Uberwald in pictures

David Martin said:

Here are the pictures of Igor, as of this morning.

http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/igor.html

I now have to find some suitable paint and put all the bits on.

Spot the obvious things in the picture that have to be changed before it is
ready for the road.. (not bit's that are missing, bits that are wrong..)

..d

I'd take care over the head tube. It takes a lot more load than on a
single and it sounds from the forks like it may have had an impact. You
don't want to be going down the road at speed to find you have a two
person version of the old unicycle and handlebars trick. I'd be tempted
to add some gussetting around the headtube to top tube and downtube joints.

Tony

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 14:26:58 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'd be tempted
to add some gussetting around the headtube to top tube and downtube joints.

I'd be tempted to not go anywhere near the thing. I don't mean to
knock your spirit of enterprise but it scares me just to look at it.

On 6/11/04 2:45 pm, in article [email hidden],

Not Responding said:

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 14:26:58 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'd be tempted
to add some gussetting around the headtube to top tube and downtube joints.

I'd be tempted to not go anywhere near the thing. I don't mean to
knock your spirit of enterprise but it scares me just to look at it.

That's OK, It'll look a lot better when it is painted, honest. I come from
an engineering family where we do things like this.

The consulting engineer on the project (my dad) is a very well respected
member of the joining fraternity, and fellow of more societies than one
could shake an average sized stick at. He seemed quite happy that it would
be used.

I appreciate the tones of caution. There are several things to bear in mind:

1. I used very cheap frames. These have a poor quality steel that has the
property of being fairly ductile. That means that instead of cracking, it
will tend to bend. This is not such a bad thing if you are regularly looking
for flaws.

2. The overall load is not going to be 2 adults and it will be used on-road
in a reasonable manner. It is not going to be jumped, raced or similar.

3. As with all such projects, test pieces were joined first, then cut up to
determine how well they had joined. We are quite happy that the system will
hod together as well as the original frames.

I will be monitoring the head tube and all the brazes. My suspicion is that
one of the bottom brazes would go first, followed in fairly short order by
the top braze. If it looks/feels dodgy then I won't be riding it any
further.

Full assembly and road test to follow.

...d

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

That's OK, It'll look a lot better when it is painted, honest. I come from
an engineering family where we do things like this.

<gryn>

I like it! I also like your spirit and enterprise in building something
like this in a world where everyone else just wants to buy something off
the shelf and then sue like a maniac if anything goes wrong. It takes
both courage and skill to take to the road on a machine of your own
creation, yet that's exactly what the early bicycle engineers did.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing pictures of it in service.

--
- Pyromancer Stormshadow.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.

David Martin said:

I will be monitoring the head tube and all the brazes. My suspicion is that
one of the bottom brazes would go first, followed in fairly short order by
the top braze. If it looks/feels dodgy then I won't be riding it any

Mitring is very important (even if using lugs) The braze is just
supposed to hold the tubes together, not bridge any kind of gap.

Good luck with it anyway.

in message <[email hidden]>, Pyromancer

(') said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

That's OK, It'll look a lot better when it is painted, honest. I come
from an engineering family where we do things like this.

<gryn>

I like it! I also like your spirit and enterprise in building
something like this in a world where everyone else just wants to buy
something off
the shelf and then sue like a maniac if anything goes wrong.

Hear hear! I received my copy of Atomic Zombie's book yesterday, and
have been leafing through it at odd moments all day.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; This email may contain confidential or otherwise privileged
;; information, though, quite frankly, if you're not the intended
;; recipient and you've got nothing better to do than read other
;; folks' emails then I'm glad to have brightened up your sad little
;; life a tiny bit.

On 6/11/04 10:05 pm, in article
[email hidden], "Simon Brooke"

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pyromancer

(') said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

That's OK, It'll look a lot better when it is painted, honest. I come
from an engineering family where we do things like this.

<gryn>

I like it! I also like your spirit and enterprise in building
something like this in a world where everyone else just wants to buy
something off
the shelf and then sue like a maniac if anything goes wrong.

Hear hear! I received my copy of Atomic Zombie's book yesterday, and
have been leafing through it at odd moments all day.

The attitude in my family has always been a 'can do' one. The more I meet
people, the more I realise what a rare thing that is.

If it is broken, see how it can be fixed. The difference between knowledge
and wisdom becomes quite distinct there. Knowing what needs to be done is
one thing. Having the wisdom to know when someone else should do it is
another.

Anyway, I slapped some primer on tonight and it does look a lot better.
Green paint tomorrow (hammerite mid green, as selected by Rachel) which will
cover up all the new work and maybe a lot of the old paint as well. Then I
get the brake and gear cables mid-week, and should hopefully have it on the
road next weekend.

I agree entirely about the 'off the shelf' culture. One of the prized skills
in the Uni mountaineering club I was part of was to be regarded as a
fettler. Part of the key halmarks of a fettler was the ability to modify kit
to meet a purpose, ie an extra ice axe loop here, or a widget thingy there.
My flatmate and I bought a stack of material and made a couple of pertex
windshirts that were the envy of the club. This was about a year before such
things appeared on the market. Having a windproof top that could be screwed
up into a smaller space than a coke can was almost unheard of in the early
90's. A friend made his own fleece trousers by purchasing a couple of bags
of scraps from Daleswear (pound a bag) and pinning them together using his
existing tracksters as a pattern. The pieces were then stitched together as
they sat and he ended up with a pair of fleece trousers that are, shall we
say, unique.

