UK: Decline in MMR VAX started YEARS before Wakefield Published

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

REDFLAGSDAILY.COM - RAISING ISSUES, FACING CHALLENGES,
EXPLORING IDEAS

.... r i g h t ...

Then there are reports like this:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200312220095.html

Please explain why anyone would trust "redfloutweakly". They seem to do
lots of arm waving with very little and poorly interpretted data. Why is a
retired pediatrician more trustworthy than a retired psychiatrist?

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<tMRFb.628789$Tr4.1631641@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

REDFLAGSDAILY.COM - RAISING ISSUES, FACING CHALLENGES,
EXPLORING IDEAS

... r i g h t ...

Then there are reports like this:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200312220095.html

Please explain why anyone would trust "redfloutweakly". They seem to do
lots of arm waving with very little and poorly interpretted data. Why is a
retired pediatrician more trustworthy than a retired psychiatrist?

What has African measles incidence to do with us and who trusts any
figures from there anyway. Also deaths is the acid test not incidence

"According to government, measles was a threat to national interest,
claiming more than 40,000 lives every year (a statistic which is
laughable since most people who get measles stay at home and treat it
and the majority of sick people go to private clinics that do not keep
records this figure was of course trumped up). This of course is a
questionable statistic since the majority of deaths in Uganda are not
registered and few parents remember any measles death. No point in
registering a person once he has died. Forty thousand people are far
much less than those killed in Uganda annually due to the civil war,
dwarfs the figure for malaria, which kills a child every five second
and for which governments is happy to ignore.......The forcing of them
to take a vaccine against a disease they know to be harmless and which
they know how to cure in its harmful state was seen as government hell
bent on killing its own population for the benefit of commanding
whiteworld. All village people know that once you have recovered from
measles you will never catch it again, but here they were telling
people to vaccinate even those who have recovered from measles.
"--Kihura Nkuba 2003

"It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through
Africa, South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving
children...They thought they were wiping out measles, but most of
those susceptible to measles died from some other disease that they
developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced
their immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia,
gastro-enteritis, etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and
they died from malnutrition. So there were very few susceptible
infants left alive to get measles. It's one way to get good
statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they
literally did." --Dr Kalokerinos, M.D.

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<tMRFb.628789$Tr4.1631641@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

REDFLAGSDAILY.COM - RAISING ISSUES, FACING CHALLENGES,
EXPLORING IDEAS

... r i g h t ...

Then there are reports like this:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200312220095.html

Please explain why anyone would trust "redfloutweakly". They seem to do
lots of arm waving with very little and poorly interpretted data. Why

is a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

retired pediatrician more trustworthy than a retired psychiatrist?

What has African measles incidence to do with us and who trusts any
figures from there anyway. Also deaths is the acid test not incidence

.... snip worthless quote...

Excuse me? You seem to be claiming that African children are a different
species than UK children. Well, that is an interesting notion. Is it
because they are mostly not white (many African children are descendents fo
the British, Dutch, German, Portuguese and other Europeans) or just because
most of Africa is south of the Equator.

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<u40Gb.183859

Quoted message said:

Excuse me? You seem to be claiming that African children are a different
species than UK children. Well, that is an interesting notion. Is it
because they are mostly not white (many African children are descendents fo
the British, Dutch, German, Portuguese and other Europeans) or just because
most of Africa is south of the Equator.

"seem"? they are mostly malnourised with dirty water, sanitation
http://www.whale.to/a/bangladesh.html etc, so shouldn't be receiving
vaccines. In fact they are like we used to be in the 19 century early
20th re poverty which is the main reason disease deaths like measles,
smallpox etc declined--due to the decline in poverty. Measles
declined by 99.4% before measles vax in 1968, so out poverty levels
were still high then, and some large figure of folks now here and US
is in poverty. That is [censored] food mostly, sugar, aspartame etc, dire
jobs.

Yes, I know Sceibner has a degree in paleo whatsit, I met her years
ago, read all her books and post her articles
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/scheibner.html

You pharmaboys can't see clearly. You think you need a medical
education to understand vaccination. That is a well set propaganda
belief--guess who made that? Just ad hominem. Any idiot who can spot
lies and read can see it for what it is. And homeopaths, naturopaths
have a doctor education, which is medicine, that works better

which is why I don't waste time any more arguing with pharma
believers, bit like arguing with Catholics about spirituality.

