Tri vs. Road

"RichardP67" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

What's the difference between a Triathlon and a Road bike??

A Triathlon is an event. A road bike is a vehicle.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"RichardP67" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

What's the difference between a Triathlon and a Road bike??

Ideally a triathlon bike's design, while similar to a road bike's, will maximize aero aspects at the
expense of other features since sustained high speeds are anticipated. Nowadays, tri bikes will have
a more forward seat postion for use with aero bars and frequently smaller wheels which have a lower
aero profile.

You can do a tri on a road bike better than you could do a road race on a tri bike.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Richard-<< What's the difference between a Triathlon and a Road bike??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Generally speaking, the tri framest has a steeper seattube so that when you place your knee in the
proper place, you can reach tri bars, which extend farther than the controls out front.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It used to be thought this was more efficient aerodynamically as well, but that turns out not to be
the case; Cobb, the guy in Louisiana who's well known for aero testing on various positions, has
found that you're actually more aerodynamic with a conventional seat tube angle (which is why
Lance's TT bike has pretty relaxed dimensions, well within the UCI regulations that prohibit
extreme forward seat positions).

Thats an interesting point. Lance Armstrong looked distinctly less aerodynamic than Ullrich in the
time trials in the TdF. It's easy to accept that if your back is "horizontal" you may well be even
more aero when sat further back, trouble is that this is more difficult to acheive. Does Cobb find
that you are more aero sat back with your back tilted up like Lance Armstrong?

Andrew Bradley

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Richard-<< What's the difference between a Triathlon and a Road bike??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Generally speaking, the tri framest has a steeper seattube so that when you place your knee in the
proper place, you can reach tri bars, which extend farther than the controls out front.

You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place?

Andrew Bradley

Quoted message said:

You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place?

Usually, it's below your thigh. :>😉

More seriously, many in the tri-crowd like to have their seats pushed forward to save their
hamstrings for the run. So, for *them*, the proper knee place is way-forward, and if you adopt this
position on a normal road bike, you've just eaten up a whole lot of top-tube length and find
yourself hanging over the front end of the bike.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"Andrew Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Richard-<< What's the difference between a Triathlon and a Road bike??

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

Generally speaking, the tri framest has a steeper seattube so that when

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

place your knee in the proper place, you can reach tri bars, which

extend

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

farther than the controls out front.

You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place?

Andrew Bradley

Quoted message said:

Does Cobb find that you are more aero sat back with your back tilted up like Lance Armstrong?

Best to go to his website for the answers-

bicyclesports.comtechOpen ↗

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

Quoted message said:

You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place?

Usually, it's below your thigh. :>😉

More seriously, many in the tri-crowd like to have their seats pushed forward to save their
hamstrings for the run. So, for *them*, the proper knee place is way-forward, and if you adopt this
position on a normal road bike, you've just eaten up a whole lot of top-tube length and find
yourself hanging over the front end of the bike.

The simplistic way I've always looked at it is, when you're going hammer and tongs on your road
bike, you end up perched way up on the nose of the saddle. A steep seat tube'd TT/Tri bike simply
moves the saddle back up under your butt.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does Cobb find that you are more aero sat back with your back tilted up like Lance Armstrong?

Best to go to his website for the answers-

bicyclesports.comtechOpen ↗

More detail here: bicyclesports.comdisplay.aspxOpen ↗

I like the diagram on "how to sit on a bike". The first picture looks most like Lance's position.

The suggestion to move the saddle nose 1/2" to either side is a bit baffling. There's no
explanation. Can anyone provide one?

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does Cobb find that you are more aero sat back with your back tilted up like Lance Armstrong?

Best to go to his website for the answers-

bicyclesports.comtechOpen ↗

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

Correction, that 1/2" is supposed to be 1/2 saddle nose width or 5 degrees off center (probably
about 1/2"😉.

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

"Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

More detail here: bicyclesports.comdisplay.aspxOpen ↗

I like the diagram on "how to sit on a bike". The first picture looks

most

Quoted message said:

like Lance's position.

The suggestion to move the saddle nose 1/2" to either side is a bit baffling. There's no
explanation. Can anyone provide one?

I saw something about that somewhere related to male anatomy (turning saddle slightly away from side
to which one "dresses"😉, but this specifically says it applies to men AND women.

I'm curious, too.

Bill "are these tri-specific recommendations?" S.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does Cobb find that you are more aero sat back with your back tilted up like Lance Armstrong?

Best to go to his website for the answers-

bicyclesports.comtechOpen ↗

Can't say I managed to find many the answers on there.

Andrew Bradley

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place?

Usually, it's below your thigh. :>😉

More seriously, many in the tri-crowd like to have their seats pushed forward to save their
hamstrings for the run. So, for *them*, the proper knee place is way-forward, and if you adopt
this position on a normal road bike, you've just eaten up a whole lot of top-tube length and find
yourself hanging over the front end of the bike.

