Treading the Power waters....

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Hi...

I'm new to the forum, and only, slightly that is, less new to riding (say 3 months).

I've become convinced of the benefits of power training, both from all the material here as well as firsthand experience with HRM training and its inherent limitations. My short-term goals are obviously all-around improvement, whereas long-term I'd like to try racing, say women's category 4-5.

So now the good part...

Decided on a PT over the polar. Also pondered the iBike unit, but figure if I'm going to drop several hundred (if not an outright $1k) on something, it might as well be the best I can afford as well as get instant feedback on all types of terrain.

I know that the PT needs to be built into a wheel, so a new wheel seems like a given. Suppose I bought this:

all3sports.comproduct info.phpOpen ↗

With that in mind, would it basically be a matter of connecting the system (computer, cadence sensor, wires, etc), or is there something else? Also I have a 10 speed ultegra cassette - which I would like to use with the new wheel if possible - will it work? Or does it only work with 8 or 9 speed cassettes?

Thanks~!

Lucy,

Good Luck in your quest for more power...

That is exactly the unit that I have and it is fantastic. All3Sports did a great job of building it and shipping it to me.

Not a problem with Shimano 10 spd...

You will have everything you need to begin, though I would suggest you think about CyclingPeaks software. cyclingpeakssoftware.comcyclingpeakssoftware.comOpen ↗

You just can not beat it for the ability to analyze the power files and help you plan your racing season.

Make sure you peruse this fantastic board, also, as there are very knowledgeable people and great threads...

Jim

otb4evr said:

Lucy,

Good Luck in your quest for more power...

That is exactly the unit that I have and it is fantastic. All3Sports did a great job of building it and shipping it to me.

Not a problem with Shimano 10 spd...

You will have everything you need to begin, though I would suggest you think about CyclingPeaks software. cyclingpeakssoftware.comcyclingpeakssoftware.comOpen ↗

You just can not beat it for the ability to analyze the power files and help you plan your racing season.

Make sure you peruse this fantastic board, also, as there are very knowledgeable people and great threads...

Jim

Hi Jim 🙂

Thank you for your response and the suggestion. Obviously, power data is going to be as useful as the software you have. I've heard of cyclingpeaks before so I imagine it is highly regarded.

I admit I'm not the most mechanically inclined person, ok that's an understatement! Still, if all I'd have to do was drop the new wheel in place, put on my current cassette, connect the wires and the computer - then it wouldn't be too bad for my limited abilities 😄

I have a rough idea of what power* I can make over say, a 13.5 mile 5.2% climb here - and yes it is poor, but improving. Still the precision of a real unit is far too powerful to pass up for me.

* - thanks to analyticcyling.com of course 🙂

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Hi Jim 🙂

I have a rough idea of what power* I can make over say, a 13.5 mile 5.2% climb here - and yes it is poor, but improving. Still the precision of a real unit is far too powerful to pass up for me.

* - thanks to analyticcyling.com of course 🙂

Lucy,

Make sure you let us know how close to reality your estimation is...

BTW I am sure you will start geeking out shortly. It happens to the best of us...🙂

Jim

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Hi Jim 🙂

Thank you for your response and the suggestion. Obviously, power data is going to be as useful as the software you have. I've heard of cyclingpeaks before so I imagine it is highly regarded.

I admit I'm not the most mechanically inclined person, ok that's an understatement! Still, if all I'd have to do was drop the new wheel in place, put on my current cassette, connect the wires and the computer - then it wouldn't be too bad for my limited abilities 😄

I have a rough idea of what power* I can make over say, a 13.5 mile 5.2% climb here - and yes it is poor, but improving. Still the precision of a real unit is far too powerful to pass up for me.

* - thanks to analyticcyling.com of course 🙂

Hi Lucy
Best of luck with it - it's a brave new world but well worth the journey. If you're already doing calcs on analyticcycling then you're well on your way!

There is a site with lots of references and links to just about everything power related, so bookmark this one:

trainwithpower.nettrainwithpower.netOpen ↗

Have a look - plenty of material to help out. Don't let it freak you out though - there is a lot to absorb (but we all get there eventually), so make sure you enjoy riding for a while and keep a good portion of time devoted to developing bike handling skills, you'll need them as you become stronger and start to race.

