Ullrich missed out

"Philo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

-Philo

yeah, if they had co-ordinated things together the 3 of them could've
destroyed discovery's chances for good. it is surprising the team director
didn't tell them to

Laz

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Philo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

-Philo

yeah, if they had co-ordinated things together the 3 of them could've
destroyed discovery's chances for good. it is surprising the team director
didn't tell them to

that could've been their best chance, right there.
telekom or t-mobile is not known as the best tactician.

juani said:

Quoted message said:

yeah, if they had co-ordinated things together the 3 of them could've
destroyed discovery's chances for good. it is surprising the team director
didn't tell them to

that could've been their best chance, right there.
telekom or t-mobile is not known as the best tactician.

man, you guys are stupid.

if armstrong wasn't struggling on that relatively short climb attacking
him is a waste of energy (vino's been wasting a lot of energy).

it's not like he let vino ride up the road and he wouldn't have allowed
ullrich to do the same. there's not a shred of anything that makes me
think armstrong would've folded at that time.

letting kloden go was a tactical compromise, he's seen as a low threat
and it forces vino and ullrich to not attack.

juani said:

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Philo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

-Philo

yeah, if they had co-ordinated things together the 3 of them could've
destroyed discovery's chances for good. it is surprising the team director
didn't tell them to

that could've been their best chance, right there.
telekom or t-mobile is not known as the best tactician.

Maybe Ullrich wasn't in any condition to attack.

And these attacks take more out of the guy attacking than the guys
just hanging on. With 3 of them attacking and having to hang on to
follow each other, that takes a lot of energy.

And what would Armstrong do if he didn't want to follow? Let the least
threat go. Now the other two are stuck back there with him.

He wasn't going to let Jan get away and seemed the consider Vino
enough of a threat to stay with him as well.

For your assertions to be correct, that they could have broken
Armstrong for good that day, Ullrich or Vino would have had to be in
much better shape than Armstrong.

Armstrong was more vulnurable than usual but it's not like any of
those guys was just going to ride away after repeated attacks if
Armstrong really didn't want them to. So he lets the least threat go,
virtually pinning Jan and Vino back.

D

Moreover, as Jalabert pointed out, Ullrich even helped Armstrong
get back up after the attack, but instead, he should have been on
Armstrong's wheel
and let him do that work. Apparently, Armstrong was playing "chicken"
with Ullrich who wasn't even aware of it.

-ilan

Philo a écrit :

Quoted message said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

-Philo

Quoted message said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

dumbass,

kloden's move was just shadow boxing, and he only got a handful of
seconds.

this stage wasn't hard enough to "destroy" lance or anyone else going
for GC. attacking comes with a risk, the risk that you will be caught
and shelled. there was very for ullrich little to gain by attacking at
that point considering the relative risk.

Quoted message said:

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

if he lacks anything it won't be "killer instinct", it will be fitness.

"Philo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

-Philo

It was a Cat 2 climb with a down hill into the finish. Do you really think
that Lance could not have followed any of them?

amit says...

Quoted message said:

kloden's move was just shadow boxing, and he only got a handful of
seconds.

39 to be exact.

I wouldn't mind having a few of those kind of handfuls myself.

Philo said:

In stage 8, Jan showed his lack of killer instinct. He did not
counter-attack Lance even after Vino's 2nd attack. Vino had to attack
twice in a row, and Jan still sat in the group. Kloden had to pick up
the slack and attack. Jan is such a talent and such a disappointment.
He should have attacked immediately after Vino's first attack was
caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Jan really does not have the killer instinct to win this race. He is
like the teammate who is willing to block for you, but not willing to
set up the attack or lead you out or anything.

-Philo

Uh, there was no way to destroy LANCE at this stage, as you are
certainly aware.

Exactly right. Why did Kloden gain only 30 seconds? Who was chasing
in the group behind? What I saw was Lance sitting on Jan as everyone
was going up the road. Someone pulled Lance along up the hill and down
into the finish. Any GC contendor should have been forcing Lance to
set pace, rather than act like Discovery temporary employees.

