Trying to give up computer

[Dan Cosley]

In article <[email protected]>, Ron Hardin wrote:
> Replace the computer with a cheap eTrex GPS. It's much more entertaining, and the speed page isn't
> the most interesting thing. It's the old trail of breadcrumbs you're crossing, or some waypoint
> from a previous day.

Interesting that you say that. Our research group is talking about ways to leverage GPS trails,
perhaps along with a digital camera (helmet mount?), to help people enjoy travelling more. We're
looking at biking as one app, doing touristy things as another. For example, it's frustrating to
look at the route books put out by the Twin Cities Bicycling Club and see only one or two rides that
pass within 8-10 miles of my house in the northwest part of the city proper. It would be fantastic
to have a set of people's travels that I could use to find route legs that lots of cyclists use --
where are the better streets to ride here?

-- Dan

--
Dan Cosley ([email protected] * http://www.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/) GroupLens Research
Lab, Univ of MN (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372) *** Just a foot soldier in the Army
of Truth ***

 

[Bgaudet0801]

"Dan Cosley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I just switched bikes, and the new one has no computer. I'm considering not getting one -- I have
> a tendency to look down at the little speed number, to the detriment of paying attention to
> cycling.
>
> How many of you have ridden with a computer and then decided to get rid of it? Do you miss it?

I didn't 'decide' to get rid of it. I did decide replacement costs [I'm
rather rough on them when I go offroad] were higher than I wished to pay.

Yah, I did miss it. But I know my average speed and with a map I can guestiimate my distances. If I
could purchase one that would stand up to off road abuse I'd gladly purchase it at premium but the
lack doesn't really detract from riding.

And I found analogously that when the clock at the pool was broken I tended to swim longer when I
didn't know exactly how much time had elapsed.

 

[Mike Kruger]

"Dan Cosley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> How many of you have ridden with a computer and then decided to get rid of it? Do you miss it?
>
> Do people use computers in nontraditional ways? For example, taping over the display or mounting
> upside down so it's way inconvenient to read while riding but you can get cumulative stats, etc?
>
On my last tour, the way I folded the map into the map case usually obscured the computer.

I found that it was more fun not to have the temptation to see how fast
(i.e. slowly) I was going up a hill, or how far I'd gone since the last time I looked. I purposely
left the map case there on the day when I was coming home and knew the route very well.

Still, it was nice to be able to see how far I'd gone at the end of the day, and nice to know how
far I've gone in a year. The computer is also nice if you are doing some exercise, and want to
average at least X speed over Y time.

 

[Bb]

Me too! I dumped the numbers and ride like I did 45 years ago...for transportation and for fun. bb

"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... Now that I am used
to not having the computer, it is nice. I no longer train; I simply enjoy the rides.

 

[David Reuteler]

Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
: Yup. However, "*tested* lines of code" is a good measure. It's one I used in a former life.

yea, that's exactly why i switched from k&r style braces. each one of those adds up, ya know.

and each & every one tests just great!

ahh, metrics.
--
david reuteler [email protected]

 

[Rick Onanian]

On 04 Sep 2003 19:02:01 GMT, David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Yup. However, "*tested* lines of code" is a good measure. It's one I
>
> yea, that's exactly why i switched from k&r style braces. each one of

I'm a relatively new C programmer. Care to elaborate? What can you switch to, and why?

> those adds up, ya know.

Each brace set adds up? Okay, I'll beleive that.

> and each & every one tests just great!
>
> ahh, metrics.

Huh?

Huh?

<G>

FWIW, I've programmed bash scripts for longer than C, and I must say...the C++ course I've been
taking has been relatively easy for me.

--
Rick Onanian

 

[David Reuteler]

Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
: I'm a relatively new C programmer. Care to elaborate? What can you switch to, and why?