Suggest also getting the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" - referenced in above site. Cheapest part of the whole deal but the best value!

Alex

Alex Simmons said:

Hi Lucy
Best of luck with it - it's a brave new world but well worth the journey. If you're already doing calcs on analyticcycling then you're well on your way!

There is a site with lots of references and links to just about everything power related, so bookmark this one:

trainwithpower.nettrainwithpower.netOpen ↗

Have a look - plenty of material to help out. Don't let it freak you out though - there is a lot to absorb (but we all get there eventually), so make sure you enjoy riding for a while and keep a good portion of time devoted to developing bike handling skills, you'll need them as you become stronger and start to race.

Suggest also getting the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" - referenced in above site. Cheapest part of the whole deal but the best value!

Alex

Alex - Thanks for your comments and suggestions. In fact, the second thing I did after I ordered the wheel & PT pro, was to get the book you mentioned as I had heard so much about it. Now for the first thing I did of course, was flash a stupid grin around my office making my coworkers wonder why I was so chipper!

There is indeed so much to absorb. I looked on this site for about a week before I posted and kept seeing this seemingly occult language punctuated by phrases like CP6, AP, NP, FTP.... I was like CP - er, candle power? co-pilot? cyberpunk? 😄

Now it makes much, much more sense.

otb4evr - I hear what you are saying. I've used analyticcyling for a few things. First off, getting a real sense of what affects riding performance. So I've learned what role things like weight, power, and speed all play. For all the mystification and glamorizing of climbers, etc - it really comes down to numbers, power-to-weight for instance, at least in everyday situations - I know racing has tactics and that plays a big part in results. Secondly, I have also used it to get a ballpark estimate of where my power figures might be. That way, when I do get the PT, if it reads, oh say 395 watts for an hour, I'll know something is very, very wrong - probably my installation 😎

Lucy, you didn't say which PT you are getting, but at this point in time you have the option of considering the PT SL2.4. This unit has just begun shipping and ordinarily one would want to wait awhile to see how it holds up in the field. But, I'm pretty familiar with the changes from the PT SL (which I have used for ~12K miles) and I think it will hold up well in the field. The differences in the PT SL2.4 (vs. the PT SL) are: (1) it is completely wireless, so there is no "installation" beyond putting the wheel on your bike (60secs) and putting a computer mount on your handlebar (30secs). Optionally, you can put a wireless cadence pickup on your chain stay to get cadence directly from the crank (as opposed to imputed cadence from the hub), with two zip ties (60secs). (2) it is more resistant to moisture problems than any previous PowerTap hub because all of the electronics are "sealed." (3) it sends data twice as frequently as the PT SL (.63secs vs. 1.26secs).

I'm not saying you should get the PT SL2.4 for these reasons. It's just that this is now an option (but only literally in the last few weeks) and that you might want to consider this option before deciding which PM to get.

Hi RDO 🙂

I actually ended up getting the system shown in the original post:

http://www.all3sports.com/product_info.php?pName=powertap-pro-complete-system-velocity-deepv

For me it seemed like a reasonable deal, no doubt better ones are on e-bay, but then I've had some serious problems with ebay purchases on numerous occasions. Once bitten, twice shy maybe.

I'm sure the PT SL 2.4 will be a good product, but admittedly I was on something of a budget. For a rider of my caliber (ie...rank beginner!), I think the PT pro unit I bought will be more than enough. I figure if or when I get decently fit and have a go at low-level racing, then I'll ante up for a wireless, lighter-weight, PT unit - like the one you mentioned.

Plus I figure, the unit I'm getting now can always be resold in the future, should I outgrow it or really need a more lithe hub.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Hi RDO 🙂

I actually ended up getting the system shown in the original post:

all3sports.comproduct info.phpOpen ↗

For me it seemed like a reasonable deal, no doubt better ones are on e-bay, but then I've had some serious problems with ebay purchases on numerous occasions. Once bitten, twice shy maybe.

I'm sure the PT SL 2.4 will be a good product, but admittedly I was on something of a budget. For a rider of my caliber (ie...rank beginner!), I think the PT pro unit I bought will be more than enough. I figure if or when I get decently fit and have a go at low-level racing, then I'll ante up for a wireless, lighter-weight, PT unit - like the one you mentioned.

