Travelling without flying

Nick Kew said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution. But the
alternatives are ... lots of frustration.
I am mired in inconsistent and inaccessible information,
and noone wants to sell me a ticket! It's no wonder people
fly when it is not merely cheaper (due in large part to the
heavily subsidised fuel) but also so much easier to get
information and tickets. No good reason, just bad management.

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ). I'm travelling from West Devon,
so Plymouth is my city of departure.

For Amsterdam, I *should* be able to avoid flying: indeed, an
online query with http://www.bahn.de/ gives me the options I
wanted to consider: the channel tunnel, and the Harwich-
Hoek van Holland ferry.

But bahn.de cannot sell me a ticket, nor quote me a price.
Fair enough: my journey is wholly outside their country!
So I picked up the phone to First Great Western, the train
company that sells tickets from Plymouth. Nope, they can't
sell a ticket for the journey; only the UK part of it. Bah.

Next try: websites. Eurotunnel's website lets me select
London-Amsterdam (bah, again), but tells me it can't get me
a fare for the journey. A quick google reveals that the
ferry company for the alternative is Stena, and their website
hints at some rather attractive "dutchflyer" fare. But Stena's
website is too badly broken to book anything.

So, back to the phone. Eurotunnel *can* sell me a ticket from
London to Amsterdam (half-hurrah ... ). What they can't offer
is a sensible time of day for the homeward journey: it's either
too early, or spend four dead hours of the night waiting at a
dutch or belgian station. And the person I spoke to suggested I
might get a better package (through from Plymouth) from Rail Europe.

Well that is odd when they have advised the following this last week
in Business travel news-

EUROSTAR has got together with its fellow international fast train
operators Thalys of Belgium and Deutsche Bahnes ICE to enable
customers to travel quickly and easily from the UK to Germany, via a
simple connection in Brussels. The alliance means that passengers can
now travel between London and Cologne or Aachen with a single ticket.
A 24-hour stopover is allowed in Brussels which is the connecting
point. Fastest journey time is 4 hours 23 minutes Aachen and 5 hours
2 minutes to Cologne (each one hour less from Ashford International).
http://www.eurostar.com top

"Nick Kew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution. But the
alternatives are ... lots of frustration.
I am mired in inconsistent and inaccessible information,
and noone wants to sell me a ticket! It's no wonder people
fly when it is not merely cheaper (due in large part to the
heavily subsidised fuel) but also so much easier to get
information and tickets. No good reason, just bad management.

I agree with the above. Another difficulty with rail travel is you can only
make a booking a couple of months in advance (if you are lucky). Should you
then fail to get a reasonable fair, the cheapest air fares are no longer
available.

James

http://www.seat61.com/

Says it all really.

"James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I agree with the above. Another difficulty with rail travel is you can

only

Quoted message said:

make a booking a couple of months in advance (if you are lucky). Should

you

Quoted message said:

then fail to get a reasonable fair, the cheapest air fares are no longer
available.

Worse, for a return it's two months before the return journey, so for a two
week trip away that's six weeks before the outward journey - meaning the
best fares for that half may well have gone.

Regards

Jonathan

"Nick Kew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

Quoted message said:

Epilogue: after composing but before posting this I tried the phone
again, and got through to Stena line. Looks like they are a goer after
all: just catch the sleeper to London, and their apex fare from London
to Amsterdam works ... not perfectly, but as well as the flights:-)

--
Nick Kew

For the record you can catch a coach from London Victoria
to Amsterdam that leaves Victoria coach station at 7.30 AM
and gets you in to Amsterdam at 7.30PM for 140 Euros
return including ferries

http://www.nationalexpress.com/eurolines_microsite/index.cfm

Keith

"Nick Kew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution. But the
alternatives are ... lots of frustration.
I am mired in inconsistent and inaccessible information,
and noone wants to sell me a ticket! It's no wonder people
fly when it is not merely cheaper (due in large part to the
heavily subsidised fuel) but also so much easier to get
information and tickets. No good reason, just bad management.

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ). I'm travelling from West Devon,
so Plymouth is my city of departure.

For Amsterdam, I *should* be able to avoid flying: indeed, an
online query with http://www.bahn.de/ gives me the options I
wanted to consider: the channel tunnel, and the Harwich-
Hoek van Holland ferry.

I think you have assumed that flying will be significantly worse for
pollution than multiple train journeys. On a fully loaded plane, its likely
to be roughly equivalent AFAICR.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Tumbleweed said:

I think you have assumed that flying will be significantly worse for
pollution than multiple train journeys. On a fully loaded plane, its likely
to be roughly equivalent AFAICR.

Especially when you consider the roundabout route the trains take vs the
fairly direct route of the plane.

Tony

I used the "Amsterdam Express" utilizing National Rail/Stenna ferry last
year and booked Two/Three weeks (at least) in advance for GBP25 "Super
Apex Fare"one way. Departed Liverpool St Station as I recall. It was
great BTW! Found the info on the 'seat61' site.

