TTT rules in the tour

So if you're Postal you hope to win and have many teams get
between you and your rivals' teams. Not terribly likely to
pay off much, though I see that it's still 20 seconds for
second, not 10.

Richard Anderson said:

I just read the rules for the TTT for this year's tour. It
looks to me like the maximum that a team could lose is
3:00 not 2:30 as I have read elsewhere. Also a team cannot
lose more than 10 seconds on the team ahead of them. This
takes a lot of importance out of this stage.

Maybe the Postal team should all ride off the front the
day before and try to put some time on the field. There's
no reason to save strength for the TTT.

Here are the rules:
--------------------------------

Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap
between them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch
time). If this gap is less than that given in the table
below, then the actual time recorded by the timekeepers
will be taken. If the gap is more than that given in the
table below, then the rider will receive the time of the
winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of
their team.

20'' for the 2nd team 30'' for the 3rd team 40'' for the
4th team 50'' for the 5th team 1' for the 6th team 1'10
for the 7th team 1'20 for the 8th team 1'30 for the 9th
team 1'40 for the 10th team 1'50 for the 11th team 2'00
for the 12th team 2'10 for the 13th team 2'20 for the 14th
team 2'30 for the 15th team 2'35 for the 16th team 2'40
for the 17th team 2'45 for the 18th team 2'50 for the 19th
team 2'55 for the 20th team 3'00 for the 21st team

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Also a team cannot lose more than 10 seconds on the team
ahead of them.

That may the practical effect but read the rule again and
don't ignore this part

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below,
then the actual time recorded by the timekeepers will
be taken.

Quoted message said:

20'' for the 2nd team 30'' for the 3rd team 40'' for the
4th team 50'' for the 5th team ...

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team
finish 15 and 60 seconds out of first respectively (actual
time), then the gap between them is 35 seconds (50-15)
according to the rule.

Maybe not a likely situation, but that is how the rule
works.

Here's how last year's TTT would have looked. The last
column is the amount the team would have improved under this
year's rule.

2003 TTT 1 US Postal 1.18.27 2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski +0.30 0.20
-0.10 3 Team Bianchi 0.43 0.30 -0.13 4 iBanesto.com 1.05
0.40 -0.25 5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.23 0.50 -0.33 6 Team
Telekom 1.30 1.00 -0.30 7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 1.32 1.10 -
0.22 8 Crédit Agricole 1.20 -0.12 9 AG2r Prévoyance 1.38
1.30 -0.08 10 Team CSC 1.45 1.40 -0.05 11 Gerolsteiner 1.49
1.50 0.00 12 Fassa Bortolo 1.53 2.00 0.00 13 Alessio 2.05
2.10 0.00 14 Cofidis, 2.06 2.20 0.00 15 Brioches La
Boulangère 2.30 2.30 0.10 16 Rabobank 2.41 2.35 -0.06 17
Team Saeco 3.02 2.40 -0.22 18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.22 2.45
-0.37 19 FDJeux.com 3.29 2.50 -0.39 20 Jean Delatour 3.37
2.55 -0.42 21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.49 3.00 -0.49 22 Lotto-
Domo 4.53 3:05? -1.48? (table stops at 21)

DR

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That may the practical effect but read the rule again and
don't ignore this part

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below,
then the actual

time

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

20'' for the 2nd team 30'' for the 3rd team 40'' for the
4th team 50'' for the 5th team ...

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team
finish 15 and 60 seconds out of first respectively (actual
time), then the gap between them is 35 seconds (50-15)
according to the rule.

I don't think that is correct. The gap in reference is the
gap between the team and the winning team.

Here it is in the rules: Times for all riders are calculated
according to the gap between them and the 5th man of the
winning team (scratch time).

Quoted message said:

Maybe not a likely situation, but that is how the
rule works.

Here's how last year's TTT would have looked. The last
column is the amount the team would have improved under
this year's rule.

2003 TTT 1 US Postal 1.18.27 2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski +0.30 0.20
-0.10 3 Team Bianchi 0.43 0.30 -0.13 4 iBanesto.com 1.05
0.40 -0.25 5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.23 0.50 -0.33 6 Team
Telekom 1.30 1.00 -0.30 7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 1.32 1.10
-0.22 8 Crédit Agricole 1.20 -0.12 9 AG2r Prévoyance 1.38
1.30 -0.08 10 Team CSC 1.45 1.40 -0.05 11 Gerolsteiner
1.49 1.50 0.00 12 Fassa Bortolo 1.53 2.00 0.00 13 Alessio
2.05 2.10 0.00 14 Cofidis, 2.06 2.20 0.00 15 Brioches La
Boulangère 2.30 2.30 0.10 16 Rabobank 2.41 2.35 -0.06 17
Team Saeco 3.02 2.40 -0.22 18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.22 2.45
-0.37 19 FDJeux.com 3.29 2.50 -0.39 20 Jean Delatour 3.37
2.55 -0.42 21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.49 3.00 -0.49 22 Lotto-
Domo 4.53 3:05? -1.48? (table stops at 21)

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still
lose only 10 seconds on the first place team. Each
subsequent team will only lose 10 seconds on the team in
front of it in the standings. And what this also means is
that if you finish one second behind the team in front of
you, you STILL lose 10 seconds.

