General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Treadmill vs track running

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
7 June 2005
Last activity
8 June 2005
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Andy Turner
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  1. Someone once told me that it's harder to run a given distance on a
    treadmill than it is on an open track. This is because you can't take
    as long strides as you probably otherwise would on a track. Is this
    really true, anyone have any experience? I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    I'm just preparing for a 5km run by using a treadmill. I guess I
    should try it on a track somewhere, but that seems to be easier said
    than done.

    Cheers

    andyt

  2. Andy Turner said:


    Someone once told me that it's harder to run a given distance on a
    treadmill than it is on an open track. This is because you can't take
    as long strides as you probably otherwise would on a track. Is this
    really true, anyone have any experience?

    Unless you're doing an all-out time trial effort, it's not really true. It's
    true that it's hard to set a distance PR on the treadmill, but not true that
    it's harder to do an easy run. However, note that gym temperature combined with
    a lack of airflow could make heat an issue.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just sort
    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel yourself".

    If you stand still while on the treadmill, you'll see that the "floor" does
    indeed "move along for you" (just like the surface of the earth) -- but unless
    you "propel yourself", you will move with it (again, just like the surface of
    the earth).

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  3. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just sort
    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel yourself".

    If you stand still while on the treadmill, you'll see that the "floor" does
    indeed "move along for you" (just like the surface of the earth) -- but unless
    you "propel yourself", you will move with it (again, just like the surface of
    the earth).

    Hmmm, I don't know about that. Seems to me that there's a difference
    between moving one's mass, as on the road, and leaving that mass
    stationary while moving one's feet below; more effort would be
    required in the former. (I'm imagining, for comparison's sake, a
    treadmill with a very loose belt but no motor, and running on it,
    supplying the motive force for the belt, vs. having the motor move the
    belt for me.) But I'm no physicist and not much of a physiologist, so
    take that for what it's worth.

    --
    Brian P. Baresch
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Professional editing and proofreading

    If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

  4. Yes Andy, a mile in your mobile home is farther than a mile at the
    track.

  5. Brian Baresch said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just sort
    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel yourself".

    If you stand still while on the treadmill, you'll see that the "floor" does
    indeed "move along for you" (just like the surface of the earth) -- but unless
    you "propel yourself", you will move with it (again, just like the surface of
    the earth).

    Hmmm, I don't know about that. Seems to me that there's a difference
    between moving one's mass, as on the road,

    Not true, that's a common misconception.

    If the earth is rotating in the opposite direction to that in which you're
    running, then is it not the case that you're "leaving that mass stationary" ?
    Or at least, not moving backwards as fast ?

    The only substantial difference is that most of the external environment, like
    the floor of the gym, the treadmill display, etc are not moving in relation
    to each other, which creates the illusion that you're "stationary", and the
    belt is "moving under you".

    But the gym surroundings -- the floor, the roof, the
    doors, etc, are not relevant to the physics of running on the treadmill. The
    only interaction (besides surrounding air) is between you and the treadmill
    belt. So it doesn't matter whether you or the treadmill belt is "really moving"
    (whatever that means). The fact that the setting makes you think you're "not
    really moving" is a red herring, a confusing distractor.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  6. Quoted message said:

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just sort


    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    yourself".>

    You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.
    Try running on it while it's unplugged. Does that take the same effort?
    Of course not.

  7. Quoted message said:

    I'm just preparing for a 5km run by using a treadmill. I guess I


    should try it on a track somewhere, but that seems to be easier said
    than done.>

    I agree. Even if you go to all that trouble of hauling your treadmill
    out to the track, the college kids slap you in the back of the head as
    they go by, make fun of you, and challenge you to catch them. At least
    that was my experience...

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Brian Baresch said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just sort
    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel yourself".

    If you stand still while on the treadmill, you'll see that the "floor" does
    indeed "move along for you" (just like the surface of the earth) -- but unless
    you "propel yourself", you will move with it (again, just like the surface of
    the earth).

    Hmmm, I don't know about that. Seems to me that there's a difference
    between moving one's mass, as on the road, and leaving that mass
    stationary while moving one's feet below; more effort would be
    required in the former. (I'm imagining, for comparison's sake, a
    treadmill with a very loose belt but no motor, and running on it,
    supplying the motive force for the belt, vs. having the motor move the
    belt for me.) But I'm no physicist and not much of a physiologist, so
    take that for what it's worth.

