage
that you can leap off of the bike as you stop, which
doesn't work well with OSS.

Do you go for the hammer on the front anchor, wait as the
front of the bike dips and recoils, and bounce out of the
seat as the rear shock rebounds?

Or have I just got my suspension set too boingy? (Or being
somewhat childish - I don't think I've had this much fun
with a toy since I was six.)

Slightly more seriously, I've found USS incredibly relaxing,
occasionally twitchy, but I'm putting that down to the
learning curve. However, with USS, your turning circle is
somewhat large because your body gets in the way (your foot
can intersect the front wheel too). On my commute I have to
negotiate a hairpin curve on a grade separated crossing - on
the MTB it was a no brainer, on the 'bent with USS I have to
be careful. Other than that, aero issues aside, I can't
think of a problem with USS.

E

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I would advise, if the bike comes both USS/OSS, and
especially if you aren't sure, get the USS. Reason: USS is
usually a more expensive set up, and you can then try the
OSS latter.

Now that is thinking I can relate to 🙂
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

after market OSS set ups are really cheap Paul, and
aftermarket USS are really difficult. I'm assuming this is a
indirect linkage USS? if so, that is all the most money.

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I would advise, if the bike comes both USS/OSS, and
especially if you aren't sure, get the USS. Reason: USS is
usually a more expensive set up, and you can then try the
OSS latter.

Now that is thinking I can relate to 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I would advise, if the bike comes both USS/OSS, and
especially if you aren't sure, get the USS. Reason: USS
is usually a more expensive set up, and you can then try
the OSS latter.

Now that is thinking I can relate to 🙂

after market OSS set ups are really cheap Paul, and
aftermarket USS are really difficult. I'm assuming this is
a indirect linkage USS? if so, that is all the most money.

Yup, indirect USS. Seems this is a bit of a no brainer if
you think you want USS but aren't sure.

anyone for the defence of OSS?
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

Frobnitz said:

Do you go for the hammer on the front anchor, wait as the
front of the bike dips and recoils, and bounce out of the
seat as the rear shock rebounds?

Yup :-)

Quoted message said:

However, with USS, your turning circle is somewhat large
because your body gets in the way (your foot can intersect
the front wheel too). On my commute I have to negotiate a
hairpin curve on a grade separated crossing - on the MTB
it was a no brainer, on the 'bent with USS I have to be
careful.

How long have you been riding?

On my cyclepath commute I have to take a 90 degree left,
pass through a gate just a little over 3' wide, cross a
railway, go through another gate and start my 90 degree
right turn before I am completely through. It took a few
months to get the hang of doing it without dismounting, but
I find it easy now (it helps that I've done it well over
1000 times). Sitting up helps, and of course I have to make
sure my feet are positioned so that they don't intersect
with the wheel.

(You can see the gates in question at url:http://www.speedy-
5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/cycling/commute/vircom.html , just
after the bollards.)

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗
Why I like OE6 - speedy5.freeserve.co.ukoe6.htmlOpen ↗
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

I think you should go with what you are more comfortable with, but here are
some disadvantages for USS:

1. It is heavier and more complicated.
2. It is less aerodynamic. Arms at your side block the air
more than if in front of you.
3. It makes the bike wider so that it might be harder to
maneuver through narrow spaces. Also, will take up more
width on a roof rack on your car.
4. It is harder to walk the bike because you have to lean
way over to hold the handlebars to steer the bike.

By "looks better" do you mean aesthetically pleasing? My
priority would be comfort and convenience, not aesthetics.
Your priorities may be different. Some people think that USS
is more comfortable, some don't. Some feel that USS is a
more natural position. Most agree that you lose some
performance with USS, but then there is the comfort factor
which is quite individual. Try both and then decide. Keep in
mind that OSS comes in different flavors also. In one type
your arms are directly in front of you. Some call this the
"praying hamster" position. Then there is the type where
your legs move between your arms which are outstretched, the
"tweener" postion. These 2 positions feel quite different.
Try them both.

"paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok, so I've been and had a play, and I want one. The bike
in question is the new machine from HPvelotecnic, the
grasshopper. It's the business 😄 Now I started this
search with firm views that recumbents should have USS,
but the demo bike had above seat steering. I still think
the USS looks better, but what are the pros and cons of
each steering type?

thans for your help.
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

Harry Spatz said:

here are some disadvantages for USS:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

3. It makes the bike wider so that it might be harder to
maneuver through narrow spaces. Also, will take up
more width on a roof rack on your car.

I forgot to mention this one. I imagine filtering would
be easier with OSS than with USS, though after commuting
with USS for 3 years I don't have much of a problem
filtering any more.

Quoted message said:

4. It is harder to walk the bike because you have to lean
way over to hold the handlebars to steer the bike.

That depends very much on the bike and particularly the
height of the seat. IME it is easier to push a Street
Machine (USS) by the back of the seat than to push a Speed
Machine (OSS) by the handlebar.

And I've never pushed a bike where it has been necessary to
hold the handlebar in order to steer. In fact I've always
found it easier to hold onto the seat and steer the bike by
leaning it.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗
Why I like OE6 - speedy5.freeserve.co.ukoe6.htmlOpen ↗
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

"Danny Colyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]... On my
commute I have to negotiate a hairpin curve on a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

grade separated crossing - on the MTB it was a no
brainer, on the 'bent with USS I have to be careful.

How long have you been riding?

Um, 4 weeks, never on a 'bent before?

E

Danny Colyer said:

Harry Spatz said:

here are some disadvantages for USS:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

3. It makes the bike wider so that it might be harder to
maneuver through narrow spaces. Also, will take up
more width on a roof rack on your car.

I forgot to mention this one. I imagine filtering would be
easier with OSS than with USS, though after commuting with
USS for 3 years I don't have much of a problem filtering
any more.

Quoted message said:

4. It is harder to walk the bike because you have to
lean way over to hold the handlebars to steer the
bike.

That depends very much on the bike and particularly the
height of the seat. IME it is easier to push a Street
Machine (USS) by the back of the seat than to push a Speed
Machine (OSS) by the handlebar.

I had a go on a StreetMachine the other week for an hour
or so...wow, what a nice bike that is, felt good as soon
as I tried it.

The only thing I had a bit of trouble with to begin with was
the USS, not the position [which I really liked] but the
seeming 'small' steering curve. I was getting into trouble
with the handlebars knocking against the seat and knew
immediately I would not feel comfortable with this
arrangement. There's always a trade-off with everything I
guess. But it got me thinking [something I've been runing
over for some time] as to why there are not alternatives to
the USS design - specifically in the style of 'lever
action', like a fork lift truck/crane kind of thing. I'm not
sure what handling would be like, but it would sure resolve
this turning curve problem that seems to crop up with USS
sometimes. In addition, you could also have the levers a
little closer to your body, if you so desired, making you
slightly more streamlined.

Does anybody know of a bike with this kind of steering, or a
home builder who uses it?

I'm in the process of attenmpting a homebuild [have been
for some time
- it keeps changing...can't seem to start the blasted
thing!], and I've just come up with a idea for this type
of steering, using some wheel axles brazed into a small
steel tube swivelling around a couple of wheel cones
seated in some old brass plumbing nuts!

If I ever actually do it, I'll report back :-)

cheers Garryb

Quoted message said:

And I've never pushed a bike where it has been necessary to
hold the handlebar in order to steer. In fact I've always
found it easier to hold onto the seat and steer the bike by
leaning it.

Quoted message said:

Does anybody know of a bike with this kind of steering, or
a home builder who uses it?

There are certainly great varieties in USS steering with
TRIKES, including back & forth (Penninger), side to side
(MR, Hotmover, Catrike) as well as the usual rotating
steerers (Greenspeed, Trice). There are also the in-between
joysticks (Windcheetah and Hellbent) that while are
technially OSS, have the relaxation of USS.

On USS bikes though, the main varieties are less varied,
exemplified by:

- HPVelotechnik (and Actionbent and others), with direct
steering with a bit of tiller with vertical bar end
style controls

- Vision with direct steering with a huge amount of
tiller with horizontally oriented controls along the
length of the bike.