Tim K

"Keith W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Nick Kew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

Quoted message said:

Epilogue: after composing but before posting this I tried the phone
again, and got through to Stena line. Looks like they are a goer

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all: just catch the sleeper to London, and their apex fare from

London

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to Amsterdam works ... not perfectly, but as well as the flights:-)

--
Nick Kew

For the record you can catch a coach from London Victoria
to Amsterdam that leaves Victoria coach station at 7.30 AM
and gets you in to Amsterdam at 7.30PM for 140 Euros
return including ferries

http://www.nationalexpress.com/eurolines_microsite/index.cfm

Keith

"Martin WY" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nick Kew said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution. But the
alternatives are ... lots of frustration.
I am mired in inconsistent and inaccessible information,
and noone wants to sell me a ticket! It's no wonder people
fly when it is not merely cheaper (due in large part to the
heavily subsidised fuel) but also so much easier to get
information and tickets. No good reason, just bad management.

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ). I'm travelling from West Devon,
so Plymouth is my city of departure.

<SNIP details>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, back to the phone. Eurotunnel *can* sell me a ticket from
London to Amsterdam (half-hurrah ... ). What they can't offer
is a sensible time of day for the homeward journey: it's either
too early, or spend four dead hours of the night waiting at a
dutch or belgian station. And the person I spoke to suggested I
might get a better package (through from Plymouth) from Rail Europe.

Well that is odd when they have advised the following this last week
in Business travel news-

EUROSTAR has got together with its fellow international fast train
operators Thalys of Belgium and Deutsche Bahnes ICE to enable
customers to travel quickly and easily from the UK to Germany, via a
simple connection in Brussels.

<SNIP more details about irrelevant services>

What is relevant is that Eurostar has already made through booking
arrangements for journeys between London Waterloo and Amsterdam Central, a
summary of which is given in the current UK Eurostar timetable leaflet
(services 13 Feb - 16 July).
The last journey back shown is Amsterdam dep 16:56, London ar. 21:56.
Similar onward connections are also available for key stations between Lille
and Marseilles. For info and reservations, phone 08705 186 186 in the UK.

Regards,

- Alan (in Brusssels)

Quote Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution....

Don't go, save the planet.

Kevin

Nick Kew composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution.

Live in a cave. 😉

Quoted message said:

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ).

One would have thought that with the technology available, and the subject
matter, one mighn't need to travel at all. I have successfully used a live
video link before between Nottingham, Stuttgart and Rio de Janeiro. Saves a
[censored]-load on fares and doesn't add to pollution at all as the kit would be
mostly being used anyway. Admittedly you don't get the flavour of travel to
other countries or the freebies that are always good fun at conferences and
exhibitions but ...

Quoted message said:

For Amsterdam, I *should* be able to avoid flying: indeed,

For short-haul journeys on mostly full planes that are scheduled anyway, I
would have thought the pollution is going to be put out whether you fly or
not, so I see no p_real_ problem with this type of journey.

Quoted message said:

Epilogue: after composing but before posting this I tried the phone
again, and got through to Stena line. Looks like they are a goer after
all: just catch the sleeper to London, and their apex fare from London
to Amsterdam works ... not perfectly, but as well as the flights:-)

And the comparison between pollution put out by a few trains and a ferry
compared to one plane flight is different how?

Seems to me you've gone to a [censored]-load of trouble for very minor advantage
and possibly an even worse situation.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul - censored said:

Nick Kew composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution.

Quoted message said:

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ).

One would have thought that with the technology available, and the subject
matter, one mighn't need to travel at all. I have successfully used a live
video link before between Nottingham, Stuttgart and Rio de Janeiro. Saves a
[censored]-load on fares and doesn't add to pollution at all as the kit would be
mostly being used anyway. Admittedly you don't get the flavour of travel to
other countries or the freebies that are always good fun at conferences and
exhibitions but ...

You don't get the informal discussion outside the main conference sessions,
either - and that's where the real stuff happens (at science conferences,
at least). Videoconferening has its uses, but you don't get the real
gains that happen when you sit a group of people down in the same place
and they get talking.

Last year's big european meeting for me (European Geosciences Union)
was in Nice (and I /did/ go to that one by train). I ended up designing
three new experiments based on conversations I'd had at that meeting,
and the observing "cost" of one of them (well, hours-on-radio-telescopes)
was contributed from outside-UK as a result of one of those conversations.

This spring the meeting is in Vienna, and unfortunately this time the
cost balance is just a bit too unfavourable to rail 🙁

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

In uk.rec.cycling Andrew Robert Breen <[email hidden]> wrote:

: You don't get the informal discussion outside the main conference sessions,
: either - and that's where the real stuff happens (at science conferences,

Indeed. And this is why video-conferencing etc basically *increases* travel.
It makes possible remote collabrations (outsoucing to India say) but at
the cost of a large number of flights between the collabrators.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
Don't get me wrong, perl is an OK operating system, but it lacks a
lightweight scripting language -- Walter Dnes

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And the comparison between pollution put out by a few trains and a ferry
compared to one plane flight is different how?