I thought Peter was a KOPS man, which was why I asked.

Andrew Bradley

In article <[email hidden]>, Andrew Bradley

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It used to be thought this was more efficient aerodynamically as well, but that turns out not to
be the case; Cobb, the guy in Louisiana who's well known for aero testing on various positions,
has found that you're actually more aerodynamic with a conventional seat tube angle (which is why
Lance's TT bike has pretty relaxed dimensions, well within the UCI regulations that prohibit
extreme forward seat positions).

Thats an interesting point. Lance Armstrong looked distinctly less aerodynamic than Ullrich in the
time trials in the TdF. It's easy to accept that if your back is "horizontal" you may well be even
more aero when sat further back, trouble is that this is more difficult to acheive. Does Cobb find
that you are more aero sat back with your back tilted up like Lance Armstrong?

This is the problem with assuming an aerodynamic result from the appearance of a rider and their
equipment. A lot of bicycle equipment is sold on that basis as well (looks aero) but when you
actually start testing a specific person on a specific bicycle you get all manner of unexpected
results, and the results are extremely specific to the individual rider, position, and equipment. I
think this illustrates that most people can't assemble all the variables in their head just by
looking at it. Personally I assume that any aspect of Armstrong's TT position and equipment is
probably highly optimized already, and apparent contradictions are either not what they seem or are
necessary compromises in favor of comfort or power output - he does have to ride the bike after all,
not just sit on it in a wind tunnel.

--Paul

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

It used to be thought this was more efficient aerodynamically as well, but that turns

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not to be the case; Cobb, the guy in Louisiana who's well known for

aero

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

testing on various positions, has found that you're actually more aerodynamic with a
conventional seat tube angle

This isn't correct. What John claims is that, by paying very careful attention to the details (and
with the aid of wind tunnel testing), you can be *nearly* as aero sitting further back and a little
bit higher, vs. sitting forward and lower. But Boardmanesque positions still generate the least
amount of drag...

Andy Coggan

Quoted message said:

This isn't correct. What John claims is that, by paying very careful attention to the details (and
with the aid of wind tunnel testing), you

can

Quoted message said:

be *nearly* as aero sitting further back and a little bit higher, vs. sitting forward and lower.
But Boardmanesque positions still generate the least amount of drag...

So it then comes down to more efficient due to increased power output with the seat further back?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>It used to be thought this was more efficient aerodynamically as well, but that

turns

Quoted message said:

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> not to be the case; Cobb, the guy in Louisiana who's well known for

aero

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> testing on various positions, has found that you're actually more aerodynamic with a
> conventional seat tube angle

This isn't correct. What John claims is that, by paying very careful attention to the details (and
with the aid of wind tunnel testing), you

can

Quoted message said:

be *nearly* as aero sitting further back and a little bit higher, vs. sitting forward and lower.
But Boardmanesque positions still generate the least amount of drag...

Andy Coggan

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) said:

andbrad-<< You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place? >><BR><BR>

Again generally speaking, this stuff isn't etched in stone. You want to have your knee about over
the pedal spindle when the crank arm is forward on each side, Assuming proper seat height. by
making the seat tube steeper, you do have to move the saddle back to get KOPS, but effectively
shortens the top tube, allowing you reach the tri bars.

Shouldn't that be "effectively LENGTHENS the top tube, making it more difficult to reach the
tri bars"?

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

andbrad-<< You've lost me there. Where's the proper knee place? >><BR><BR>

Again generally speaking, this stuff isn't etched in stone. You want to have your knee about over
the pedal spindle when the crank arm is forward on each side, Assuming proper seat height. by
making the seat tube steeper, you do have to move the saddle back to get KOPS, but effectively
shortens the top tube, allowing you reach the tri bars.

KOPS on a tri bike rather defeats the object, no?

Andrew Bradley

Mark Hickey said:

The simplistic way I've always looked at it is, when you're going hammer and tongs on your road
bike, you end up perched way up on the nose of the saddle. A steep seat tube'd TT/Tri bike simply
moves the saddle back up under your butt.

I think it depends on what you mean by "hammer and tongues". I don't slide forward because I don't
over rev and have easily enough weight over the pedals to turn the gears I use.

I reckon people that like to spin fast often cheat by sliding forward, reducing effective seat
height and thus muscle leverage, effectively raising the gear they are turning and avoiding the full
increase in muscle contraction speeds those extra RPM entail.

The objective of spinning being to attain certain muscle-contraction speeds, a slide forward seems
counter productive to me.

Another spin cheat, for similar reasons, is to point your toes down - and guess which famous spinner
does that.

Andrew Bradley