[email hidden] (john) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

<lots of blather from anti-establishment types>

COMMENT:

Only John would post two quotes to bolster his case, and fail to
notice that they essentially make completely opposite and opposing
arguments. Here is one Kihura Nkuba, a clueless Ugandan quoted by
John:

Nkuba:
"According to government, measles was a threat to national interest,
claiming more than 40,000 lives every year (a statistic which is
laughable since most people who get measles stay at home and treat it
and the majority of sick people go to private clinics that do not keep
records this figure was of course trumped up). This of course is a
questionable statistic since the majority of deaths in Uganda are not
registered and few parents remember any measles death. No point in
registering a person once he has died. Forty thousand people are far
much less than those killed in Uganda annually due to the civil war,
dwarfs the figure for malaria, which kills a child every five second
and for which governments is happy to ignore.......The forcing of them
to take a vaccine against a disease they know to be harmless and which
they know how to cure in its harmful state was seen as government hell
bent on killing its own population for the benefit of commanding
whiteworld. All village people know that once you have recovered from
measles you will never catch it again, but here they were telling
people to vaccinate even those who have recovered from measles.
"--Kihura Nkuba 2003

COMMENT:
Notice that this Nkuba guy is claiming that natural measles is a
disease which Africans in Uganda "know to be harmless", and the 40,000
deaths a year statistically attributed to it, are "trumped up" because
few parents "remember any measles deaths."

Right. Got that? Now, right after this, John posts a quote by Dr. A.
Kalokerinos explaining how measles *vaccine* deaths in Africa don't
look like measles virus deaths. Why? Well, see, here's the secret that
Nkuba missed: it's because the vaccine measles virus pushes sick and
starving children over the edge of health, so they die of something
else that *isn't reported to be measles*:

Dr. Kalokerinos:
"It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through
Africa, South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving
children...They thought they were wiping out measles, but most of
those susceptible to measles died from some other disease that they
developed as a result of being vaccinated. Kalokerinos, The
vaccination reduced
their immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia,
gastro-enteritis, etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and
they died from malnutrition. So there were very few susceptible
infants left alive to get measles. It's one way to get good
statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they
literally did." --Dr Kalokerinos, M.D.

COMMENT:

My favorite part of this one is the part where Dr. Kalokerinos says
that in these sick African children "The vaccination reduced their
immune levels and acted like an infection." Well, there's no doubt
that measles vaccination is an infection, since measles vaccine virus
is an attenuated but live virus. Hellow? What horrible infection does
the good doctor Kalokerinos think the vaccine virus is "acting like",
we medical people wonder? Would it, possibly, be (gasp) natural
measles infection? That *same* natural measles infection which the
aformentioned Ugandan Nkuba tells us is *harmless* in these sick and
starving Africans, anyway--- as every African knows? But Dr.
Kalokerinos, we suppose, doesn't? Kalokerinos states without evidence
that "many" of these vaccinated kids, as a result of lower immunity
from infection by the live vaccine virus, got "septicaemia,
gastro-enteritis, etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and
they died from malnutrition." Please remember, that according to Dr.
Kalokerinos, these are the same African kids who die on a continent
where Mr. Nkuba says measles death statistics must be "trumped up"
because statistics are untrustworthy, and "few parents remember any
measles death." Hmmm.

In short, if Mr. Nkuba's argument is valid that few measles death
*reports* in Africa actually should be trusted to mean few actual
measles *deaths* in Africa, then all of Dr. Kalokerinos' claims about
measles *vaccine* deaths in malnourished children, are subject to at
least an equal claim of being "trumped up" by Dr. Kalokerinos, in the
same way. Where are the reports that support Kalokerinos? No doubt,
Kalokerinos is telling us white man's fibs, similar to those we hear
about natural measles. Nkuba should talk to the doctor and give him
some good ethnic sensitivity training.

And conversely, if Dr. Kalokerinos' claims (for which he gives no
statistics) are actually valid about measles vaccine virus deaths
going unnoticed, as other causes of death in sick and malnourished
African children, then the same argument cannot fail to go in spades
in regards to deaths in Africa due to the natural measles disease,
also. In that case, it is Mr. Nkuba who is being naïve about measles
infection deaths in Africa. Not only that, but in that case, also Dr.
Kalokerinos must be a complete fool not to to realise that if the
attenuated virus in the vaccine really is knocking off malnourished
African children like flies, as he claims, that epidemics of the real
full strength virus (which is what these children are subject to if
NOT vaccinated) would not be far worse in this regard. And for just
the same reasons. Why are we supposed to believe one thing and not the
other?

And if both of these men are a few bricks shy of a load, then John the
local Dunce is a complete moron to post both of their arguments, and
fail to notice that not only do they disagree with each other's views
completely, but that in particular Kalokerinos' implied argument about
Africa (killer vaccine virus, pussycat natural virus) isn't very
consistant with itself, and thus isn't even good fantasy.

SBH

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<u40Gb.183859

Quoted message said:

Excuse me? You seem to be claiming that African children are a

different

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

species than UK children. Well, that is an interesting notion. Is it
because they are mostly not white (many African children are

descendents fo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the British, Dutch, German, Portuguese and other Europeans) or just

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

most of Africa is south of the Equator.