- Haluzak, Longbikes, Linear, Reynolds with indirect
steering using rotation, with little or no tiller

I think tiller usually increases the problem you experienced
with HPVelo bike, so you might want to try a bike with
indirect steering.

The Linear in particular largely avoids the seat
interference problem by using a "Whatton bar", basically a
flat bar rather than "bull horns".

--
I do not accept unsolicted commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE
for legitimate replies.

paul said:

...anyone for the defence of OSS?

<groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
google.com&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-
8859-
1%26safe%3Doff%26c2coff%3D1%26q%3Dfast%2Bfreddy%2Boss%2Buss-
%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch%26meta%3Dgroup%253Dalt.rec.bicycl-
es.recumbent>.

Frobnitz said:

... Other than that, aero issues aside, I can't think of a
problem with USS.

I used to own an USS Reynolds Wishbone RT and by far the
most negative aspect of the USS was that it did not offer
any mounting location for decent mirror placement. OSS T-
bars (such as those found on many RANS bikes) are close to
ideal for mirror mounting.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

garryb59 said:

... But it got me thinking [something I've been runing
over for some time] as to why there are not alternatives
to the USS design - specifically in the style of 'lever
action', like a fork lift truck/crane kind of thing. I'm
not sure what handling would be like, but it would sure
resolve this turning curve problem that seems to crop up
with USS sometimes. In addition, you could also have the
levers a little closer to your body, if you so desired,
making you slightly more streamlined.

Does anybody know of a bike with this kind of steering, or
a home builder who uses it?...

The long out of production Thebis trike [1] has this type of
steering. The handling is odd, but certainly much of the
oddness is due to other factors.

[1] <http://home.mindspring.com/~kb7mxu/images/thebis.jpg>.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Victor Kan said:

... The Linear in particular largely avoids the seat
interference problem by using a "Whatton bar", basically a
flat bar rather than "bull horns".

Whatton bar steering is one of the most unnatural steering
systems ever devised, in my opinion.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Tom Sherman said:

Victor Kan said:

... The Linear in particular largely avoids the seat
interference problem by using a "Whatton bar", basically
a flat bar rather than "bull horns".

Whatton bar steering is one of the most unnatural steering
systems ever devised, in my opinion.

After doing a google search on whatton bars, it seems I
misused the term since it seems to cover USS steering in
general, regardless of the shape of the bar.

--
I do not accept unsolicted commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE
for legitimate replies.

paul said:

Ok, so I've been and had a play, and I want one. The bike
in question is the new machine from HPvelotecnic, the
grasshopper. It's the business 😄 Now I started this search
with firm views that recumbents should have USS, but the
demo bike had above seat steering. I still think the USS
looks better, but what are the pros and cons of each
steering type?

USS. Because it not only looks cooler, it IS cooler.
Probably cause it's wider and less aero than OSS but the
pose factor is worth it. :-) Besides, if you hate it, you
can always go OSS later. And USS is comfy.

Having successfully put together the Rolls Canardly (Optima
USS) from the box of bits that finally arrived from Blighty
I took it out for a gentle spin out to Lanarch Castle for
tea, cakes and Scottish-style lunacy. (About a 50 kilometre
round trip) It has been a lovely day today. A nice little
trundle along the coast road, much bird life in evidence,
the speed limit is an acceptable 40kmh with cars giving me
plenty of room when they do turn up which is not that often.
The sunshine dappling through the leaves on the trees, the
birds singing and the sea gently lapping against the shore.
Then a complete sod of a hill up to the castle for cakes,
tea and watching a party of Usanian grockles be given the
full "Hail the Haggis!" spiel. Most amusing and caused many
utterances of "Hamish!", "Dougal!" and "You'll have had your
tea?" from wife and I.

Homeward then, and through dramatic (read f*'in steep!)
rolling hills and a delightful 3k long descent. Cue
dambusters/ride of the valkyries impressions. :-)

Finally a stretch along the beach road to the calls of
"Cool bike!" from surfer-types, boy-racers(!) and
attractive young women.

This has bugger all to do with your OSS/USS question,
though.

I'd say go USS cause chicks dig it. :-)

--
Matt K Dunedin, NZ