ullrich dna analyzed

bjorn said:

German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
(sportinformationsdienst).

I bet he wishes he'd have gone into football rather than
bike racing.

Bob Schwartz

On Apr 3, 9:34 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

bjorn said:

German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
(sportinformationsdienst).

I bet he wishes he'd have gone into football rather than
bike racing.

Bob Schwartz

Yeah, certainly interesting that other sports don't get the same
doping coverage. I guess there just isn't enough money involved in
cycling...Wouldn't it be good to see half of the Real Madrid team hang
out with the lawyers rather than on soccer fields?

bjorn

Quoted message said:

DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
the first place.

Are we going to start an OJ debate? 🙂

There's an issue of compounded evidence. There's the coincidence of the name. There's the coincidence of the written schedules coinciding with Ullrich's racing schedule. Then there's the result of the DNA test.

If there's a 0.01% of a false match, and you test 10k cyclists, the probability of getting N false matches is approximately 1/(N! * e), where N! is N factorial and e is 2.71828.... So for N=1, 37%.

This means if I get 1 match, there's a high probability that the cyclist is innocent. However, if I test only 1 cyclist and he's positive, the probability is much higher he's guilty, unless there's evidence to the contrary. Same test.

In this case there was already a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest it was Ullrich's blood. With the DNA match, people have been convicted of murder on a lot less.

Dan

Dan Connelly said:

Quoted message said:

DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
the first place.

Are we going to start an OJ debate? 🙂

There's an issue of compounded evidence. There's the coincidence of the
name. There's the coincidence of the written schedules coinciding with
Ullrich's racing schedule. Then there's the result of the DNA test.

If there's a 0.01% of a false match, and you test 10k cyclists, the
probability of getting N false matches is approximately 1/(N! * e),
where N! is N factorial and e is 2.71828.... So for N=1, 37%.

This means if I get 1 match, there's a high probability that the cyclist
is innocent. However, if I test only 1 cyclist and he's positive, the
probability is much higher he's guilty, unless there's evidence to the
contrary. Same test.

In this case there was already a lot of circumstantial evidence to
suggest it was Ullrich's blood. With the DNA match, people have been
convicted of murder on a lot less.

Dan

So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?

On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

WeaselPoopPower said:

So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?

I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.

Dumbass -

What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
case of the NFL and the NBA.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Dan Connelly said:

WeaselPoopPower said:

So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?

I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what
mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it. Mainstream
US sports are a farce, and I give them little attention.

Dan

Cycling is not addressing the cause they have chosen to tackle the result.
Time has shown a million times over in all walks of life this does not
work, let alone when the stakes are so high. For every fallen soldier
there are ten willing to take their place and until that changes nothing
has changed.
Cycling became inferior to all modern sport when DNA testing was floated
as the solution. Why not just raise the riders in cages? I mean all
they are is meat for profit right, and when the meat goes bad pitch it...

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.

Dumbass -

What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
case of the NFL and the NBA.

Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well for popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.

WeaselPoopPower said:

Dan Connelly said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
the first place.

Quoted message said:

Are we going to start an OJ debate? 🙂

Quoted message said:

There's an issue of compounded evidence. There's the coincidence of the
name. There's the coincidence of the written schedules coinciding with
Ullrich's racing schedule. Then there's the result of the DNA test.

Quoted message said:

If there's a 0.01% of a false match, and you test 10k cyclists, the
probability of getting N false matches is approximately 1/(N! * e),
where N! is N factorial and e is 2.71828.... So for N=1, 37%.

Quoted message said:

This means if I get 1 match, there's a high probability that the cyclist
is innocent. However, if I test only 1 cyclist and he's positive, the
probability is much higher he's guilty, unless there's evidence to the
contrary. Same test.

Quoted message said:

In this case there was already a lot of circumstantial evidence to
suggest it was Ullrich's blood. With the DNA match, people have been
convicted of murder on a lot less.

Quoted message said:

Dan

So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?

dumbass,

the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.

the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
is a criminal case and he could go to jail.

Quoted message said:

maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.

And they'll make a movie called the loneliness of the long distance
cyclist.

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:10:45 -0700, Dan Connelly

d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

No need to villify. Just suspend.

Yeah.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <[email hidden]> wrote:

the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.

Let them off the hook for what exactly?

Quoted message said:

the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
is a criminal case and he could go to jail.

Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
Spain?

Dan Connelly said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or

hide it.

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
case of the NFL and the NBA.

Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well for
popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.

Hardly any of us supports a different sort of standard. If they
did we'd see changes across the board in sport. As it is we are
awash in hypocracy, with the fans and their willful denial
providing crucial financial support.

Note that unlike chief I am neutral in my criticism. Fanatics
of sport like to see their heroes performing in outrageous
fashion, and don't really care how it is accomplished. Football
fans (US and Euro), baseball fans, basketball fans, cycling fans,
many others, all share that common desire.

Bob Schwartz

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.

Let them off the hook for what exactly?

Quoted message said:

the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
is a criminal case and he could go to jail.

Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
Spain?