Lance was having a tough day. He was taking a lot of time to close
down Vino and even said himself afterwards that he was having a tough
day. That was the golden time to attack him and force him and him
alone to chase.

They had a chance to take minutes from Lance; instead they have a 2nd
place and a 30 seconds gain. Lance won't be so isolated again.

What was Jan's plan when Vino was attacking? "Stay with Lance". Good
plan, Jan.

Philo said:

destroy Lance.

In the freakin' Vosges hills ?

That would have been a tale for the ages.

Philo said:

What was Jan's plan when Vino was attacking? "Stay with Lance". Good
plan, Jan.

How about, "watch to see his reaction?" It's still early.

-e

Philo said:

caught. If he fails, then Kloden could go and maybe Vino, having had a
chance to catch his breath, might have bridged up to destroy Lance.

Dude,
You have the basic strategy right, but not the timing.
You can't "destroy" someone on a Cat 2 climb with a 15km descent to the
finish in the first week of racing.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:27:48 GMT, Eric Hill <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What was Jan's plan when Vino was attacking? "Stay with Lance". Good
plan, Jan.

How about, "watch to see his reaction?" It's still early.

"All Ullrich does," Riis said, "is just ride along. He focuses only on
himself and doesn't look around at what is happening. He doesn't look
at Armstrong to size him up. He doesn't pay attention to detail. He
thinks all he has to do is ride at his best. But that's not enough. He
completely lacks the desire and drive to attack."

http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8464.0.html

It seems it's clear for T-Mobile who's the leader of the team.
The remaining question is: is it clear for Jan?

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:27:48 GMT, Eric Hill <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What was Jan's plan when Vino was attacking? "Stay with Lance". Good
plan, Jan.

How about, "watch to see his reaction?" It's still early.

"All Ullrich does," Riis said, "is just ride along. He focuses only on
himself and doesn't look around at what is happening. He doesn't look
at Armstrong to size him up. He doesn't pay attention to detail. He
thinks all he has to do is ride at his best. But that's not enough. He
completely lacks the desire and drive to attack."

http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8464.0.html

In article z1yAe.226342$El.176385@pd7tw1no said:

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

that could've been their best chance, right there.
telekom or t-mobile is not known as the best tactician.

The funny thing of course is that the best tacticians, ds-es, qbs, head
coaches, generals and politicians are always right here, on the usenet.
What a (strangely) untapped resource this is.
--
Henning

juani said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:27:48 GMT, Eric Hill <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

>What was Jan's plan when Vino was attacking? "Stay with Lance". Good
>plan, Jan.

How about, "watch to see his reaction?" It's still early.

"All Ullrich does," Riis said, "is just ride along. He focuses only on
himself and doesn't look around at what is happening. He doesn't look
at Armstrong to size him up. He doesn't pay attention to detail. He
thinks all he has to do is ride at his best. But that's not enough. He
completely lacks the desire and drive to attack."

http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8464.0.html

It seems it's clear for T-Mobile who's the leader of the team.
The remaining question is: is it clear for Jan?

So sitting on Armstrong's wheel while Vino attacks doesn't qualify as
"sizing him up".

"Henning Tveit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <z1yAe.226342$El.176385@pd7tw1no>, juani <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Laz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

that could've been their best chance, right there.
telekom or t-mobile is not known as the best tactician.

The funny thing of course is that the best tacticians, ds-es, qbs,
head
coaches, generals and politicians are always right here, on the
usenet.
What a (strangely) untapped resource this is.
--

You forgot about the "sitting in their armchair" bit.

Phil H

Eric Hill a écrit :

Quoted message said:

So sitting on Armstrong's wheel while Vino attacks doesn't qualify as
"sizing him up".

No, because he didn't stay on his wheel, and instead towed Armstrong
back up.

-ilan