Plus I figure, the unit I'm getting now can always be resold in the future, should I outgrow it or really need a more lithe hub.

Good choice and you're right about being able to sell it in the future and upgrading. At this point getting reasonably accurate power data is a giant step and moving up to more elegant models are baby steps. I'm always amazed at people's willingness to spend thousands of $$s on their bikes but being unwilling to spend money on improving their bike's engine.

RDO - thanks, I'm glad you approve 😄

Seriously though, you and me both. Baffled that is by the likes of those spending thousands on new bikes, but who couldn't ride them out of a wet paper bag!

I got a new entry-level trek, a women's model, for just over $1000. Easily, could I have spent 3, 4, even 5 times as much and for what? To look like a complete poseur and idiot getting dropped on every climb? Eh no!

I want to be better and good - whether I'm riding a 70's fixie with duct tape or a new CF bike is irrelevant!

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

RDO - thanks, I'm glad you approve 😄

Seriously though, you and me both. Baffled that is by the likes of those spending thousands on new bikes, but who couldn't ride them out of a wet paper bag!

I got a new entry-level trek, a women's model, for just over $1000. Easily, could I have spent 3, 4, even 5 times as much and for what? To look like a complete poseur and idiot getting dropped on every climb? Eh no!

I want to be better and good - whether I'm riding a 70's fixie with duct tape or a new CF bike is irrelevant!

Well, you're off to a good start, having bought a nice power meter plus The Book and The Software. If you have the patience to wade through it, you might get some value from reading through Sillyoldtwit's huge thread, "It's Killing Me ..." Good luck.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I want to be better and good - whether I'm riding a 70's fixie with duct tape or a new CF bike is irrelevant!

I've just noticed where you live. You might want to consider investing in a trainer. Trainers are incredibly efficient for training in the winter months (actually, anytime) and contrary to popular opinion you can actually increase power over the winter months with the right trainer program. The Kurt Kinetic Road Machine is a very good choice (~$300).

Heh...yeah, we are regional neighbors, sort of anyway.

I've been reading here on the usefulness of trainers so I can see their value. So at some point I may opt for one. Even so, I am comfortable riding through the winter so weather won't be an issue. What I will admit though is that given the time changes, it becomes harder to get meaningful rides in during the week - you know, dark at 5pm, et al~

Thanks for mentioning "sly's" thread. I am getting quite a bit out of it actually.

I tend to be very structured with training and planning my bike rides - geez, i've spent hours on analyticcyling figuring out grades, watts, m/s, etc! My friends don't even bother asking what I did for the weekend, instead it typically is, 'where did you ride you bike to?" 🙂

Based on data I plugged into AC for a nearby, longer climb (13.5 miles @ 5.2%) that I do every week, I'm getting a little over 130 watts for a 2+ hour period. Another climb, but much shorter that I do often is 0.53 miles @ 15.1%, and AC indicates a wattage of 245 for that - this is about 8 minutes long. The latter though, is pretty darn close to 'red-line' effort for me though. I have no idea what that would translate into for FTP.

I'm sure a few rides with the new PT will reveal all.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I tend to be very structured with training and planning my bike rides - geez, i've spent hours on analyticcyling figuring out grades, watts, m/s, etc! My friends don't even bother asking what I did for the weekend, instead it typically is, 'where did you ride you bike to?" 🙂

Then you're the perfect candidate for riding with power. You'll soon have enough data to keep you engaged for hours.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Based on data I plugged into AC for a nearby, longer climb (13.5 miles @ 5.2%) that I do every week, I'm getting a little over 130 watts for a 2+ hour period. Another climb, but much shorter that I do often is 0.53 miles @ 15.1%, and AC indicates a wattage of 245 for that - this is about 8 minutes long. The latter though, is pretty darn close to 'red-line' effort for me though. I have no idea what that would translate into for FTP.

Well, it sounds as though it's 200+, but that will depend on how well trained your anaerobic capacity is relative to your aerobic capacity. There's a fairly broad range of ratios of 8min power to 60min power, depending on one's AC. Anyway, you'll soon be able to test anything you have the desire to test.

RapDaddyo said:

Then you're the perfect candidate for riding with power. You'll soon have enough data to keep you engaged for hours.

