Trouble With Front Wheel Build

Kenny said:

Yeah I know the front wheel is supposed to be easy. My materials are as
follows: Alex Rim R400, DT 1.8/1.6 spokes, DT alloy nipples and a 32
hole Record hub. Lacing 3X. Last week this wheel practically collapsed
because I didn't finishe it with enough tension. My first repair
attempt was to just put it up on the truing stand and true it up with
more finishing tension. To my demise, I didn't zero it out first and
start from scratch, because even though I had a high tension the trued
wheel had uneven spoke tension. But anyway, went out on our Sunday club
ride. Typical ride with lots of climbing and gear mashing. Racing down
on one of the long descents and in my semi-aero position I eyed my
front wheel which was wobbling pretty bad. Damn it! I knew I should
have made sure the tension was uniform when I finished the repair. Got
home and this morning decided to completely despoke the wheel and
relace it. I also decided to replace the used alloy nipples with fresh
alloy nipples as the used ones were looking a little worst to wear.
Getting right to the point, after getting the wheel up to finishing
tension, I take it off the stand and begin squeezing the spokes in
pairs with my hands. I put it back on the stand to check its trueness
and it shows it's off too one side by 0.1mm or so. I put the spoke
wrench to it to get it back to acceptable trueness. I take it off the
stand again and repeat the spoke squeezing process again. I put it back
on the stand again and it's off again by the same margin but on the
opposite side from previously. Put the spoke wrench to it again and
repeated the process again. Again took the wheel off the stand and for
the third time did the spoke squeezing thing again. Put it back on the
stand and now the wheel is off by 0.1mm but yet again on the opposite
side from the last time. After about 6 times of this back and forth I
said the hell with it and surrendered. After the sixth time with the
stand I skipped the spoke squeezing step and put the wheel on the bike.
The process was like trying to make a four-legged table level by sawing
one leg at a time.

What was I doing wrong?

Worrying about 0.1mm? Seriously, though, I'll have to follow this thread
because I generally stop at "good enough" and am curious if I'll suffer
any ill consequences from not being as precise as I could.

Are you controlling for windup? (e.g. making a half turn and then backing
off to a quarter turn, or marking your spokes so that you can see the
windup)

If you're not controlling for windup, then maybe you're overtightening your
spokes. As soon as you squeeze the spokes, they unwind a bit and stay in a
loosened state.

"Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah I know the front wheel is supposed to be easy. My materials are as
follows: Alex Rim R400, DT 1.8/1.6 spokes, DT alloy nipples and a 32
hole Record hub. Lacing 3X. Last week this wheel practically collapsed
because I didn't finishe it with enough tension. My first repair
attempt was to just put it up on the truing stand and true it up with
more finishing tension. To my demise, I didn't zero it out first and
start from scratch, because even though I had a high tension the trued
wheel had uneven spoke tension. But anyway, went out on our Sunday club
ride. Typical ride with lots of climbing and gear mashing. Racing down
on one of the long descents and in my semi-aero position I eyed my
front wheel which was wobbling pretty bad. Damn it! I knew I should
have made sure the tension was uniform when I finished the repair. Got
home and this morning decided to completely despoke the wheel and
relace it. I also decided to replace the used alloy nipples with fresh
alloy nipples as the used ones were looking a little worst to wear.
Getting right to the point, after getting the wheel up to finishing
tension, I take it off the stand and begin squeezing the spokes in
pairs with my hands. I put it back on the stand to check its trueness
and it shows it's off too one side by 0.1mm or so. I put the spoke
wrench to it to get it back to acceptable trueness. I take it off the
stand again and repeat the spoke squeezing process again. I put it back
on the stand again and it's off again by the same margin but on the
opposite side from previously. Put the spoke wrench to it again and
repeated the process again. Again took the wheel off the stand and for
the third time did the spoke squeezing thing again. Put it back on the
stand and now the wheel is off by 0.1mm but yet again on the opposite
side from the last time. After about 6 times of this back and forth I
said the hell with it and surrendered. After the sixth time with the
stand I skipped the spoke squeezing step and put the wheel on the bike.
The process was like trying to make a four-legged table level by sawing
one leg at a time.

What was I doing wrong?

I am lazy myself, I consider .1 mm acceptable.
I would suggest dippeing the threaded end of each spoke in a little Linsseed
Oil, and put a small droplet of oil or linseed oil on each nipple where it
contacts the rim spoke holes.
I think you are experiencing windup in the spokes which is getting to you.

Kenny said:

Yeah I know the front wheel is supposed to be easy. My materials are as
follows: Alex Rim R400, DT 1.8/1.6 spokes, DT alloy nipples and a 32
hole Record hub. Lacing 3X. Last week this wheel practically collapsed
because I didn't finishe it with enough tension.

