Tune-Up Quality

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by T Scanlin
I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not a
happy camper.When I originally took it in, I mentioned the
front der wouldn't trim properly but otherwise everything
was fine. (I told them the large ring/small cog combo chain
hit the outer part of the cage.)

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a bear
so I didn't get a chance to ride it and check it out.. The
next day I noticed it still had the same problem and front
der had the little bit of slight film on the der pivot
points, exactly like when I took it on. I wasn't convinced
they did anything.

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it. They
mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it to
someone else to finish and something must have gotten
overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a stand, putzed
around for a few minutes and pronounced it ready. I took it
for a quick spin and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically, for
each front ring I had about 3-4 rear cogs that were usable
without chain noise from hitting either the inner/outer part
of the cage.

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't be
trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I didn't
cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality shop in
the northern Detroit burbs?

I don't know Detroit burbs but is Northville or Troy in reach?
I am thinking of REI. They use a document for bicycle preparation and for service. The technician that works on the bicycle checks each item and then signs off on the work. I know this because I did it in a Chicago burb store. I am sure that there are others that do as good a job and also document their work.
I run Ultegra derailers on my latest touring bicycle, but not with STI. I have the index adjustments set for crisp shifts in all ranges. I can rid the noise with friction adjustments in extreme cross chains. I have rather long chain stays though and I am not using an Ultegra crank. It could be that your Ultegra STI is wearing, but i wouldn't give up until I get a straight answer.

sounds like a crappy shop. good luck

david

"T Scanlin" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not
a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I mentioned
the front der wouldn't

trim

Quoted message said:

properly but otherwise everything was fine. (I told them
the large ring/small cog combo chain hit the outer part of
the cage.)

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a bear
so I didn't get

a

Quoted message said:

chance to ride it and check it out.. The next day I
noticed it still had

the

Quoted message said:

same problem and front der had the little bit of slight
film on the der pivot points, exactly like when I took it
on. I wasn't convinced they did anything.

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it. They
mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it to
someone else to finish and something

must

Quoted message said:

have gotten overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a
stand, putzed around for a few minutes and pronounced it
ready. I took it for a quick

spin

Quoted message said:

and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically, for each front
ring I had about

3-4

Quoted message said:

rear cogs that were usable without chain noise from
hitting either the inner/outer part of the cage.

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't
be trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I
didn't cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality shop in
the northern Detroit burbs?

In article <[email hidden]>,

T Scanlin said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not
a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I mentioned
the front der wouldn't trim properly but otherwise
everything was fine. (I told them the large ring/small cog
combo chain hit the outer part of the cage.)

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a bear
so I didn't get a chance to ride it and check it out.. The
next day I noticed it still had the same problem and front
der had the little bit of slight film on the der pivot
points, exactly like when I took it on. I wasn't convinced
they did anything.

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it.

You what?! I wonder if we have the same idea of what
that means.

Quoted message said:

They mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it
to someone else to finish and something must have gotten
overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a stand, putzed
around for a few minutes and pronounced it ready. I took
it for a quick spin and pronounced it NOT ready.
Basically, for each front ring I had about 3-4 rear cogs
that were usable without chain noise from hitting either
the inner/outer part of the cage.

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't be
trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I didn't
cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality shop in
the northern Detroit burbs?

I don't know No. Detroit shops but I know the guys at 2
Wheel Tango in Ann Arbor and I think they know what to do.

Frankly I would still call the owner and tell them you
aren't happy, make an appointment to have the bike looked at
and tell them you want it fixed to YOUR satisfaction or your
money returned. If they don't like that idea then they need
to understand how many friends and club members you are
going to tell about their incompetence. 40 would be a good
start. If they don't like that then make it 60.

--Paul

it's hard to beat mail order, a good set of tools, and a
good book; if I had depended on my LBS for service my
interest in riding would not be nearly as high, it would
have just been less fuss to get addicted to running or
swimming instead.

I had no problem supporting my LBS, but all I get in return
was slow crappy service and expensive part costs. So you say
I should find a better shop....a better shop located far
away....but some people forget that the extra distance is
inconvenience and time is money.

T Scanlin said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not
a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I mentioned
the front der wouldn't trim properly but otherwise
everything was fine. (I told them the large ring/small cog
combo chain hit the outer part of the cage.)

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a bear
so I didn't get a chance to ride it and check it out.. The
next day I noticed it still had the same problem and front
der had the little bit of slight film on the der pivot
points, exactly like when I took it on. I wasn't convinced
they did anything.

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it. They
mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it to
someone else to finish and something must have gotten
overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a stand, putzed
around for a few minutes and pronounced it ready. I took it
for a quick spin and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically,
for each front ring I had about 3-4 rear cogs that were
usable without chain noise from hitting either the
inner/outer part of the cage.