    If you're running in good form, the treadmill and ground are very
    nearly equivalent. The difference is up at your torso -- running on
    ground, you have to shove the atmosphere out of the way of your torso.

    Consider running at a steady pace (treadmill or ground). Your arms
    swing back and forth at their cadence, which is the same for either
    surface. Air resistence (for calm day) to this motion is the same
    either way. You have some bouncing in your stride, center of mass going
    up and down a little, but that's the same between treadmill and ground.
    The landing forces/bounce are fairly similar between a rubberized track
    and a treadmill (treadmill is probably more forgiving, returning more
    landing energy, than asphalt or concrete, but pretty close to rubberized
    track or grass/dirt).

    Last thing to look at is the feet/legs in their swinging (landing's
    already taken care of). Take your measurements from the hip joint
    (center of mass). Running steadily along the ground, in good form,
    your foot touches down moving backwards at precisely your running (forward
    speed) for a net speed of 0. The touchdown neither slows you down,
    nor speeds you up. You're running easily and steadily. Move to treadmill.
    Your foot touches down moving backwards at precisely your running (treadmill
    belt's) speed, for a net, again, of 0 between foot and surface. Your
    touchdown neither speeds up nor slows down the treadmill belt.

    For this reason, I use the treadmill or logrolling as a mental
    illustration of what good form feels like, and if on a treadmill,
    pay attention to whether I'm pushing or dragging the belt. In good
    form, I'm cruising along steadily, the ground unrolling below me
    as I relax and let the legs and arms do their nice, relaxed, efficient
    swing back and forth.

    Back to the original question ... treadmill is not the same as
    outdoor running. There is the wind resistence difference, and the
    slopes and bounciness of the surface. You also may run in to problems
    with the treadmill for swinging your arms as you naturally do outside.
    Perhaps the biggest practical difference is that on a treadmill, you
    run an almost exactly steady pace and few people do that naturally outside.
    This can be an advantage, or a disadvantage. Depends on the person and
    what you're trying to do. It's generally better to race at a steady
    pace.

    --
    Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
    Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
    evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
    would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

  9. Then try unplugging your treadmill, and get back to me.

  10. "Andy Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Someone once told me that it's harder to run a given distance on a
    treadmill than it is on an open track. This is because you can't take
    as long strides as you probably otherwise would on a track. Is this
    really true, anyone have any experience? I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    I'm just preparing for a 5km run by using a treadmill. I guess I
    should try it on a track somewhere, but that seems to be easier said
    than done.

    Yes, in theory a treadmill is easier than outdoors because there is no
    wind resistance. If you're running on a treadmill deck that cramps your
    stride, you either have an inefficiently long stride, too short of a
    treadmill, or aren't comfortable on it yet.
    In practice, the treadmill deck flexes by design, which increases runner
    effort because more effort goes into supporting your body weight. The air
    flow usually makes treadmill running hotter and slows your performance some.
    The friction between the belt and deck is another energy loss.
    So ignoring the effects of trying to run a PR at a machine-regulated
    pace, the treadmill is indeed slower. I definitely find the heat and deck
    flex to greatly increase the effort. However, I do like running speed
    intervals on a treadmill during the off-season when I can benefit from the
    perfectly regulated pace - before my body is well-adjusted to finding the
    correct pace and maintaining it.
    But it's useful if you can remain motivated to run on one - I believe
    Bruce ??, the coach at Boston U, used to equate the effort of running a
    14:00 5k on the track to treadmill running a 15:34 5k (5:00/mile, 12mph) at
    maximum incline. (I'm pretty sure he did this since you can't easily find
    treadmills that go faster than 12mph).

    Dave

  11. [email hidden] wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just


    sort

    Quoted message said:

    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    yourself".>

    You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.
    Try running on it while it's unplugged. Does that take the same effort?
    Of course not.

    Another thing is incline. "Climbing" on an inclined treadmill is far
    different from climbing an actual hill, when running or walking, though it
    may help train the muscles similarly.