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just read the rules for the TTT for this year's tour. It
looks to me

like

Quoted message said:

the maximum that a team could lose is 3:00 not 2:30 as I
have read elsewhere. Also a team cannot lose more than 10
seconds on the team

ahead

Quoted message said:

of them. This takes a lot of importance out of this stage.

Maybe the Postal team should all ride off the front the
day before and try to put some time on the field. There's
no reason to save strength for the TTT.

Here are the rules:
--------------------------------

Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap
between them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch
time). If this gap is less than that given in the table
below, then the actual

time

Quoted message said:

recorded by the timekeepers will be taken. If the gap is
more than that given in the table below, then the rider
will receive the time of the winning team plus the
additional number of seconds indicated in the table below
according to the place of their team.

20'' for the 2nd team 30'' for the 3rd team 40'' for the
4th team 50'' for the 5th team 1' for the 6th team 1'10
for the 7th team 1'20 for the 8th team 1'30 for the 9th
team 1'40 for the 10th team 1'50 for the 11th team 2'00
for the 12th team 2'10 for the 13th team 2'20 for the 14th
team 2'30 for the 15th team 2'35 for the 16th team 2'40
for the 17th team 2'45 for the 18th team 2'50 for the 19th
team 2'55 for the 20th team 3'00 for the 21st team

On 07/05/2004 12:27 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Tom Kunich"

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will
still lose only 10 seconds on the first place team. Each
subsequent team will only lose 10 seconds on the team in
front of it in the standings. And what this also means is
that if you finish one second behind the team in front of
you, you STILL lose 10 seconds.

No ... If you finish one second behind the team in front of
you, you only lose that one second ... You just can't lose
MORE than 19 seconds on the team finishing in front of you.

Quoted message said:

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just read the rules for the TTT for this year's tour.
It looks to me

like

Quoted message said:

the maximum that a team could lose is 3:00 not 2:30 as I
have read elsewhere. Also a team cannot lose more than 10
seconds on the team

ahead

Quoted message said:

of them. This takes a lot of importance out of this
stage.

Maybe the Postal team should all ride off the front the
day before and try to put some time on the field. There's
no reason to save strength for the TTT.

Here are the rules:
--------------------------------

Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap
between them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch
time). If this gap is less than that given in the table
below, then the actual

time

Quoted message said:

recorded by the timekeepers will be taken. If the gap is
more than that given in the table below, then the rider
will receive the time of the winning team plus the
additional number of seconds indicated in the table below
according to the place of their team.

20'' for the 2nd team 30'' for the 3rd team 40'' for
the 4th team 50'' for the 5th team 1' for the 6th team
1'10 for the 7th team 1'20 for the 8th team 1'30 for
the 9th team 1'40 for the 10th team 1'50 for the 11th
team 2'00 for the 12th team 2'10 for the 13th team 2'20
for the 14th team 2'30 for the 15th team 2'35 for the
16th team 2'40 for the 17th team 2'45 for the 18th team
2'50 for the 19th team 2'55 for the 20th team 3'00 for
the 21st team

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

Steven L. Sheffield said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will
still lose only 10 seconds on the first place team. Each
subsequent team will only lose 10 seconds on the team in
front of it in the standings. And what this also means is
that if you finish one second behind the team in front of
you, you STILL lose 10 seconds.

No ... If you finish one second behind the team in front of
you, you only lose that one second ... You just can't lose
MORE than 19 seconds on the team finishing in front of you.

You can however lose more time on another team than your
actual time difference. For example, if the second placed
team finishes 2.30 down on the first, and the next few teams
finishes at 2.31, the riders in the second placed team will
lose 20 seconds on GC, while those in the third team will
lose 30 seconds, the next 40 seconds and so on, despite all
finishing in around the same time, and if the winning team
doesn't have any real GC contenders, it could have quite a
perverse effect on GC. Although it probably won't happen
that high up the placings, it seems quite likely to happen
somewhere down the field.

Roger

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

I wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team
finish 15 and 60 seconds out of first respectively
(actual time), then the gap between them is 35 seconds
(50-15) according to the rule.

I don't think that is correct. The gap in reference is the
gap between the team and the winning team.

Here it is in the rules: Times for all riders are
calculated according to the gap between them and the 5th
man of the winning team (scratch time).

What is your point? Or, show us WHY this is not correct. If
the fourth place team finishes 15 seconds behind the first
place team they get the time of the first place team plus
either 15 seconds (their actual time) OR 40 seconds (from
the rule) whichever is less. Their time is therefore, the
winning time +15

Then, if the fifth place team finishes 60 seconds behind the
first place team, they get the time of the first place team
plus either 60 seconds (their actual time) OR 50 seconds
(from the rule) whichever is less. Their time is therefore,
the winning time +50.

The difference between 50 and 15 is 35. It is possible to
have a difference of greater than 10 seconds betweeen
consecutively placing teams.