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't be
trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I didn't
cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality shop in
the northern Detroit burbs?

T Scanlin said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not
a happy camper.

...snip...

General maintenance is readily performed with a few simple
tools and a manual.

Quoted message said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not
a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I mentioned
the front der wouldn't

trim

Quoted message said:

properly but otherwise everything was fine. (I told them
the large ring/small cog combo chain hit the outer part of
the cage.)

Could be a definition problem. There is no "trim" function
in the large chainring on an Ultegra triple; it only has one
position. The middle and inside (small) chainrings are the
only ones in which you can "trim" the front derailleur.

Quoted message said:

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a bear
so I didn't get

a

Quoted message said:

chance to ride it and check it out.. The next day I
noticed it still had

the

Quoted message said:

same problem and front der had the little bit of slight
film on the der pivot points, exactly like when I took it
on. I wasn't convinced they did anything.

Pivot points on a derailleur don't usually need much (if
any) lube during a normal tune-up. If anything they might
need to be wiped down. Current-style front derailleurs
rarely, if ever, display wear or have much friction on their
pivots. OK, the short story- I don't think the lack of lube
evidence on the front derailleur is an indication of the
overall quality of the tune-up.

Quoted message said:

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it. They
mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it to
someone else to finish and something

must

Quoted message said:

have gotten overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a
stand, putzed around for a few minutes and pronounced it
ready. I took it for a quick

spin

Quoted message said:

and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically, for each front
ring I had about

3-4

Quoted message said:

rear cogs that were usable without chain noise from
hitting either the inner/outer part of the cage.

For the inside & middle chainrings, 3-4 gear changes before
needing to trim the front derailleur would be about right.
But if you're saying that you're unable to get rid of
chain/derailleur scraping in the middle & small chainrings
even after trimming... then it's not set up properly.

Quoted message said:

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't
be trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I
didn't cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Chain noise is almost always going to be quieter on a new
bike, due to the heavy lube that comes on the chain.

Quoted message said:

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality shop in
the northern Detroit burbs?

The Ultegra triple with STI requires a bit more than just a
by-the-book technique for adjustment. It takes a while to
get the hang of how everything interacts, and to get away
from the idea that cable tension isn't something to pay
much attention to (when it's in the small front chainring).
But it's not rocket science either, and a mechanic who has
set up a number of them should have a pretty good feel for
how it works.

It *is*quite different from the double version, because
there's no trim adjustment for the largest chainring (which
the double does have).

But I still don't have enough information to evaluate what's
really going on here, since you implied that the derailleur
doesn't trim properly in the largest chainring... and in
reality, it doesn't trim at all in that position. And I'm
also not sure what you're saying about its ability to not
make noise in more than 3-4 rear cog changes (specifically,
whether that's the case with or without using trim). - --Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

T Scanlin-<< I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple
and I'm not a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I
mentioned the front der wouldn't trim properly but otherwise
everything was fine. >><BR><BR> << I took it for a quick
spin and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically, for each front
ring I had about 3-4 rear cogs that were usable without
chain noise from hitting either the inner/outer part of the
cage. >><BR><BR>

<< Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an
Ultegra triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality
shop in the northern Detroit burbs?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

It is not that hard, just sounds like the wrench isn't all
that skilled at adjusting this sometimes finicky design.
Take it back, explain the problem completley, expect it to
be done right, to your satisfaction.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm
not a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I
mentioned the front der wouldn't

trim

Quoted message said:

properly but otherwise everything was fine. (I told them
the large ring/small cog combo chain hit the outer part
of the cage.)

Could be a definition problem. There is no "trim" function
in the large chainring on an Ultegra triple; it only has
one position. The middle and inside (small) chainrings are
the only ones in which you can "trim" the front
derailleur.

Quoted message said:

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a
bear so I didn't get

a

Quoted message said:

chance to ride it and check it out.. The next day I
noticed it still had

the

Quoted message said:

same problem and front der had the little bit of slight
film on the der pivot points, exactly like when I took
it on. I wasn't convinced they did anything.

Pivot points on a derailleur don't usually need much (if
any) lube during a normal tune-up. If anything they might
need to be wiped down. Current-style front derailleurs
rarely, if ever, display wear or have much friction on
their pivots. OK, the short story- I don't think the lack
of lube evidence on the front derailleur is an indication
of the overall quality of the tune-up.

Quoted message said:

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it. They
mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it to
someone else to finish and something

must

Quoted message said:

have gotten overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a
stand, putzed around for a few minutes and pronounced it
ready. I took it for a quick

spin

Quoted message said:

and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically, for each front
ring I had about

3-4

Quoted message said:

rear cogs that were usable without chain noise from
hitting either the inner/outer part of the cage.