: FWIW, I've programmed bash scripts for longer than C, and I must say...the C++ course I've been
: taking has been relatively easy for me.

k&r (as in kernighan & ritchie who helped invent C) ..

ahh, this is all gonna seem so banal. it's one of those religious wars (emacs vs vi, linux vs bsd,
etc) but they originally supported a coding style wrt braces (for all time refered to as k&r style
braces) of ..

if (condition) { statement; statement; }

ahhh, very nice. but if some bureaucrat is sitting over your shoulder doing metrics (all sorts of
nice programs that measure not just code length but especially complexity) on your code and using it
to calculcate your quarterly bonus (this was in the old days. naturally no one gets bonuses now
except for a paycheck) you might (as i did) wonder why you're throwing away all those extra lines
*ESPECIALLY* when there's a compellingly snooty logic behind switching over to .. BSD style braces

if (condition) { statement; statement; }

miss it? pulled the first brace down and bought you an extra line. works especially well on if then
elses where 8 lines for BSD style ..

if (condition) { foo; } else { bar; }

compresses to 5 lines ..

if (condition) { foo; } else { bar; }

i'm a convert anyhow, i believe the BSD style is a lot more readable (that's the compelling
snooty reason).

trinaries (as in perl) are deadly .. why do:

$foo = $condition ? 1 : 2;

when you can do ..

if($condition) { $foo = 1; } else { $bar = 2; }

C is a great language. she's the ***** goddess. all things UNIX come from her. i really love to
write in C but don't get to do it nearly as much anymore.

as a further aside, line counters were a great boon for perl readability. previously most perl
programmers were really into compressing their 500 line scripts into 20 lines of unreadable regex.
furthermore if you use "use strict" and declare all your variables who knows how many lines that'll
add PLUS it'll actually be better coding to do so.

$_ and not having "use strict" be a default are enough reasons to draw and quarter larry wall.

but i digress.
--
david reuteler [email protected]

 

[Rick Onanian]

On 05 Sep 2003 16:52:32 GMT, David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote:
> k&r (as in kernighan & ritchie who helped invent C) ..

Yup, familiar with that term anyway, have the book, etc.

> ahh, this is all gonna seem so banal. it's one of those religious wars vs vi, linux vs bsd, etc)
> but they originally supported a coding style wrt braces (for all time refered to as k&r style
> braces) of ..

> if (condition) { }

> if (condition) { }

The second way, with the brace on a new line, is how it is taught in the class I'm taking. I went in
with the habit of cramming everything possible on one line, but have since gotten a feel for the
reasons to put everything on seperate lines.

With the braces, I especially like having the opening and closing brace line up vertically with each
other, something that you can't efficiently do if the opening brace comes in at character 40...

> trinaries (as in perl) are deadly .. why do: $foo = $condition ? 1 : 2;
>
> when you can do ..
>
> if($condition) { $foo = 1; } else { $bar = 2; }

I like the ?: operator; it makes things simpler and more readable *in_some_situations*. It's not a
good replacement for if-else at all, but it's great for output statements and such.

Of course, both issues, {} and ?:, I would see differently if I was paid by the line...

> C is a great language. she's the ***** goddess. all things UNIX come her. i really love to write
> in C but don't get to do it nearly as much anymore.

My Linux and BSD experience has really helped me learn C. I suppose if I had learned C first, I'd
have had an easier time in *nix.

> as a further aside, line counters were a great boon for perl readability.

I should learn perl soon. That would be a good idea.

> previously most perl programmers were really into compressing their 500 line scripts into 20 lines
> of unreadable regex. furthermore if you use

Ever see the Obfuscated C code contest?

> but i digress.

No!@ We must fill the group with off-topic stuff!

Bicyclists should be in comp.programmers.c or some such!

--
Rick Onanian

 

[David Reuteler]

Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
: My Linux and BSD experience has really helped me learn C. I suppose if I had learned C first, I'd
: have had an easier time in *nix.

probably not. but you'd appreciate it a lot more. my god, how they wrote an entire OS with it!

: Ever see the Obfuscated C code contest?

you'd like perl. it's an awful lot like obfuscated C.
--
david reuteler [email protected]

 

[Michael]

David Reuteler wrote:
>
> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Yup. However, "*tested* lines of code" is a good measure. It's one I used in a former life.
>
> yea, that's exactly why i switched from k&r style braces. each one of those adds up, ya know.
>
> and each & every one tests just great!
>
> ahh, metrics.
> --
> david reuteler [email protected]

(sigh) ... Yet another reason to avoid C that I hadn't considered. Added it to my list. Tnx.

