TTT rules in the tour

So if you're Postal you hope to win and have many teams get between you
and your rivals' teams. Not terribly likely to pay off much, though I
see that it's still 20 seconds for second, not 10.

Richard Anderson said:

I just read the rules for the TTT for this year's tour. It looks to me like
the maximum that a team could lose is 3:00 not 2:30 as I have read
elsewhere. Also a team cannot lose more than 10 seconds on the team ahead
of them. This takes a lot of importance out of this stage.

Maybe the Postal team should all ride off the front the day before and try
to put some time on the field. There's no reason to save strength for the
TTT.

Here are the rules:
--------------------------------

Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and
the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).
If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual time
recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will
receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.

20'' for the 2nd team
30'' for the 3rd team
40'' for the 4th team
50'' for the 5th team
1' for the 6th team
1'10 for the 7th team
1'20 for the 8th team
1'30 for the 9th team
1'40 for the 10th team
1'50 for the 11th team
2'00 for the 12th team
2'10 for the 13th team
2'20 for the 14th team
2'30 for the 15th team
2'35 for the 16th team
2'40 for the 17th team
2'45 for the 18th team
2'50 for the 19th team
2'55 for the 20th team
3'00 for the 21st team

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Also a team cannot lose more than 10 seconds on the team ahead
of them.

That may the practical effect but read the rule again and don't ignore
this part

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual time
recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

20'' for the 2nd team
30'' for the 3rd team
40'' for the 4th team
50'' for the 5th team
...

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team finish 15 and
60 seconds out of first respectively (actual time), then the gap
between them is 35 seconds (50-15) according to the rule.

Maybe not a likely situation, but that is how the rule works.

Here's how last year's TTT would have looked. The last column is the
amount the team would have improved under this year's rule.

2003 TTT
1 US Postal 1.18.27
2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski +0.30 0.20 -0.10
3 Team Bianchi 0.43 0.30 -0.13
4 iBanesto.com 1.05 0.40 -0.25
5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.23 0.50 -0.33
6 Team Telekom 1.30 1.00 -0.30
7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 1.32 1.10 -0.22
8 Crédit Agricole 1.20 -0.12
9 AG2r Prévoyance 1.38 1.30 -0.08
10 Team CSC 1.45 1.40 -0.05
11 Gerolsteiner 1.49 1.50 0.00
12 Fassa Bortolo 1.53 2.00 0.00
13 Alessio 2.05 2.10 0.00
14 Cofidis, 2.06 2.20 0.00
15 Brioches La Boulangère 2.30 2.30 0.10
16 Rabobank 2.41 2.35 -0.06
17 Team Saeco 3.02 2.40 -0.22
18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.22 2.45 -0.37
19 FDJeux.com 3.29 2.50 -0.39
20 Jean Delatour 3.37 2.55 -0.42
21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.49 3.00 -0.49
22 Lotto-Domo 4.53 3:05? -1.48? (table stops at 21)

DR

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That may the practical effect but read the rule again and don't ignore
this part

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

20'' for the 2nd team
30'' for the 3rd team
40'' for the 4th team
50'' for the 5th team
...

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team finish 15 and
60 seconds out of first respectively (actual time), then the gap
between them is 35 seconds (50-15) according to the rule.

I don't think that is correct. The gap in reference is the gap between the
team and the winning team.

Here it is in the rules:
Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and
the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

Quoted message said:

Maybe not a likely situation, but that is how the rule works.

Here's how last year's TTT would have looked. The last column is the
amount the team would have improved under this year's rule.

2003 TTT
1 US Postal 1.18.27
2 O.N.C.E.-Eroski +0.30 0.20 -0.10
3 Team Bianchi 0.43 0.30 -0.13
4 iBanesto.com 1.05 0.40 -0.25
5 Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.23 0.50 -0.33
6 Team Telekom 1.30 1.00 -0.30
7 Vini Caldirola-SO.DI 1.32 1.10 -0.22
8 Crédit Agricole 1.20 -0.12
9 AG2r Prévoyance 1.38 1.30 -0.08
10 Team CSC 1.45 1.40 -0.05
11 Gerolsteiner 1.49 1.50 0.00
12 Fassa Bortolo 1.53 2.00 0.00
13 Alessio 2.05 2.10 0.00
14 Cofidis, 2.06 2.20 0.00
15 Brioches La Boulangère 2.30 2.30 0.10
16 Rabobank 2.41 2.35 -0.06
17 Team Saeco 3.02 2.40 -0.22
18 Euskaltel-Euskadi 3.22 2.45 -0.37
19 FDJeux.com 3.29 2.50 -0.39
20 Jean Delatour 3.37 2.55 -0.42
21 Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.49 3.00 -0.49
22 Lotto-Domo 4.53 3:05? -1.48? (table stops at 21)

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still lose only 10
seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team will only lose 10
seconds on the team in front of it in the standings. And what this also
means is that if you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you
STILL lose 10 seconds.