For the inside & middle chainrings, 3-4 gear changes
before needing to trim the front derailleur would be about
right. But if you're saying that you're unable to get rid
of chain/derailleur scraping in the middle & small
chainrings even after trimming... then it's not set up
properly.

Quoted message said:

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't
be trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I
didn't cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Chain noise is almost always going to be quieter on a new
bike, due to the heavy lube that comes on the chain.

Quoted message said:

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an
Ultegra triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a
quality shop in the northern Detroit burbs?

The Ultegra triple with STI requires a bit more than just
a by-the-book technique for adjustment. It takes a while
to get the hang of how everything interacts, and to get
away from the idea that cable tension isn't something to
pay much attention to (when it's in the small front
chainring). But it's not rocket science either, and a
mechanic who has set up a number of them should have a
pretty good feel for how it works.

It *is*quite different from the double version, because
there's no trim adjustment for the largest chainring
(which the double does have).

But I still don't have enough information to evaluate
what's really going on here, since you implied that the
derailleur doesn't trim properly in the largest
chainring... and in reality, it doesn't trim at all in
that position. And I'm also not sure what you're saying
about its ability to not make noise in more than 3-4 rear
cog changes (specifically, whether that's the case with or
without using trim).

Did you tune-up include a new chain? If not, get one,
Shimano please.

Hi, Naturally, we all have varying degrees of mechanical
expertise on bikes.

If you haven't ever crashed the bike, and things look
basically the same as they did when new, you should be able
to check front derailleur movment, and the travel limits
without too much hassle, and even see what's going on,
without the use of a bike stand.

Do you notice a stiff movement of this part? Maybe riding
in rain has siezed up things a bit , and you are not
getting full travel of the derailleur. (Or your derailleur
cable is going to hell?) Other considerations would be the
STI Shifter itself not lettting you trim out the deraileur
far enough?

Throw the derailleur all the way out, and see if it is
indeed hitting the stops. Do a visual inspection yourself. I
know I'm only guessing here, so please forgive me if I'm
going off track here (No pun intended)

I have no idea what kind of money you have thrown at this
local dealer for this minor repair/adjustment, but if you
have become unhappy with thier service, and they seem to not
give a [censored] about you, and your bike, chalk them up as a
small loss, and take a peek in your phone book for another
good dealer in your area. Hopefully, somone in this group
lives close, and can recommend one for you.

It certainly DOESN'T have to be a Trek Dealer to do this
sort of work on your own personal Trek Bike. Virtually all
high end bike Shops nowadays all handle and service Shimano
components. Hope this helps some, and best of luck getting
your bike back up to snuff. Mark

Richard Chan said:

Did you tune-up include a new chain? If not, get one,
Shimano please.

I'd be interested in your reasoning for that. In my
experience, SRAM chains work just as well as Shimano, and
replacing a chain that isn't worn out accomplishes
nothing at all.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did you tune-up include a new chain? If not, get one,
Shimano please.

I'd be interested in your reasoning for that. In my
experience, SRAM chains work just as well as Shimano, and
replacing a chain that isn't worn out accomplishes
nothing at all.

Actually, that brings up a very good point. You'd be amazed
how many front-shifting problems are magically cured by
replacing an SRAM chain with Shimano. SRAM chains don't seem
to "catch" as quickly on an upshift as the Shimano chains
do. Rear shifting doesn't seem to matter, but front shifting
can definitely be an issue with non-Shimano chains.

For what it's worth, I'm the guinea pig for new chain
testing at the shop, and have found a couple that come
close, but, so far, nothing quite as good as the Shimano.
Too bad, since the Shimano chain is quite a bit pricier
(although, when you can find them, an HG53 is a pretty cheap
9-speed Shimano chain).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Thanks for the comments. Bottom line, took the bike to a
different shop today. Within 10 minutes I was out the door
with a "pretty darned close to new" feeling drivetrain.

The SRAM chain comments were interesting, sound like most
folks have better luck with the Shimano.

I generally do all my own work on my cheapie mountain bike
but I'm hesitant to toast the Ultegra.

Thanks to all for the insight. Tom "T Scanlin"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had my LBS tune my Trek 2300 /Ultegra triple and I'm not
a happy camper.When I originally took it in, I mentioned
the front der wouldn't

trim

Quoted message said:

properly but otherwise everything was fine. (I told them
the large ring/small cog combo chain hit the outer part of
the cage.)

Of course, when I picked it up it was raining like a bear
so I didn't get

a

Quoted message said:

chance to ride it and check it out.. The next day I
noticed it still had

the

Quoted message said:

same problem and front der had the little bit of slight
film on the der pivot points, exactly like when I took it
on. I wasn't convinced they did anything.