Also have to wonder if Jan gave any testimony, or a deposition under
oath in the German investigation. If so perjury seems to work as well
as "tax fraud" for getting people they can't any other way.
He made lots of public statements, but I wonder if any were in a
legally binding situation.
He could've walked away from this as a hugely sympathetic figure,
especially in Germany if he'd admitted it up front. Cried about Lance,
the pressure of always being second, wanting one more huge win for the
Country before he retired, etc...
Especially if all there is was the recent stuff. Now he comes off
like Pete Rose.
More horrible career advice from his inner circle.
Bill C

On Apr 4, 12:37 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

Quoted message said:

What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
case of the NFL and the NBA.

Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well for popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.

Dumbass -

When people talk about those sports they mostly talk about the game,
what happens on the court or on the field.

In cycling people mostly talk about doping. So yes, they handle it
much better IMO.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

On Apr 4, 8:05 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Fanatics of sport like to see their heroes
performing in outrageous fashion, and
don't really care how it is accomplished.

I enjoyed seeing the photo of Cipo dressed in a devil outfit and
surrounded by hotties.

I actually am interested in how he accomplished it. First tip: don't
surround oneself with dumbasses. They are a hottie shield.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.

Let them off the hook for what exactly?

dumbass,

there is evidence of dopng taking place, photos of riders entering the
facility. the WADA code isn't equipped to handle a case like this, but
this same evidence would result in sanctions under the revisions to
the WADA code.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
is a criminal case and he could go to jail.

Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
Spain?

as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
he did dope that constitutes a fraud.

i would like to say i know more, but i don't. unfortunatley sites like
pezcyclingnews are too busy having espressos with protour honchos and
reviewing carbon cable housing to report the details of the ullrich
case for their readers.

but hey! check out that team car round up ! that is one sweet audi.

On Apr 4, 12:37 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.

Quoted message said:

What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
case of the NFL and the NBA.

Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well
for popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.

Most of whom? Most nerds on RBR, maybe. But since it
does well for popularity of those sports, it appears
that most of their fans aren't really bothered.

I'm somewhat bothered by the overwhelming likelihood that
steroid abuse is rampant in the NFL, but I'm actually more
bothered by the articles I've read recently which suggest
that a significant number of ex-NFL players suffer
diminished capacity and early-onset dementia due to repeated
concussions or impacts to the head. And that doesn't have
anything to do with steroids, other than that it may be
worse in 20 years because players are bigger and faster now.

OTOH, I also read recently that cheerleading is the athletic
pursuit (I'm not going to call it a sport) with the highest
injury rate for women. Cycling, blood bags and orange juice
or not, seems relatively safe by comparison.

Jan is going to get screwed by Puerto because he was a
high enough profile target that some German busybody third
party (not his team) felt compelled to lodge a fraud charge
and the state prosecutor also felt enthusiastic enough
to pursue it. As usual, the doctors, the team managers,
and everybody who benefited from Jan's popularity while
he was racing will skate free.

Ben

On Apr 4, 1:44 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.

Quoted message said:

Let them off the hook for what exactly?

dumbass,

there is evidence of dopng taking place, photos of riders entering the
facility. the WADA code isn't equipped to handle a case like this, but
this same evidence would result in sanctions under the revisions to
the WADA code.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
is a criminal case and he could go to jail.

Quoted message said:

Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
Spain?

as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
he did dope that constitutes a fraud.

There were/are three legal proceedings going on:

One from Werner Franke, who claimed, after seeing the spanish
documents, that Ullrich paid 35.000 Euro a year to Fuentes. That claim
didn't hold up in court. I am actually confused about that. Initially
I thought he had read the actual number in the docs, but looks like he
just deducted it from the market price on the various substances
mentioned?

Secondly, Bannenberg, professor for criminology, filed a lawsuit, I
believe already July 7, against Ullrich and Sevilla. This is still
going on. The charges were for fraud against T-Mobile and violation of
the German Medicine Act. Apparently, some think that the way
paragrapgh 263 of the German Criminal Act is worded, it can't be used
in that case (and I don't know if that is what Bannenberg will do).
More interestingly, Ullrich actually had a contract with Olaf Ludwig
Cycling (OLC), not with TMO (OLC had a contract with TMO, however). No
wonder that takes so long. Need to figure out first who is the
responsible...

T-Mobile (or should that be OLC?) itself never sued - they settled
with Ullrich.

And thirdly the Swiss Federation is also still investigating
violations against their sports code...

bjorn

Quoted message said:

i would like to say i know more, but i don't. unfortunatley sites like
pezcyclingnews are too busy having espressos with protour honchos and
reviewing carbon cable housing to report the details of the ullrich
case for their readers.

but hey! check out that team car round up ! that is one sweet audi.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Dan Connelly d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

WeaselPoopPower said:

So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?

I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it. Mainstream US sports are a farce, and I give them little attention.

Looked at another way they are businesses, are run in a
businesslike way, and protect their investment by
repelling all boarding parties from competitors flying
under the flag of `clean' sports. From the spectators'
point of view, it is a reasonable business model. And
what exactly is the difference between NBA an FIFA?
Fights on the playing field? Fights in the stands?
Criminal charges against players? Doping? Well they are
clean. No players in the NBA or FIFA take dope.
--
Michael Press