Why aluminum nipples? Especially after you say you replaced them
because they looked worse for wear. The tiny weight savings isn't
worth it. Use brass nipples.

Quoted message said:

Getting right to the point, after getting the wheel up to finishing
tension, I take it off the stand and begin squeezing the spokes in
pairs with my hands. I put it back on the stand to check its trueness
and it shows it's off too one side by 0.1mm or so. I put the spoke
wrench to it to get it back to acceptable trueness. I take it off the
stand again and repeat the spoke squeezing process again. I put it back
on the stand again and it's off again by the same margin but on the
opposite side from previously.

Do you really mean 0.1 mm? That's not worth worrying about, and
certainly won't cause a problem on the road.

Quoted message said:

What was I doing wrong?

As far as the 0.1 mm? Probably nothing. Are you measuring the dish with
the truing stand or a dishing tool? A dishing tool will be more
accurate. But in any case, even 0.5 mm of dish would be ok.

I'd be more concerned about the wheel almost collapsing due to low
tension. Some suggestions:

Make sure you lube the spoke threads and rim/nipple interface. Use
brass nipples. Be sure to get all wind-up out of the spokes. (Did you
hear pinging the first time you rode the wheel?)

Also, If the rim is not perfectly round to begin with, you'ill never
get even spoke tension.

Art Harris

Kenny said:

Yeah I know the front wheel is supposed to be easy. My materials are as
follows: Alex Rim R400, DT 1.8/1.6 spokes, DT alloy nipples and a 32
hole Record hub. Lacing 3X. Last week this wheel practically collapsed
because I didn't finishe it with enough tension. My first repair
attempt was to just put it up on the truing stand and true it up with
more finishing tension. To my demise, I didn't zero it out first and
start from scratch, because even though I had a high tension the trued
wheel had uneven spoke tension. But anyway, went out on our Sunday club
ride. Typical ride with lots of climbing and gear mashing. Racing down
on one of the long descents and in my semi-aero position I eyed my
front wheel which was wobbling pretty bad. Damn it! I knew I should
have made sure the tension was uniform when I finished the repair. Got
home and this morning decided to completely despoke the wheel and
relace it. I also decided to replace the used alloy nipples with fresh
alloy nipples as the used ones were looking a little worst to wear.
Getting right to the point, after getting the wheel up to finishing
tension, I take it off the stand and begin squeezing the spokes in
pairs with my hands. I put it back on the stand to check its trueness
and it shows it's off too one side by 0.1mm or so. I put the spoke
wrench to it to get it back to acceptable trueness. I take it off the
stand again and repeat the spoke squeezing process again. I put it back
on the stand again and it's off again by the same margin but on the
opposite side from previously. Put the spoke wrench to it again and
repeated the process again. Again took the wheel off the stand and for
the third time did the spoke squeezing thing again. Put it back on the
stand and now the wheel is off by 0.1mm but yet again on the opposite
side from the last time. After about 6 times of this back and forth I
said the hell with it and surrendered. After the sixth time with the
stand I skipped the spoke squeezing step and put the wheel on the bike.
The process was like trying to make a four-legged table level by sawing
one leg at a time.

What was I doing wrong?

Why are you squezzing the spokes each time? No need to 'stress relieve
more than once. I suspect you are putting windup into the spokes,
seeing that it is dished...taking the windup out and seeing that the
tension has changed, which will change the trueness, roundness, dish
and tension. use the turn nipple, then back the nipple off a wee
bit-technique.

Is the wheel round? The most common cause of uneven tension are wheels
that are not round, the toughest if the 4 variables to get correct.

I wouls also lose the alloy nipps, they do nuthin but as you have seen,
get torn up easily.

Art Harris said:

Kenny wrote:

Quoted message said:

Why aluminum nipples? Especially after you say you replaced them
because they looked worse for wear. The tiny weight savings isn't
worth it. Use brass nipples.

Weight winnie at heart.

Quoted message said:

Do you really mean 0.1 mm? That's not worth worrying about, and
certainly won't cause a problem on the road.

It was off by the width of this in the quotation marks " l ".

Quoted message said:

As far as the 0.1 mm? Probably nothing. Are you measuring the dish with
the truing stand or a dishing tool? A dishing tool will be more
accurate. But in any case, even 0.5 mm of dish would be ok.

Measuring with truing stand.

Quoted message said:

Make sure you lube the spoke threads and rim/nipple interface. Use
brass nipples. Be sure to get all wind-up out of the spokes. (Did you
hear pinging the first time you rode the wheel?)

Spoke threads were lubed with grease.

Quoted message said:

Also, If the rim is not perfectly round to begin with, you'ill never
get even spoke tension.

The rim does have a roundness problem. It has an indention that is
about an inch in length. It shows up as a blip of about 3mm when the
wheel is spun on the stand.