"seem"? they are mostly malnourised with dirty water, sanitation
http://www.whale.to/a/bangladesh.html etc, so shouldn't be receiving
vaccines. In fact they are like we used to be in the 19 century early
20th re poverty which is the main reason disease deaths like measles,
smallpox etc declined--due to the decline in poverty. Measles
declined by 99.4% before measles vax in 1968, so out poverty levels
were still high then, and some large figure of folks now here and US
is in poverty. That is [censored] food mostly, sugar, aspartame etc, dire
jobs.

What is interesting in comparison... is that cases of measles in the UK are
RISING with the decrease of vaccination:
http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/News/story.asp?datetime=18+Dec+2003+14%3A26&tbrand=ENOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=ENOnline&itemid=NOED18+Dec+2003+14%3A27%3A07%3A830

http://tinyurl.com/2prph

And yet this article pointed out that with increased vaccination the level
of measles was decreasing:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200312220095.html

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know Sceibner has a degree in paleo whatsit, I met her years
ago, read all her books and post her articles
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/scheibner.html

So what... she does not write about what she knows --- fossilized animal
parts -- rocks that used to be living things. Perhaps that is why she
confused and is supporting Yurko. Not realizing that you cannot shake a
baby like you can shake a can of rocks.

She does not do medical research. She is usually very coy and cautious
about admitting what her REAL training (and agenda) is. All she does is
spout off on the dangers of vaccination, with these kinds of results:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/10/1070732280162.html

Quoted message said:

You pharmaboys can't see clearly. You think you need a medical
education to understand vaccination.

Actually, I do not have a medical education. I have a degree in
engineering... and an ability to see past the BS.

That is a well set propaganda

Quoted message said:

belief--guess who made that? Just ad hominem. Any idiot who can spot
lies and read can see it for what it is. And homeopaths, naturopaths
have a doctor education, which is medicine, that works better

which is why I don't waste time any more arguing with pharma
believers, bit like arguing with Catholics about spirituality.

pot, kettle, black

If you want real ad hominem... this is a much better whale site:
http://www.perp.com/whale/index.html

HCN said:

So what... she does not write about what she knows --- fossilized animal
parts -- rocks that used to be living things. Perhaps that is why she
confused and is supporting Yurko. Not realizing that you cannot shake a
baby like you can shake a can of rocks.

Bronwyn Hancock, another Australian anti-vaccination liar and someone
who describes herself as a good friend of Scheibner's and who also
claims to have assisted Scheibner with research, has told me
personally that it is impossible to harm a baby by shaking it. She
even claims that there is scientific evidence of this. She has
challenged me to produce evidence that any amount of shaking can cause
harm.

She is mad, of course. As they all are.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

[email hidden] (Steve Harris [email hidden])

Quoted message said:

And if both of these men are a few bricks shy of a load, then John the
local Dunce is a complete moron to post both of their arguments, and
fail to notice that not only do they disagree with each other's views
completely, but that in particular Kalokerinos' implied argument about
Africa (killer vaccine virus, pussycat natural virus) isn't very
consistant with itself, and thus isn't even good fantasy.

I sat in the audience one night and saw Archie Kalokerinos repeat his
insane conspiracy theory that vaccination is a deliberate policy of
the WHO and the Save The Children Fund to commit genocide. He actually
said that "these organisations put [censored] and Stalin in the shade"
when it came to mass killing and genocide.

I have never been so close to madness without some sort of screen
between me and the maniac. What made it even more scary was how sane
he looked as he spoke. What doubled the scariness was that the
audience applauded.

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/inferno.htm

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

[email hidden] (Steve Harris [email hidden]) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (john) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

<lots of blather from anti-establishment types>

<snip> lots of blather from establishment type

Nkuba says measles figures are trumped up to sell the measles vaccine
which kills kids. Kalokerinos says the measles vaccine kills children

both agree on that.

I think the gist of your speil (yawn) was the measles vaccine would
produce measles infection which would then produce measles stats to
your likingzzzzzzzZZZzzzz

In article <[email hidden]>,

john said:

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<u40Gb.183859

Quoted message said:

Excuse me? You seem to be claiming that African children are a different
species than UK children. Well, that is an interesting notion. Is it
because they are mostly not white (many African children are descendents fo
the British, Dutch, German, Portuguese and other Europeans) or just because
most of Africa is south of the Equator.

"seem"? they are mostly malnourised with dirty water, sanitation
http://www.whale.to/a/bangladesh.html etc, so shouldn't be receiving
vaccines. In fact they are like we used to be in the 19 century early
20th re poverty which is the main reason disease deaths like measles,
smallpox etc declined--due to the decline in poverty. Measles
declined by 99.4% before measles vax in 1968,

I see John is now so dimwitted that he's even getting confused about
his own silly claims. He used to be at least half-witted enough to
remember that it was measles *deaths* that had declined. Now he's
claiming that *measles* had declined, which is so blatantly false that
you'd think even he'd notice.