DR

(DirtRoadie) said:

It is possible to have a difference of greater than 10
seconds betweeen consecutively placing teams.

Indeed. The likely problem is that it is possible that teams
other than the winning team that finish close together may
have the gaps between them stretched out - in a (reductio ad
absurdum) worst case scenario riders from two teams in
second and 21st place could finish .2 seconds apart but end
up with the second placed team's riders being given times 2
minutes 40 seconds better than the other.

Roger

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will
still lose only 10 seconds on the first place team. Each
subsequent team will only lose 10 seconds on the team in
front of it in the standings. And what this also means is
that if you finish one second behind the team in front of
you, you STILL lose 10 seconds.

That is possible but not a certainty. It is true if where
both respective teams are outside the predetermined values
from the rule.

Counter Example Consider second place team finishing @+20,
third @+21. The final times according to the rule would be
+20 and +21 respectively. That's still only 1 second.

Now if that becomes second place team finishing @+30, third
@+31, then the final times according to the rule would be
+20 and +30 respectively. That is 10 seconds.

For a better real world example see my first post in this
thread. DR

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steven L. Sheffield said:

No ... If you finish one second behind the team in
front of you, you only lose that one second ... You
just can't lose MORE than 19 seconds on the team
finishing in front of you.

You know, if next to no one can actually figure out the
rules for this event, why the hell bother with it?
Explaining the way a tour is run to someone who isn't
into the sport (and many who are) is not an easy task -
add in this mess and you might as well give up. It seems
more logical to give each team a numerical score, like in
figure skating. There would be two parts - one for
technical merit ("They did their rotations at exactly the
same interval."😉 and one for artistic merit ("They kept
their cranks in phase."😉 Everyone would be given the same
time to perform their routine, err, I mean run.

--
tanx, Howard

"The fickleness of fame and fortune's
caprice Together changed the life of Mason
Reese" Alice Donut

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>-
...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will
still lose only 10 seconds on the first place team. Each
subsequent team will only lose 10 seconds on the team in
front of it in the standings. And what this also means
is that if you finish one second behind the team in
front of you,

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

STILL lose 10 seconds.

That is possible but not a certainty. It is true if where
both respective teams are outside the predetermined values
from the rule.

Counter Example Consider second place team finishing @+20,
third @+21. The final times according to the rule would be
+20 and +21 respectively. That's still only 1 second.

Now if that becomes second place team finishing @+30,
third @+31, then the final times according to the rule
would be +20 and +30 respectively. That is 10 seconds.

For a better real world example see my first post in
this thread.

One thing is for certain - I sure as hell don't understand
why they did it this way. You might as well not have a TTT.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]-
.net>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will
still lose only

10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team
will only lose

10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seconds on the team in front of it in the standings.
And what this

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

means is that if you finish one second behind the team
in front of

you,

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

STILL lose 10 seconds.

That is possible but not a certainty. It is true if
where both respective teams are outside the
predetermined values from the rule.

Counter Example Consider second place team finishing
@+20, third @+21. The final times according to the rule
would be +20 and +21 respectively. That's still only 1
second.

Now if that becomes second place team finishing @+30,
third @+31, then the final times according to the rule
would be +20 and +30 respectively. That is 10 seconds.

For a better real world example see my first post in
this thread.

One thing is for certain - I sure as hell don't
understand why they did it this way. You might as well
not have a TTT.

That is a good question. I have been trying to figure out
why and the only reason I can is to make it harder for the
top teams to get some time between them and the field. This
is not a good new rule for USP for certain.

Curt

You are correct. I thought you meant something else.

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams
team finish 15 and 60 seconds out of first
respectively (actual time), then the gap between them
is 35 seconds (50-15) according to the rule.

I don't think that is correct. The gap in reference is
the gap between

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

team and the winning team.

Here it is in the rules: Times for all riders are
calculated according to the gap between them

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

What is your point? Or, show us WHY this is not correct.
If the fourth place team finishes 15 seconds behind the
first place team they get the time of the first place team
plus either 15 seconds (their actual time) OR 40 seconds
(from the rule) whichever is less. Their time is
therefore, the winning time +15

Then, if the fifth place team finishes 60 seconds behind
the first place team, they get the time of the first place
team plus either 60 seconds (their actual time) OR 50
seconds (from the rule) whichever is less. Their time is
therefore, the winning time +50.

The difference between 50 and 15 is 35. It is possible to
have a difference of greater than 10 seconds betweeen
consecutively placing teams.

DR

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One thing is for certain - I sure as hell don't
understand why they did

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this way. You might as well not have a TTT.

That is a good question. I have been trying to figure out
why and the

only

Quoted message said:

reason I can is to make it harder for the top teams to get
some time

between

Quoted message said:

them and the field. This is not a good new rule for USP
for certain.

Well, remember that they eliminated the TTT for several
years in order to give a disadvantage to Indurain. But it
is missed when it isn't there and this dinking with the
scoring systems rather than using straight time just if
trying to take away the advantage of the GC teams who staff
up for the TTT.