Oh yes. I insist on analyzing everything, breaking down rides into segments, and feeding them into my theoretical web-based power meter 🙂

RapDaddyo said:

Well, it sounds as though it's 200+, but that will depend on how well trained your anaerobic capacity is relative to your aerobic capacity. There's a fairly broad range of ratios of 8min power to 60min power, depending on one's AC. Anyway, you'll soon be able to test anything you have the desire to test.

Much as I would like to agree, I suspect 200+ is probably a lot higher than what I can do for an hour. I've noticed that I tend to be less weak, if you will, when it comes to short, anaerobic efforts (ie...cresting a short section of say a 20% grade), than I am to sustained, hour-length type work, ala ITT.

The way I've done intervals I suspect is responsible for that. My LT HR, based on road tests, is about 160-163. I say about as I know it isn't exact. I often end up doing the intervals above that level, say 165-175, which probably explains why my anaerobic system is ever so slightly better developed than my aerobic component. Once I get the PT I can do those ever popular and recommended 2x20 min @ L4 intervals.

In looking at the power tables that Andy Coggan has, mine probably has a sharply downward slope....even though I have never really done sprint training. I'll try to even things out soon.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

In looking at the power tables that Andy Coggan has, mine probably has a sharply downward slope....even though I have never really done sprint training. I'll try to even things out soon.

Well, it's not so much a matter of trying to attain some sort of "perfect" MP/duration curve (MP=max power) as it is a matter of simply understanding one's capabilities at different durations and choosing to train in a way that targets certain adaptations which in turn increases power within certain durations. We all have the choice of how to spend our training time and there are 4 main areas we can choose to target: FTP, VO2MAX, AC and NM (although FTP and VO2MAX together determine one's 1hr power=FTP). I don't view any of my MP/duration curve as either a strength or a weakness. It simply reflects my state of fitness at a moment in time. With targeted training, I can choose to increase it or not.

RapDaddyo said:

Well, it's not so much a matter of trying to attain some sort of "perfect" MP/duration curve (MP=max power) as it is a matter of simply understanding one's capabilities at different durations and choosing to train in a way that targets certain adaptations which in turn increases power within certain durations. We all have the choice of how to spend our training time and there are 4 main areas we can choose to target: FTP, VO2MAX, AC and NM (although FTP and VO2MAX together determine one's 1hr power=FTP). I don't view any of my MP/duration curve as either a strength or a weakness. It simply reflects my state of fitness at a moment in time. With targeted training, I can choose to increase it or not.

Well yes, that is all correct of course. I don't think there is any requirement or need for me to be some sort of 'all-rounder'. It just so happens I enjoy hill climbing so I would want to target my training to improve that - raising FTP and all.

Ok so I have comment a bit....I'm working my way through that thread and am darn near floored [img]cyclingforums.comeek.gifOpen ↗[/img] ~ In a sort of hopeful way....I mean you were saying that Tyson would get his power over 200 by may, where it was 130, in my range, at the beginning of the thread. Now in the last posts I'm reading about him doing 250w L4 efforts.

Geez! With that kind of improvement I'd be just gushing 🙂

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I'm working my way through that thread and am darn near floored [img]cyclingforums.comeek.gifOpen ↗[/img] ~ In a sort of hopeful way....I mean you were saying that Tyson would get his power over 200 by may, where it was 130, in my range, at the beginning of the thread. Now in the last posts I'm reading about him doing 250w L4 efforts. Geez! With that kind of improvement I'd be just gushing 🙂

Actually, his FTP is probably close to 250W now. He's doing shorter efforts (e.g., 3mins) at ~280W! Nine months ago he was wondering if he should just stop riding for good.

RapDaddyo said:

Actually, his FTP is probably close to 250W now. He's doing shorter efforts (e.g., 3mins) at ~280W! Nine months ago he was wondering if he should just stop riding for good.

So I noticed - 250W - that's really impressive to me. For practical purposes, he's eseentially doubled his FTP. I am a bit envious and hoping to find similar fruit for my coming labor 🙂

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I'm new to the forum, and only, slightly that is, less new to riding (say 3 months).

You are new to riding? You only cycle for 3 months?

And you already are spending hours on analyticcyling figuring out grades, watts, m/s? Buying a powermeter, having FTP goals.etc.etc. ?

Wow, I think that al those things took most of us more than a couple of years. Do you have any other sport history?