Trainingstips for L6/L7 rides

spot1100 said:

Hello !

Today, I planned to do some testing. I did a 20min Warm up, 3x 1min fast pedal mit Rpm > 100,
3min easy,
5min Allout,
10min Easy,
2x 1min Allout,
5min Easy,
3x 20sec Allout,
Easy 3min,
10min easy,
20min TT

This is the Testing Protokol of the Sample Trainingplan of "Training and Racing With A Powermeter" book.

It wasn´t my Day.... after the first 5min Allout I was so tired, that I thought I can´t go on. But I did.....
I only stopped the 20min TT after about 6min because I can´t hold my wattage, I reached with the last test in 20min)

I was rested, the last 2 Days I did only L1

So I think I have a very poor "L6 capacity" and Sprint is terrible too...

Male, 78kg,
5sec 10,72 w/kg
1min 4,9 w/kg
5min 4,08 w/kg
FT 3,29 w/kg

I am used to train about 15hours/week. I would like to start on an "easy race" in about 1 Month.

What are your thoughts to get rid of these weaknesses ?

What should I do to perform much better in 1min and sprint and how often should I schedule this in my weekly training ?

Thanks
Spot

Huge Coaching question...but I'll bite.

If you can't hold the watts that you were able to on your previous test, assuming that you were using the very same protocol, my first thought, without knowing you and seeing what your last several weeks look like, is that you have residual training fatigue...

During your workouts, have you noticed a steady degradation on the wattage that you can carry?

Jim

otb4evr said:

Huge Coaching question...but I'll bite.

If you can't hold the watts that you were able to on your previous test, assuming that you were using the very same protocol, my first thought, without knowing you and seeing what your last several weeks look like, is that you have residual training fatigue...

During your workouts, have you noticed a steady degradation on the wattage that you can carry?

Jim

The last 3 weeks, I did only two L4 Workouts. But I could carry the FT Wattage very well. Last Week, on little climbs (10min), I also could go over my FTP very easy.
Maybe the reason is, that I am a bit psycho-stressed because of an illness in my family... But last night, I was sleeping very well...

On my last Test I averaged 303 Watt. Now I reached 320 Watt. But the 20min TT was too much...

spot1100 said:

So I think I have a very poor "L6 capacity" and Sprint is terrible too...
Male, 78kg,
5sec 10,72 w/kg
1min 4,9 w/kg
5min 4,08 w/kg
FT 3,29 w/kg

I don't think I would characterize your power profile exactly that way. First of all, each of us has a different power profile and there isn't a "good" one or a "bad" one. It is helpful to know what it is, for two reasons. One is targeted adaptations to improve a specific part of the profile (e.g., FT, AWC or neuromuscular). Two is to choose events to focus on where our particular power profile is not a disadvantage. If I compare your power profile with mine, we are almost identical at 5mins (~125%FT). Mine is higher than yours at 1min (178%FT vs. 148%FT). So, I wouldn't characterize your 5min power as "poor." Your 5sec power (836W), while not outstanding, is not too shabby. It really depends on what you can hold for 15-20secs. Every sprint finish unfolds differently, but I think sprints that exceed 500W for more than 15secs are rare in the lower categories (e.g., Cat4 & Cat5).

As to training, why don't you try to mix some plain-vanilla L6 & L7 intervals into your training program for a couple of weeks and re-test?

RapDaddyo said:

I don't think I would characterize your power profile exactly that way. First of all, each of us has a different power profile and there isn't a "good" one or a "bad" one. It is helpful to know what it is, for two reasons. One is targeted adaptations to improve a specific part of the profile (e.g., FT, AWC or neuromuscular). Two is to choose events to focus on where our particular power profile is not a disadvantage. If I compare your power profile with mine, we are almost identical at 5mins (~125%FT). Mine is higher than yours at 1min (178%FT vs. 148%FT). So, I wouldn't characterize your 5min power as "poor." Your 5sec power (836W), while not outstanding, is not too shabby. It really depends on what you can hold for 15-20secs. Every sprint finish unfolds differently, but I think sprints that exceed 500W for more than 15secs are rare in the lower categories (e.g., Cat4 & Cat5).

As to training, why don't you try to mix some plain-vanilla L6 & L7 intervals into your training program for a couple of weeks and re-test?