    -Tony

  12. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just sort


    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    yourself".>

    You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.

    But why on earth would you want to push the belt behind you ? I thought the
    comparison was between running on the treadmill and running outdoors, not
    running on the treadmill versus propelling the belt.

    Quoted message said:

    Try running on it while it's unplugged.

    You're a very silly man.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  13. Tony said:

    [email hidden] wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it just


    sort

    Quoted message said:

    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    yourself".>

    You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.
    Try running on it while it's unplugged. Does that take the same effort?
    Of course not.

    Another thing is incline. "Climbing" on an inclined treadmill is far
    different from climbing an actual hill, when running or walking, though it
    may help train the muscles similarly.

    How is it different ?

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  14. Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:

    [email hidden] wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    >Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it


    just

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    sort

    Quoted message said:

    of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    yourself".>

    You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.
    Try running on it while it's unplugged. Does that take the same effort?
    Of course not.

    Another thing is incline. "Climbing" on an inclined treadmill is far
    different from climbing an actual hill, when running or walking, though


    it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    may help train the muscles similarly.

    How is it different ?

    It's different because when you run uphill, you raise your body mass
    vertically. On a treadmill your body mass doesn't move substantially. While
    your legs move and adjust to the incline, your torso remains stationary.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  15. Quoted message said:

    It's different because when you run uphill, you raise your body mass


    vertically. On a treadmill your body mass doesn't move substantially.
    While
    your legs move and adjust to the incline, your torso remains
    stationary.

    Moron. On the treadmill, you are stepping up incrementally, over and
    over; but the belt takes you back down incrementally, over and over.
    The mere fact that the belt is doing this does not alter what YOU are
    doing, over and over. Your argument is tantamount to saying that you
    do no work if you run up the down escalator in a department store. Go
    back to school.

  16. Tony said:

    Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:

    [email hidden] wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>...
    >>Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it


    just

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    sort
    >of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    >yourself".>
    >
    >You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    >motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    >takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.
    >Try running on it while it's unplugged. Does that take the same effort?
    >Of course not.

    Another thing is incline. "Climbing" on an inclined treadmill is far
    different from climbing an actual hill, when running or walking, though


    it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    may help train the muscles similarly.

    How is it different ?

    It's different because when you run uphill, you raise your body mass
    vertically. On a treadmill your body mass doesn't move substantially. While
    your legs move and adjust to the incline, your torso remains stationary.

    This is not correct.

    The treadmill belt is moving downward at constant velocity. So you're running
    with respect to a frame of reference that's not only moving backward, but also
    downward. The way gravity acts in this new frame of reference is unaffected --
    because this new frame of reference is moving, but not accelerating, so
    gravitational acceleration in this new frame of reference is the same, 9.8m/s2.

    In other words, the work you're doing is much the same as it is outdoors,
    because the main players -- your body, the running surface, and gravity are
    playing the same roles. The only difference is your rate of movement compared
    to that of your immediate surroundings (but this has no bearing on energy costs
    or the dynamics of the movement aside from differences in airflow)

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  17. Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony said:

    Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...

    Quoted message said:

    On 2005-06-07, Tony <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > [email hidden] wrote in message
    ><[email hidden]>...
    >>>Nonsense. That's like saying that because the earth is revolving, it


    just

    Quoted message said:

    > sort
    >>of "moves the surface along for you", and "you don't have to propel
    >>yourself".>
    >>
    >>You're wrong on this Donovan. Motorized treadmills (mine is not
    >>motorized) propel the belt, and you are just keeping up with it. This
    >>takes FAR less effort than pushing the belt behind you as mine does.
    >>Try running on it while it's unplugged. Does that take the same effort?
    >>Of course not.
    >
    > Another thing is incline. "Climbing" on an inclined treadmill is far
    > different from climbing an actual hill, when running or walking, though


    it

    Quoted message said:

    > may help train the muscles similarly.

    How is it different ?

    It's different because when you run uphill, you raise your body mass
    vertically. On a treadmill your body mass doesn't move substantially.


    While

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    your legs move and adjust to the incline, your torso remains stationary.

    This is not correct.