There is always a risk when doing such things, the risk of failure. It is
very disappointing to invest time and money in doing something to discover
that it doesn't work. If Igor folds in half on the test ride I will not be
particularly pleased. However there are intangibles that I have gained from
the experience, and the cost of the gas and other bits has been more than
saved in gaining the ability to mend the broken hinge on the fridge and save
having to buy new.

I would hope that my children will be able to think outside the norm and be
inventive. Get on a bike and ride, it gives freedom and self sufficiency.
Sometimes it is a struggle, sometimes miserable, but you learn to be
dependent on yourself, and to be able to improvise.

I'll keep you posted on the test ride..

...d

On 6/11/04 8:43 pm, in article [email hidden],

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

That's OK, It'll look a lot better when it is painted, honest. I come from
an engineering family where we do things like this.

<gryn>

I like it! I also like your spirit and enterprise in building something
like this in a world where everyone else just wants to buy something off
the shelf and then sue like a maniac if anything goes wrong. It takes
both courage and skill to take to the road on a machine of your own
creation, yet that's exactly what the early bicycle engineers did.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing pictures of it in service.

I should point out that I was thinking of buying a tandem. It was only
thinking as spare money is currently allocated towards higher priority
projects but it would be really useful for ferrying kids about, and a good
thing to do.

So far it has cost me about 65 quid in bicycle parts (they needed new bottom
brackets, new cables, and a new set of V-brakes. I didn't have those kicking
about and the old ones were a PITA and shot) and 25 quid in welding
consumables (flux and gas. Welding wire and equipment was donated) I still
have a lot of gas (oxy propane) left which will last me a long time and it
has paid for itself already.

I'll probably have to get some new tyres and maybe some new bar grips. All
in all it will be under 100 quid for the tandem (including the cost of the
kiddy cranks from ebay) and hopefully well worth it.

Total build time is currently about 7-8 hours. I'd anticipate another couple
of hours to get it finished.

...d

On 6/11/04 8:43 pm, in article [email hidden],

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

That's OK, It'll look a lot better when it is painted, honest. I come from
an engineering family where we do things like this.

<gryn>

I like it! I also like your spirit and enterprise in building something
like this in a world where everyone else just wants to buy something off
the shelf and then sue like a maniac if anything goes wrong. It takes
both courage and skill to take to the road on a machine of your own
creation, yet that's exactly what the early bicycle engineers did.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing pictures of it in service.

I should point out that I was thinking of buying a tandem. It was only
thinking as spare money is currently allocated towards higher priority
projects but it would be really useful for ferrying kids about, and a good
thing to do.

So far it has cost me about 65 quid in bicycle parts (they needed new bottom
brackets, new cables, and a new set of V-brakes. I didn't have those kicking
about and the old ones were a PITA and shot) and 25 quid in welding
consumables (flux and gas. Welding wire and equipment was donated) I still
have a lot of gas (oxy propane) left which will last me a long time and it
has paid for itself already.

I'll probably have to get some new tyres and maybe some new bar grips. All
in all it will be under 100 quid for the tandem (including the cost of the
kiddy cranks from ebay) and hopefully well worth it.

Total build time is currently about 7-8 hours. I'd anticipate another couple
of hours to get it finished.

...d

Zog The Undeniable said:

David Martin said:

I will be monitoring the head tube and all the brazes. My suspicion is that
one of the bottom brazes would go first, followed in fairly short order by
the top braze. If it looks/feels dodgy then I won't be riding it any

Mitring is very important (even if using lugs) The braze is just
supposed to hold the tubes together, not bridge any kind of gap.

It depends on the precise sort of braze. The reason why it won't bridge gaps
is usually because the surface tension is so low when it is molten that it
cannot stay in the gaps. Different blends have different properties

Obviously the braze metal is not really suitable for load bearing. This
militates against filled gaps being particularly strong. I will be keeping a
good eye on these joints and only subjecting them to minimal stressing.

If it all works out swimmingly then I expect to be replacing it with a
properly designed and built tandem in a year or so. This is really a proof
of concept.

...d

David Martin said:

Here are the pictures of Igor, as of this morning.

http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/igor.html

Excellent! You're a cleverer man than I (most people are).

A song just popped into my head:

"Goody ... goody goody yum yum"

--
If, as Einstein said, space is curved and occupies ten
dimensions including time; How can you be certain which
is the underneath of a ladder? And how can you be certain
you haven't already walked under one next week?
Extract teeth to reply

Quoted message said:

From: David Martin [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

There is always a risk when doing such things, the risk of failure. It is
very disappointing to invest time and money in doing something to discover
that it doesn't work. If Igor folds in half on the test ride I will not be
particularly pleased. However there are intangibles that I have gained from
the experience, and the cost of the gas and other bits has been more than
saved in gaining the ability to mend the broken hinge on the fridge and save
having to buy new.