Interesting question in these days of relatively heavy, high powered
trains - and fast sea-cats. But aircraft do use a lot of fuel per passenger
journey - and also throw out the pollution at high altitudes where it does
most damage. Scheduled services may fligh whether or not you buy a ticket -
but contributing to high loadings may increase their future frequency - and
consequent damage to the environment.

James

In message <[email hidden]>

Keith W said:

"Nick Kew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

Quoted message said:

Epilogue: after composing but before posting this I tried the phone
again, and got through to Stena line. Looks like they are a goer after
all: just catch the sleeper to London, and their apex fare from London
to Amsterdam works ... not perfectly, but as well as the flights:-)

--
Nick Kew

For the record you can catch a coach from London Victoria
to Amsterdam that leaves Victoria coach station at 7.30 AM
and gets you in to Amsterdam at 7.30PM for 140 Euros
return including ferries

I did Eurostar/Thalys to Amsterdam for about that, leaving at about 09.30
arriving about 1800. Booked 21 days in advance.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

Paul - censored said:

Nick Kew composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution.

Live in a cave. 😉

Quoted message said:

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ).

One would have thought that with the technology available, and the
subject matter, one mighn't need to travel at all. I have
successfully used a live video link before between Nottingham,
Stuttgart and Rio de Janeiro. Saves a [censored]-load on fares and doesn't
add to pollution at all as the kit would be mostly being used anyway.
Admittedly you don't get the flavour of travel to other countries or
the freebies that are always good fun at conferences and exhibitions
but ...

Quoted message said:

For Amsterdam, I *should* be able to avoid flying: indeed,

For short-haul journeys on mostly full planes that are scheduled
anyway, I would have thought the pollution is going to be put out
whether you fly or not, so I see no p_real_ problem with this type of
journey.

<snip>

This argument is often made - 'the plane's going anyway, whether or not I
get on it' - which is probably true. But look at the long term and bigger
picture and it *does* make a difference: the (UK) government's (and
airlines'😉 predict and provide strategy means that more demand=more services
in the future (and more runways, airports etc.). If less people make short
haul trips now, there's less justification for the increasing numbers of
them. If everyone went for the 'what difference does one person making one
journey make' style of argument, there'd be no such thing as popular
movements bringing about significant social change - which they have done,
and sometimes still do.

My 2p.

wheeler said:

This argument is often made - 'the plane's going anyway, whether or not I
get on it' - which is probably true. But look at the long term and bigger
picture and it *does* make a difference: the (UK) government's (and
airlines'😉 predict and provide strategy means that more demand=more services
in the future (and more runways, airports etc.). If less people make short
haul trips now, there's less justification for the increasing numbers of
them. If everyone went for the 'what difference does one person making one
journey make' style of argument, there'd be no such thing as popular
movements bringing about significant social change - which they have done,
and sometimes still do.
My 2p.

I fuly agree with your 2p.

Andrew Robert Breen composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul - censored said:

Nick Kew composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Aaargh!

I want to avoid contributing unduly to pollution.

Quoted message said:

I have to go to Amsterdam in May (for a conference -
http://www.xtech.org/ ).

One would have thought that with the technology available, and the
subject matter, one mighn't need to travel at all. I have successfully
used a live video link before between Nottingham, Stuttgart and Rio de
Janeiro. Saves a [censored]-load on fares and doesn't add to pollution at all
as the kit would be mostly being used anyway. Admittedly you don't get
the flavour of travel to other countries or the freebies that are always
good fun at conferences and exhibitions but ...

You don't get the informal discussion outside the main conference
sessions, either - and that's where the real stuff happens (at science
conferences, at least). Videoconferening has its uses, but you don't get
the real
gains that happen when you sit a group of people down in the same place
and they get talking.

Yup, and I do agree it's a major drawback with any sort of conferencing,
video or not.

Quoted message said:

Last year's big european meeting for me (European Geosciences Union)
was in Nice (and I /did/ go to that one by train). I ended up designing
three new experiments based on conversations I'd had at that meeting,
and the observing "cost" of one of them (well, hours-on-radio-telescopes)
was contributed from outside-UK as a result of one of those conversations.

LOL, we re-designed a jig for BMW based upon just such a meeting in a small
bar at a German toy-fair, of all places. The re-design was so much more
efficient that it paid for about three years worth of comference /
Exhibition travel. Doesn't happen often, but when it does it's dynamite.
😉

Quoted message said:

This spring the meeting is in Vienna, and unfortunately this time the
cost balance is just a bit too unfavourable to rail 🙁

LOL, yup, sometimes it's all down to the bean-counters .. 😉

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

James composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Scheduled services may fligh whether or not
you buy a ticket - but contributing to high loadings may increase their
future frequency - and consequent damage to the environment.

I think the important thing is _may_ contribute ... there are too many
variables to really be absolutely right one way or the other, I think.

One person going on a train/ferry/train instead of a plane, all of which are
going to be doing the journey anyway, seems to me to be almost a no-brainer,
and I'd use the most convenient/cost-effective.

The relative environmental impact for single person journeys is hardly going
to be significant to anyone or in any way.

If it came to numerous journeys then it's a different argument ....

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!