    The treadmill belt is moving downward at constant velocity. So you're


    running

    Quoted message said:

    with respect to a frame of reference that's not only moving backward, but


    also

    Quoted message said:

    downward. The way gravity acts in this new frame of reference is


    unaffected --

    Quoted message said:

    because this new frame of reference is moving, but not accelerating, so
    gravitational acceleration in this new frame of reference is the same,


    9.8m/s2.

    Quoted message said:


    In other words, the work you're doing is much the same as it is outdoors,
    because the main players -- your body, the running surface, and gravity are
    playing the same roles. The only difference is your rate of movement


    compared

    Quoted message said:

    to that of your immediate surroundings (but this has no bearing on energy


    costs

    Quoted message said:

    or the dynamics of the movement aside from differences in airflow)

    Maybe you're correct. I just know that when you run uphill outside, you gain
    potential energy by moving your mass higher up with each step. If you watch
    someone run on an incline treadmill, their torso does not usually move up
    and down - the legs adjust to the movement. Thus, you do raise each leg
    higher and then each leg releases down, but you don't raise the torso. After
    an incline run on the treadmill, you can't run downhill. While the leg mass
    energy is raised and lowered with each stride, the torso mass is not.

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  18. Quoted message said:

    Maybe you're correct.

    Understatement of the year award.

  19. Tony said:

    Maybe you're correct. I just know that when you run uphill outside, you gain
    potential energy by moving your mass higher up with each step.

    Potential energy is a way to describe state with respect to your
    surrounding environment, not the energy cost of the movement.

    Your confusion here is again a result of the fact that you're
    distracted by the external environment of the treadmill. Try
    really hard to block everything else out, and just look at
    the treadmill belt, you and gravity. For example, imagine that
    you're on an infinitely long treadmill belt. When you're running
    along it, you gain "potential energy" in the sense that the
    starting point of the belt is at a lower energy level (further downhill)
    than your current point.

    But you don't see this, because you're hung up on the WRONG notion
    that the external environment is "stationary" whereas the treadmill
    belt is "really moving".

    Quoted message said:

    If you watch someone run on an incline treadmill, their torso does not
    usually move up and down -

    No more or no less so than when you're running up a hill, or on flat. Actually,
    if you are running, your center of mass has to move up and down, because gravity
    will accelerate any mass that is not otherwise anchored.

    Quoted message said:

    the legs adjust to the movement. Thus, you do raise each leg
    higher and then each leg releases down, but you don't raise the torso. After

    Sorry, not true at all. It's no different to running off a treadmill. In both
    settings, gravity accelerates your center of mass downward, and you need to
    interrupt that movement on landing, and then re-accelerate upward on toe-off.
    The only difference is that the whole picture is shifted by a constant velocity
    when you're on a treadmill (you are accelerated to a greater downward velocity,
    and a lower upward velocity resulting in zero net climb), but the accelerations,
    *hence, the forces, hence the energy cost and power outputs* are the same.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  20. "Andy Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Someone once told me that it's harder to run a given distance on a
    treadmill than it is on an open track. This is because you can't take
    as long strides as you probably otherwise would on a track. Is this
    really true, anyone have any experience? I'd have thought that a
    treadmill was easier because it moves the 'floor' along for you, you
    don't have to propel yourself.

    I'm just preparing for a 5km run by using a treadmill. I guess I
    should try it on a track somewhere, but that seems to be easier said
    than done.

    Cheers

    andyt

    I ran on a treadmill in the beginning because it was too cold (for my
    comfort), too hot, or rainy for my taste. Yes, I know, many of you run in
    those conditions regardless and now I have too. But I didn't always.

    I found the treadmills workouts were valuable. I got more speed when I did
    actually go outside for a run and the constant feedback on distance and
    speed and time on a treadmill actually made goal setting easier for me. I
    can do that running on a track or road too, but I don't have a fancy watch
    that does all that and was limited to known courses with clocked distances.

    I think treadmills are a little harder on my knees that grass and maybe the
    same as asphalt. But the conveniences of having a magazine stand, a
    television set, air conditioning or heat, make the treadmill an attractive
    alternative for me. Now that its summer I am enjoying some outdoor runs,
    but I imagine I will be back on the 'mill as weather grows worse in fall and
    winter.

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