Bravo, Failing is the way to learning how to get it right. Being able to
cobble together what you need and make it work is a dying skill. I think it's
great that you're building a bike. I hope it holds up better than my '67 BSA
Lightning hardtail chopper where my welded on hardtail broke off. I learned a
bit from that, but I was a teenager when I built that one.
Good Luck
Bill C

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Hear hear! I received my copy of Atomic Zombie's book yesterday, and
have been leafing through it at odd moments all day.

Having ridden the Spin cycle it is on my list of projects (Probably
through the Bike Station though!).

The plan to build a Marauder-esque low-racer has been sidelined in
favour of a racing trike, but may well re-appear depending on success.
While I don't agree with everything he does (He spent a lot of money on
a hydraulic disc brake for the marauder but put it on the rear wheel!),
his sheer determination to build and ride odd bikes is an inspiration.

At least if you've built the bike yourself, you've a) only got yourself
to blame. b) Got some idea of the quality of the construction.

I can look at a weld and comment on how good it looks. But it is a leap
of faith (Albeit well supported) for me to jump on the Giant and ride it
assuming that it'll all hold together. The difference is between having
faith in your abilities and having faith in the abilities of someone
nameless, underpaid soul in a sweatshop in the far east! The principle
thing that I learnt from building the recumbent is that there is no
"magic" in bikes. I wouldn't pretend to be a master (Or even a bad
apprentice), but I have covered some serious distances on my recumbent
and clocked some impressive speeds (Some while the frame was known to be
cracking).

Er... I appear to be rambling now. Beer and sense doth not mix.

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk ('') said:

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Hear hear! I received my copy of Atomic Zombie's book yesterday, and
have been leafing through it at odd moments all day.

Having ridden the Spin cycle it is on my list of projects (Probably
through the Bike Station though!).

The plan to build a Marauder-esque low-racer has been sidelined in
favour of a racing trike, but may well re-appear depending on success.
While I don't agree with everything he does (He spent a lot of money
on a hydraulic disc brake for the marauder but put it on the rear
wheel!),

I know. That jumped out at me, too. Judging from his other projects I
think he lives somewhere very flat indeed, so hills may not be an
issue. His other lowrider design - the front wheel drive one - also has
only a rear brake, and that's a caliper!

It's a marauder-style thing I'm planning to produce, although the
structure will almost certainly be composite, because that's what I'm
confident with using.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more a bogus
;; asylum seeker

On 6/11/04 11:39 pm, in article [email hidden],

Jon Senior' jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

At least if you've built the bike yourself, you've a) only got yourself
to blame. b) Got some idea of the quality of the construction.

Too true. I have an intimate knowledge of where all the problems may occur.

Quoted message said:

I can look at a weld and comment on how good it looks. But it is a leap
of faith (Albeit well supported) for me to jump on the Giant and ride it
assuming that it'll all hold together.

Especially when you cannot see the join after it has been painted and even
welds that look good can be faulty if the incorrect procedures lead to the
characteristics of the material changing.

Even with a craftsman built bike, do you know that the frame tubes (which
may have very precise heat treatment requirements) have not been mistreated?

Quoted message said:

The difference is between having
faith in your abilities and having faith in the abilities of someone
nameless, underpaid soul in a sweatshop in the far east! The principle
thing that I learnt from building the recumbent is that there is no
"magic" in bikes.

There is magic, but it is in the design, not the manufacture. And in the
riding of course..

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't pretend to be a master (Or even a bad
apprentice), but I have covered some serious distances on my recumbent
and clocked some impressive speeds (Some while the frame was known to be
cracking).

If it was cracking, I don't think I'd be riding it, and definitely wouldn't
have the kids on it.

Anyway, Rachel had a hand in choosing the paint and daubing Igor this
afternoon. It is now a tasteful shade of Hammerite mid-green. And looking a
lot better for it.

...d

Quoted message said:

From: David Martin [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

There is magic, but it is in the design, not the manufacture. And in the
riding of course..

[censored]! A good builder can turn a mediocre design into a solid product that very
few people have complaints with.
Bill C

TritonRider [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

[censored]! A good builder can turn a mediocre design into a solid product that very
few people have complaints with.

[censored]! Only if they change the design. A good joint would not make a bike
with reverse caster on the front wheel any better.

If the design is good, then a good builder can make it reality without
screwing it up. Equally a poor builder can make it reality, but they're
more likely to make mistakes.

Jon

My son - you have a death wish!

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are the pictures of Igor, as of this morning.

http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/igor.html

I now have to find some suitable paint and put all the bits on.

Spot the obvious things in the picture that have to be changed before it

is

Quoted message said:

ready for the road.. (not bit's that are missing, bits that are wrong..)

..d

My son - you have a death wish!

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are the pictures of Igor, as of this morning.

http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/igor.html

I now have to find some suitable paint and put all the bits on.

Spot the obvious things in the picture that have to be changed before it

is

Quoted message said:

ready for the road.. (not bit's that are missing, bits that are wrong..)

..d