I took it back to the shop and wanked about it. They
mentioned the first tech had to leave and passed it to
someone else to finish and something

must

Quoted message said:

have gotten overlooked. So, the chief tech threw it in a
stand, putzed around for a few minutes and pronounced it
ready. I took it for a quick

spin

Quoted message said:

and pronounced it NOT ready. Basically, for each front
ring I had about

3-4

Quoted message said:

rear cogs that were usable without chain noise from
hitting either the inner/outer part of the cage.

When new, I don't remember any chain noise that couldn't
be trimmed out, even with severe cross chain combos. (I
didn't cross chain but COULD have without chain noise.)

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult? Anyone recommend a quality shop in
the northern Detroit burbs?

T Scanlin said:

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an Ultegra
triple that difficult?

No. I, a rank amateur (at best), did a fine job replacing my
105 double crank & derailer with Ultegra triple. I got it
perfect in under an hour. Works beautifully. I did it
according to Barnett's, the Shimano installation page that
came with the parts, and sheldonbrown.com.
--
Rick Onanian

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

T Scanlin said:

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an
Ultegra triple that difficult?

No. I, a rank amateur (at best), did a fine job replacing
my 105 double crank & derailer with Ultegra triple. I got
it perfect in under an hour. Works beautifully. I did it
according to Barnett's, the Shimano installation page that
came with the parts, and sheldonbrown.com.
--
Rick Onanian

sounds like me - 10 hours reading, 1 hour wrenching.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did you tune-up include a new chain? If not, get one,
Shimano please.

I'd be interested in your reasoning for that. In my
experience, SRAM chains work just as well as Shimano,
and replacing a chain that isn't worn out accomplishes
nothing at all.

Actually, that brings up a very good point. You'd be
amazed how many front-shifting problems are magically
cured by replacing an SRAM chain

with

Quoted message said:

Shimano. SRAM chains don't seem to "catch" as quickly on
an upshift as

the

Quoted message said:

Shimano chains do. Rear shifting doesn't seem to matter,
but front

shifting

Quoted message said:

can definitely be an issue with non-Shimano chains.

For what it's worth, I'm the guinea pig for new chain
testing at the shop, and have found a couple that come
close, but, so far, nothing quite as

good

Quoted message said:

as the Shimano. Too bad, since the Shimano chain is quite
a bit pricier (although, when you can find them, an HG53
is a pretty cheap 9-speed

Shimano

Quoted message said:

chain).

Interestingly, although not recommended by either shimano or
sram, I mix - shimano chain with sram power link, works well
for me! I also hear the wipperman connex link works with the
shimano chain too!

Bruce Graham said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

T Scanlin said:

Am I expecting too much from the LBS? Is tuning an
Ultegra triple that difficult?

No. I, a rank amateur (at best), did a fine job replacing
my 105 double crank & derailer with Ultegra triple. I got
it perfect in under an hour. Works beautifully. I did it
according to Barnett's, the Shimano installation page that
came with the parts, and sheldonbrown.com.
--
Rick Onanian

sounds like me - 10 hours reading, 1 hour wrenching.

teach a man to fish

ari said:

teach a man to fish

...and soon his house will stink?

Bill "conclusions" S.

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:07:38 GMT, "Sorni" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

ari said:

teach a man to fish

...and soon his house will stink?

In my case, my girlfriend's grandparents' house. I don't eat
fish, I just like to catch them.

I like Sheldon's tagline: If you give a man a fire, he'll be
warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for
the rest of his life.

Quoted message said:

Bill "conclusions" S.

How about a conclusion on this: How long can a pickerel stay
alive out of water? My fishing buddy caught one, but didn't
want it, so I threw it on ice with my catches for my gf's
grandparents...and a few hours later, it was still
breathing.
--
Rick Onanian

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth, I'm the guinea pig for new chain
testing at the shop, and have found a couple that come
close, but, so far, nothing quite as good as the Shimano.
Too bad, since the Shimano chain is quite a bit pricier
(although, when you can find them, an HG53 is a pretty
cheap 9-speed Shimano chain).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Hi, I have found Shimano chains, in my case the DA-7701, to
have a real wide price spread. Online the list price seems
to be $28.99, but can be found for $21.99 and I just picked
up a spare for $19.99. My LBS has them priced at $39.99. I
had some Christmas GCs and wanted a tutorial on
installation, so I bought one from the LBS, with my "good
guy" discount I got it for $36. With the installation and
install lesson, I was ok with the higher price, but this is
another example of where I just can't afford to give my LBS
the business regularly. I think at around $22 they are a
good value. What is the true list price? Life is Good! Jeff