Kenny

Kenny said:

Yeah I know the front wheel is supposed to be easy. My materials are as
follows: Alex Rim R400, DT 1.8/1.6 spokes, DT alloy nipples and a 32
hole Record hub. Lacing 3X. Last week this wheel practically collapsed
because I didn't finishe it with enough tension. My first repair
attempt was to just put it up on the truing stand and true it up with
more finishing tension. To my demise, I didn't zero it out first and
start from scratch, because even though I had a high tension the trued
wheel had uneven spoke tension. But anyway, went out on our Sunday club
ride. Typical ride with lots of climbing and gear mashing. Racing down
on one of the long descents and in my semi-aero position I eyed my
front wheel which was wobbling pretty bad. Damn it! I knew I should
have made sure the tension was uniform when I finished the repair. Got
home and this morning decided to completely despoke the wheel and
relace it. I also decided to replace the used alloy nipples with fresh
alloy nipples as the used ones were looking a little worst to wear.
Getting right to the point, after getting the wheel up to finishing
tension, I take it off the stand and begin squeezing the spokes in
pairs with my hands. I put it back on the stand to check its trueness
and it shows it's off too one side by 0.1mm or so. I put the spoke
wrench to it to get it back to acceptable trueness. I take it off the
stand again and repeat the spoke squeezing process again. I put it back
on the stand again and it's off again by the same margin but on the
opposite side from previously. Put the spoke wrench to it again and
repeated the process again. Again took the wheel off the stand and for
the third time did the spoke squeezing thing again. Put it back on the
stand and now the wheel is off by 0.1mm but yet again on the opposite
side from the last time. After about 6 times of this back and forth I
said the hell with it and surrendered. After the sixth time with the
stand I skipped the spoke squeezing step and put the wheel on the bike.
The process was like trying to make a four-legged table level by sawing
one leg at a time.

What was I doing wrong?

Make sure you have even and proper tension with the spoke wind up removed. If you can't get even tension with the rim being true, then there is a problem with the rim. .1 mm is within reasonable tolerance. If you are centering the wheel with 1/4 turn per nipple/side you will likely find the movement around .2 mm laterally.... meaning you weren't doing anything wrong.
If the rim was plastically deformed it may be difficult to get it straight and round again... and impossible to do with just spoke tension and arriving at a tension balance too.
Lubricating spoke threads and nipple/rim seats is important ... especially with soft aluminum nipples.
How are you measuring the spoke tension?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kenny said:

What was I doing wrong?

Being obsessive. 0.1 mm is acceptable. More than acceptable. I don't
worry about lateral trueness or roundness smaller than 0.5 mm. I can't
notice it while riding my bike.

Don't worry about perfect. You'll make yourself nuts.

Kenny said:

Art Harris said:

Kenny wrote:

Quoted message said:

Why aluminum nipples? Especially after you say you replaced them
because they looked worse for wear. The tiny weight savings isn't
worth it. Use brass nipples.

Weight winnie at heart.

So am I, but it still didn't take me long to give up on alloy nipples.

Kenny said:

What was I doing wrong?

As others have mentioned, 0.1mm is a very tiny amount of lateral
out-of-true. I'd be more concerned about the 30 times greater radial
deflection.

Since your spokes are rather thin, windup will be significant unless
you are compensating for it (overshoot then back off a bit) when
tensioning. Unwinding of spokes after the fact is best accomplished by
setting the axle on a rigid surface and pressing down on opposite sides
of the rim with your hands, as this will detension the spokes on the
bottom enough to allow them to unwind.

daveornee said:

Lubricating spoke threads and nipple/rim seats is important ...
especially with soft aluminum nipples.
How are you measuring the spoke tension?

Since you are a pro at this Dave, I'm wondering if you've found a lube
or method with aluminum nipples that helps them last...? Also, are some
aluminum nipples better than others?

Kenny said:

Art Harris said:

Kenny wrote:

Quoted message said:

Why aluminum nipples? Especially after you say you replaced them
because they looked worse for wear. The tiny weight savings isn't
worth it. Use brass nipples.

Weight winnie at heart.

Quoted message said:

Do you really mean 0.1 mm? That's not worth worrying about, and
certainly won't cause a problem on the road.

It was off by the width of this in the quotation marks " l ".

Quoted message said:

As far as the 0.1 mm? Probably nothing. Are you measuring the dish with
the truing stand or a dishing tool? A dishing tool will be more
accurate. But in any case, even 0.5 mm of dish would be ok.

Measuring with truing stand.

Quoted message said:

Make sure you lube the spoke threads and rim/nipple interface. Use
brass nipples. Be sure to get all wind-up out of the spokes. (Did you
hear pinging the first time you rode the wheel?)

Spoke threads were lubed with grease.

Quoted message said:

Also, If the rim is not perfectly round to begin with, you'ill never
get even spoke tension.