Quoted message said:

so out poverty levels
were still high then, and some large figure of folks now here and US
is in poverty. That is [censored] food mostly, sugar, aspartame etc, dire
jobs.

Har har. It's true that poverty and malnutrition are still major
factors in causing measles deaths, but vaccination prevents measles
even in malnourished populations, despite the claims of John's hero
Kalokerinos.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know Sceibner has a degree in paleo whatsit, I met her years
ago, read all her books and post her articles
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/scheibner.html

Or spend your time in some more worthy pursuit, such as hitting your
toes with a hammer. Just as painful, but much quicker.

Quoted message said:

You pharmaboys can't see clearly. You think you need a medical
education to understand vaccination. That is a well set propaganda
belief--guess who made that? Just ad hominem. Any idiot who can spot
lies and read can see it for what it is.

I guess John is the wrong kind of idiot. Too bad.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

HCN said:

So what... she does not write about what she knows --- fossilized animal
parts -- rocks that used to be living things. Perhaps that is why she
confused and is supporting Yurko. Not realizing that you cannot shake a
baby like you can shake a can of rocks.

Bronwyn Hancock, another Australian anti-vaccination liar and someone
who describes herself as a good friend of Scheibner's and who also
claims to have assisted Scheibner with research, has told me
personally that it is impossible to harm a baby by shaking it. She
even claims that there is scientific evidence of this. She has
challenged me to produce evidence that any amount of shaking can cause
harm.

She is mad, of course. As they all are.

....

Ah, yes... I looked her up. She claims that Scheibner has read 100000 pages
of medical liturature.... though I wonder if she understood them. Then I
have heard that Scheibner has been a witness in many court trials... I hope
they were all as successfull as this one:
http://www.humanrights.gov.au/disability_rights/decisions/comdec/1996/DD000080.htm

It makes me wonder if the lies they tell and their support of a child
murderer is because they are actually knowingly evil... or if parts of their
brains have calcified (rocks in their heads?).

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Steve Harris [email hidden]) wrote in

message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (john) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<lots of blather from anti-establishment types>

<snip> lots of blather from establishment type

Nkuba says measles figures are trumped up to sell the measles vaccine
which kills kids. Kalokerinos says the measles vaccine kills children

....

Nkuba also claims lots of things that a just not true (like polio not being
Uganda until the recent vaccination program... even though polio has been
historically one of the main reasons for the high levels of disability in
Uganda). He is not a reliable source of information.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Decline in MMR VAX started YEARS before Wakefield Published
From: "HCN" [email hidden]
Date: 12/28/2003 2:00 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <aDGHb.680672$Tr4.1701566@attbi_s03>

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Steve Harris [email hidden]) wrote in

message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (john) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<lots of blather from anti-establishment types>

<snip> lots of blather from establishment type

Nkuba says measles figures are trumped up to sell the measles vaccine
which kills kids. Kalokerinos says the measles vaccine kills children

...

Nkuba also claims lots of things that a just not true (like polio not being
Uganda until the recent vaccination program... even though polio has been
historically one of the main reasons for the high levels of disability in
Uganda). He is not a reliable source of information.

Translation:

He is *outside* of organized medicine.

In said:

"seem"?  they are mostly malnourised with dirty water, sanitation
http://www.whale.to/a/bangladesh.html etc, so shouldn't be receiving
vaccines.  In fact they are like we used to be in the 19 century early
20th re poverty which is the main reason disease deaths like measles,
smallpox etc declined--due to the decline in poverty.  Measles
declined by 99.4% before measles vax in 1968, so out poverty levels
were still high then, and some large figure of folks now here and US
is in poverty.  That is [censored] food mostly, sugar, aspartame etc, dire
jobs.

I wasn't aware that South America had a lower poverty rate
than England and the USA did in the first half of the 20th
century. The death rate from measles and polio in South
America is now zero; the measles rate in the UK is quite
a bit higher and rising.

--
begin signature.exe
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

In said:

Quoted message said:

From: "HCN" [email hidden]
Date: 12/28/2003 2:00 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <aDGHb.680672$Tr4.1701566@attbi_s03>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nkuba also claims lots of things that a just not true (like polio not being
Uganda until the recent vaccination program... even though polio has been
historically one of the main reasons for the high levels of disability in
Uganda). He is not a reliable source of information.

Translation:

He is *outside* of organized medicine.

Note Jan's response when someone is actually
caught in a lie: she defends it because it's
"*outside* of organized medicine."

--
begin signature.exe
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?