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just read the rules for the TTT for this year's tour. It looks to me

like

Quoted message said:

the maximum that a team could lose is 3:00 not 2:30 as I have read
elsewhere. Also a team cannot lose more than 10 seconds on the team

ahead

Quoted message said:

of them. This takes a lot of importance out of this stage.

Maybe the Postal team should all ride off the front the day before and try
to put some time on the field. There's no reason to save strength for the
TTT.

Here are the rules:
--------------------------------

Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and
the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).
If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time

Quoted message said:

recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will
receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.

20'' for the 2nd team
30'' for the 3rd team
40'' for the 4th team
50'' for the 5th team
1' for the 6th team
1'10 for the 7th team
1'20 for the 8th team
1'30 for the 9th team
1'40 for the 10th team
1'50 for the 11th team
2'00 for the 12th team
2'10 for the 13th team
2'20 for the 14th team
2'30 for the 15th team
2'35 for the 16th team
2'40 for the 17th team
2'45 for the 18th team
2'50 for the 19th team
2'55 for the 20th team
3'00 for the 21st team

On 07/05/2004 12:27 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Tom Kunich"

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still lose only 10
seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team will only lose 10
seconds on the team in front of it in the standings. And what this also
means is that if you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you
STILL lose 10 seconds.

No ... If you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you only
lose that one second ... You just can't lose MORE than 19 seconds on the
team finishing in front of you.

Quoted message said:

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just read the rules for the TTT for this year's tour. It looks to me

like

Quoted message said:

the maximum that a team could lose is 3:00 not 2:30 as I have read
elsewhere. Also a team cannot lose more than 10 seconds on the team

ahead

Quoted message said:

of them. This takes a lot of importance out of this stage.

Maybe the Postal team should all ride off the front the day before and try
to put some time on the field. There's no reason to save strength for the
TTT.

Here are the rules:
--------------------------------

Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and
the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).
If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time

Quoted message said:

recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will
receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.

20'' for the 2nd team
30'' for the 3rd team
40'' for the 4th team
50'' for the 5th team
1' for the 6th team
1'10 for the 7th team
1'20 for the 8th team
1'30 for the 9th team
1'40 for the 10th team
1'50 for the 11th team
2'00 for the 12th team
2'10 for the 13th team
2'20 for the 14th team
2'30 for the 15th team
2'35 for the 16th team
2'40 for the 17th team
2'45 for the 18th team
2'50 for the 19th team
2'55 for the 20th team
3'00 for the 21st team

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

Steven L. Sheffield said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still lose only 10
seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team will only lose 10
seconds on the team in front of it in the standings. And what this also
means is that if you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you
STILL lose 10 seconds.

No ... If you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you only
lose that one second ... You just can't lose MORE than 19 seconds on the
team finishing in front of you.

You can however lose more time on another team than your actual time
difference. For example, if the second placed team finishes 2.30 down
on the first, and the next few teams finishes at 2.31, the riders in
the second placed team will lose 20 seconds on GC, while those in the
third team will lose 30 seconds, the next 40 seconds and so on,
despite all finishing in around the same time, and if the winning team
doesn't have any real GC contenders, it could have quite a perverse
effect on GC. Although it probably won't happen that high up the
placings, it seems quite likely to happen somewhere down the field.

Roger

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

I wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team finish 15 and
60 seconds out of first respectively (actual time), then the gap
between them is 35 seconds (50-15) according to the rule.

I don't think that is correct. The gap in reference is the gap between the
team and the winning team.

Here it is in the rules:
Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and
the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

What is your point?
Or, show us WHY this is not correct.
If the fourth place team finishes 15 seconds behind the first place
team they get the time of the first place team plus either 15 seconds
(their actual time) OR 40 seconds (from the rule) whichever is less.
Their time is therefore, the winning time +15

Then, if the fifth place team finishes 60 seconds behind the first
place team, they get the time of the first place team plus either 60
seconds (their actual time) OR 50 seconds (from the rule) whichever
is less.
Their time is therefore, the winning time +50.

The difference between 50 and 15 is 35.
It is possible to have a difference of greater than 10 seconds
betweeen consecutively placing teams.

DR

(DirtRoadie) said:

It is possible to have a difference of greater than 10 seconds
betweeen consecutively placing teams.