The rim does have a roundness problem. It has an indention that is
about an inch in length. It shows up as a blip of about 3mm when the
wheel is spun on the stand.

I can think of no circumstances where I could discern a .1mm wobble,
but even on rough roads I could easily feel a 3mm deep flat spot.

To me .1mm seems way beyond any necessary level of precision. I
wouldn't think it was even possible for something like a bike wheel to
be consistently as true as that having to bear the loads they do. No
reason not to try to get more precision if you feel like it, but it is
certainly well within limits of "very true" if you ask me.

Joseph

Ron Ruff said:

daveornee said:

Lubricating spoke threads and nipple/rim seats is important ...
especially with soft aluminum nipples.
How are you measuring the spoke tension?

Since you are a pro at this Dave, I'm wondering if you've found a lube
or method with aluminum nipples that helps them last...?

Every 3 months remove each nipple and relube.

Quoted message said:

Also, are some aluminum nipples better than others?

Not in my experience.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

G.T. said:

Every 3 months remove each nipple and relube.

I bet that would help! But I'm wondering if a lube exists that would
extend the "service interval" to 3 years or so...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, are some aluminum nipples better than others?

Not in my experience.

What has your experience been with these? And which brands?

Ron Ruff said:

G.T. said:

Every 3 months remove each nipple and relube.

I bet that would help! But I'm wondering if a lube exists that would
extend the "service interval" to 3 years or so...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, are some aluminum nipples better than others?

Not in my experience.

What has your experience been with these? And which brands?

In the short term DT aluminum nipples were less likely to round for me,
I've used DT, Wheelsmith, and unidentifiable really cheap nipples that
came on OEM wheels.

In the long term every aluminum nipple that I've used has eventually
seized to the spoke and in many cases exploded at some point. The long
term failures are on wheels that didn't get ridden enough to wear out
the rims before the spokes seized.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

G.T. said:

In the long term every aluminum nipple that I've used has eventually
seized to the spoke and in many cases exploded at some point. The long
term failures are on wheels that didn't get ridden enough to wear out
the rims before the spokes seized.

Thanks for the info. Did you notice any seizing or corrosion at the
rim/ nipple interface? Also, when they explode what part of nipple
breaks?

Ron Ruff said:

G.T. said:

In the long term every aluminum nipple that I've used has eventually
seized to the spoke and in many cases exploded at some point. The long
term failures are on wheels that didn't get ridden enough to wear out
the rims before the spokes seized.

Thanks for the info. Did you notice any seizing or corrosion at the
rim/ nipple interface?

No, not at the rim/nipple interface. I seem to recall light gray
corrosion at the nipple/spoke interface, though.

Quoted message said:

Also, when they explode what part of nipple breaks?

Good question. It was too hard to determine how exactly they popped. I
assumed that they split lengthwise into 2 or 3 different chunks. There
was nothing left on the spoke and I don't recall what was left in the
socket. It's been years since I replaced all my aluminum nipples except
for one front wheel. All the nipples that exploded were on 2 different
rear wheels, one an 8 year old MA-2, and the other a 4 year old X517.
The MA-2 (26" version) front wheel that currently still has aluminum
nipples in it I only use on rollers because I'm not interested in
replacing the nipples. I no longer need to ride on the road with a
narrow 26" wheel.

Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

G.T. said:

Ron Ruff said:

I'm wondering if you've found a lube
or method with aluminum nipples that helps them last...?

Every 3 months remove each nipple and relube.

I hope you're being facetious. I can't imagine anyone actually doing
this as standard maintenance.

Art Harris

Art Harris said:

G.T. said:

Ron Ruff said:

I'm wondering if you've found a lube
or method with aluminum nipples that helps them last...?

Every 3 months remove each nipple and relube.

I hope you're being facetious. I can't imagine anyone actually doing
this as standard maintenance.

That's what I would suggest. I would never do it, I switched away from
aluminum nipples long ago.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

quote='Ron Ruff'daveornee said:

Lubricating spoke threads and nipple/rim seats is important ...
especially with soft aluminum nipples.
How are you measuring the spoke tension?

Since you are a pro at this Dave, I'm wondering if you've found a lube
or method with aluminum nipples that helps them last...? Also, are some
aluminum nipples better than others?[/QUOTE]
I rarely use aluminum nipples.
When I do I use Sapim Polyax.
I use Dupont Krytox (teflon bearing grease that I use on my S & S couplers) on threads and nipple/rim seats.
Handle nipples with care so not to damage any factory coating. I use DT spoke tool that grips 3 of the 4 corners.
Ultimately they will fail, depending on electrolysis/corrosion. If you run them up each spoke before use to make sure there is no binding in the threads and make sure the eyelet area is smooth and well coated with lubicant that can help any nipple including brass ones that I normally use.
If you need to save those last few grams there are other ways that are much easier to attain.