 

[Bill Davidson]

David Reuteler wrote:
> k&r (as in kernighan & ritchie who helped invent C) ..

Dennis Ritchie invented C. He helped invent UNIX with Ken Thompson. C was invented for the purpose
of writing operating systems; specifically UNIX.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

 

[Risto Varanka]

David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote:
: Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
: : My Linux and BSD experience has really helped me learn C. I suppose if I had learned C first,
: : I'd have had an easier time in *nix.

: probably not. but you'd appreciate it a lot more.

Second that. C since about '89, unix only from '93...

Historically, C and Unix go hand in hand...

: my god, how they wrote an entire OS with it!

Try writing it in some other language than C? =)

Back to on-topic: anybody wrote cycling software in C?

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Bill Davidson]

David Reuteler wrote:
> you'd like perl. it's an awful lot like obfuscated C.

Not the way I write it. In fact, my Perl looks a lot like C in terms of how it's structured. Perl
need not be obfuscated.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

 

[Bill Davidson]

[email protected] wrote:
> Second that. C since about '89, unix only from '93...

C since '83 (PC-DOS 2.0), UNIX since '85 (on a PDP-11).

> Historically, C and Unix go hand in hand...

C was invented to implement UNIX.

> Back to on-topic: anybody wrote cycling software in C?

I wrote a gear calculator in C back around 1987.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

 

[Risto Varanka]

Mike Kruger <[email protected]> wrote:

: Still, it was nice to be able to see how far I'd gone at the end of the day, and nice to know how
: far I've gone in a year. The computer is also nice if you are doing some exercise, and want to
: average at least X speed over Y time.

On very long training rides, one can gain some extra motivation from an occasional glance at the
distance reading. Gives a concrete, objective figure of your achievement so far...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Risto Varanka]

Dan Cosley <[email protected]> wrote:

: Interesting that you say that. Our research group is talking about ways to leverage GPS trails,
: perhaps along with a digital camera (helmet mount?), to help people enjoy travelling more.

Combining cycling and informatics looks interesting to me as well. It would be nice if you could get
speed, position, cadence, heart rate, position and weather data into the same log with camera
footage. I bet the technological basis is there, but we'd need more open interfaces from the gadget
vendors and probably also some formal industry standards for that to come about. Think about the
Internet, it would never have gone this far without lots and lots of those.

I guess the Dutch ANWB could well provide GPS coordinates and even some online images for their
navigation points in 5 years or so )

If the open platforms were there, you could easily just go ride and at home with a few mouseclicks,
you'd share your route with others...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Buck]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan Cosley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Interesting that you say that. Our research group is talking about ways to leverage GPS trails,
> : perhaps along with a digital camera (helmet mount?), to help people enjoy travelling more.
>
> Combining cycling and informatics looks interesting to me as well. It would be nice if you could
> get speed, position, cadence, heart rate, position and weather data into the same log with camera
> footage.

Why not go for the whole enchilada? Add enough sensors and you could include gear selection, torque,
front and rear brake pressure, deviation from vertical, tire pressure, tire temperature, apparent
wind velocity, and uhhhh.... perhaps a whole suite of body readings like temps, glucose level,
salinity, and on and on and on....

Get it right and we could all be rolling laboratories!



-Buck

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:33:25 -0700, Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Not the way I write it. In fact, my Perl looks a lot like C in terms of how it's structured. Perl
> need not be obfuscated.

You must obfuscate. Don't forget: Obfuscation r00lz j00!

> --Bill Davidson
--
Rick Onanian

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:37:04 -0700, Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I wrote a gear calculator in C back around 1987.

Drat. I was going to try that project...

> --Bill Davidson
--
Rick Onanian

 

[Bill Davidson]

Rick Onanian wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:37:04 -0700, Bill Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I wrote a gear calculator in C back around 1987.
>
> Drat. I was going to try that project...

I don't know where it is. It only did simple ratios to help me find duplicates. I haven't used it in
years. Sheldon's web based calculator is better anyway with different types of gear measurments and
lots of standard cassettes and freewheels pre-programmed into it.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now