Indeed. The likely problem is that it is possible that teams other
than the winning team that finish close together may have the gaps
between them stretched out - in a (reductio ad absurdum) worst case
scenario riders from two teams in second and 21st place could finish
0.2 seconds apart but end up with the second placed team's riders
being given times 2 minutes 40 seconds better than the other.

Roger

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steven L. Sheffield said:

No ... If you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you only
lose that one second ... You just can't lose MORE than 19 seconds on the
team finishing in front of you.

You know, if next to no one can actually figure out the rules for this
event, why the hell bother with it? Explaining the way a tour is run to
someone who isn't into the sport (and many who are) is not an easy task -
add in this mess and you might as well give up. It seems more logical to
give each team a numerical score, like in figure skating. There would be
two parts - one for technical merit ("They did their rotations at exactly
the same interval."😉 and one for artistic merit ("They kept their cranks in
phase."😉 Everyone would be given the same time to perform their routine,
err, I mean run.

--
tanx,
Howard

"The fickleness of fame and fortune's caprice
Together changed the life of Mason Reese"
Alice Donut

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still lose only 10
seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team will only lose 10
seconds on the team in front of it in the standings. And what this also
means is that if you finish one second behind the team in front of you, you
STILL lose 10 seconds.

That is possible but not a certainty. It is true if where both
respective teams are outside the predetermined values from the rule.

Counter Example
Consider second place team finishing @+20, third @+21.
The final times according to the rule would be +20 and +21
respectively.
That's still only 1 second.

Now if that becomes second place team finishing @+30, third @+31,
then the final times according to the rule would be +20 and +30
respectively.
That is 10 seconds.

For a better real world example see my first post in this thread.
DR

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still lose only 10
seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team will only lose 10
seconds on the team in front of it in the standings. And what this also
means is that if you finish one second behind the team in front of you,

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

STILL lose 10 seconds.

That is possible but not a certainty. It is true if where both
respective teams are outside the predetermined values from the rule.

Counter Example
Consider second place team finishing @+20, third @+21.
The final times according to the rule would be +20 and +21
respectively.
That's still only 1 second.

Now if that becomes second place team finishing @+30, third @+31,
then the final times according to the rule would be +20 and +30
respectively.
That is 10 seconds.

For a better real world example see my first post in this thread.

One thing is for certain - I sure as hell don't understand why they did it
this way. You might as well not have a TTT.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! If the second team is an hour behind it will still lose only

10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seconds on the first place team. Each subsequent team will only lose

10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seconds on the team in front of it in the standings. And what this

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

means is that if you finish one second behind the team in front of

you,

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

STILL lose 10 seconds.

That is possible but not a certainty. It is true if where both
respective teams are outside the predetermined values from the rule.

Counter Example
Consider second place team finishing @+20, third @+21.
The final times according to the rule would be +20 and +21
respectively.
That's still only 1 second.

Now if that becomes second place team finishing @+30, third @+31,
then the final times according to the rule would be +20 and +30
respectively.
That is 10 seconds.

For a better real world example see my first post in this thread.

One thing is for certain - I sure as hell don't understand why they did it
this way. You might as well not have a TTT.

That is a good question. I have been trying to figure out why and the only
reason I can is to make it harder for the top teams to get some time between
them and the field. This is not a good new rule for USP for certain.

Curt

You are correct. I thought you meant something else.

"DirtRoadie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Richard Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Example: If the fourth place and fifth place teams team finish 15 and
60 seconds out of first respectively (actual time), then the gap
between them is 35 seconds (50-15) according to the rule.

I don't think that is correct. The gap in reference is the gap between

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

team and the winning team.

Here it is in the rules:
Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

What is your point?
Or, show us WHY this is not correct.
If the fourth place team finishes 15 seconds behind the first place
team they get the time of the first place team plus either 15 seconds
(their actual time) OR 40 seconds (from the rule) whichever is less.
Their time is therefore, the winning time +15

Then, if the fifth place team finishes 60 seconds behind the first
place team, they get the time of the first place team plus either 60
seconds (their actual time) OR 50 seconds (from the rule) whichever
is less.
Their time is therefore, the winning time +50.

The difference between 50 and 15 is 35.
It is possible to have a difference of greater than 10 seconds
betweeen consecutively placing teams.

DR

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One thing is for certain - I sure as hell don't understand why they did

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this way. You might as well not have a TTT.

That is a good question. I have been trying to figure out why and the

only

Quoted message said:

reason I can is to make it harder for the top teams to get some time

between

Quoted message said:

them and the field. This is not a good new rule for USP for certain.

Well, remember that they eliminated the TTT for several years in order to
give a disadvantage to Indurain. But it is missed when it isn't there and
this dinking with the scoring systems rather than using straight time just
if trying to take away the advantage of the GC teams who staff up for the
TTT.