I averaged 747 Watt in 10sec, 559 Watt in 20sec

Ok, thank you ! This makes me a bit happier :-)
I am going to make some L6 / L7 intervalls.... Do you do a testprotocoll in the same way ? Is it good to test all from 5sec to 20min in one testing ?

My last test was:

3x fast pedal
5min allout
20min TT

This worked fine. Today I think my lactat killed me :-) It was really painfull...

spot1100 said:

I averaged 747 Watt in 10sec, 559 Watt in 20sec
Ok, thank you ! This makes me a bit happier :-)
I am going to make some L6 / L7 intervalls.... Do you do a testprotocoll in the same way ? Is it good to test all from 5sec to 20min in one testing ?

I have recently gone to the testing protocol described in this thead cyclingforums.comt334108.htmlOpen ↗. I have done this because I want good data points for a Critical Power curve. I need this data for both training ride design and real-time race data. A key distinction in my testing protocol is that I choose the power and then ride to max duration, rather than picking a duration and then guessing at max power (if that makes any sense).

spot1100 said:

Do you do a testprotocoll in the same way ? Is it good to test all from 5sec to 20min in one testing ?...

No. Fatigue was a major factor for you, as it would be for virtually anyone doing alll those efforts in one ride of less than 2 hours, especially if you're not really fit and well-trained in all of those areas.

Try testing just one aneraobic ability like 5 or 20 seconds after a good warmup, then ride easy for 10-15 minutes, and then test one aerobic ability like 20 minutes, or maybe the 5 minutes all out (lower level anaerobic). These two tests will call on mostly different energy systems and mostly different muscle fibers so the fatigue caused by the first test won't have much effect on your second test. A ride like this should allow you to do more testing the next day.

Racing will most clearly highlight your strengths and weaknesses relative to your fellow competitors. Race soon. Your FT looks plenty good enough right now to hang in with the 5's. The worst that will happen is that you will learn more about what areas you need to improve.

WarrenG said:

No. Fatigue was a major factor for you, as it would be for virtually anyone doing alll those efforts in one ride of less than 2 hours, especially if you're not really fit and well-trained in all of those areas.

Try testing just one aneraobic ability like 5 or 20 seconds after a good warmup, then ride easy for 10-15 minutes, and then test one aerobic ability like 20 minutes, or maybe the 5 minutes all out (lower level anaerobic). These two tests will call on mostly different energy systems and mostly different muscle fibers so the fatigue caused by the first test won't have much effect on your second test. A ride like this should allow you to do more testing the next day.

Racing will most clearly highlight your strengths and weaknesses relative to your fellow competitors. Race soon. Your FT looks plenty good enough right now to hang in with the 5's. The worst that will happen is that you will learn more about what areas you need to improve.

In the Book "Tranining and Racing with a Powermeter" it is the fatigue of the 5min "allout" which provide a "real" FTP in the 20min TT. Coggan says, that this will dispense with my initial freshness.
What do you think about that ?

spot1100 said:

In the Book "Tranining and Racing with a Powermeter" it is the fatigue of the 5min "allout" which provide a "real" FTP in the 20min TT. Coggan says, that this will dispense with my initial freshness.
What do you think about that ?

5 minutes all out is very hard. Even the world's best pursuiters don't usually perform as well 4-6 hours after something that hard. The fatigue from that effort would affect different people differently so the effect on the 20 min TT could vary as well.

I'd suggest a sprint test first and then the 5 minute test, and then either rest up for another test the next day or do other training, but no more tests that day if you want to see your best efforts for the durations.

IF you care more about your results within the context of the fatigue produced by the other tests then you could do them all on one day, but I doubt that this is your intent. For example, if you want to learn about your ability to sprint at the end of a race you don't do a sprint when you're comletely rested, you do your sprint from a pre-fatigued state that includes a simulation of many physiological factors you'll encounter at the end of a race. Similar for a hard one-minute period in a race.

You could experiment to find which protocol works best for you.

WarrenG said:

5 minutes all out is very hard. Even the world's best pursuiters don't usually perform as well 4-6 hours after something that hard. The fatigue from that effort would affect different people differently so the effect on the 20 min TT could vary as well.

I'd suggest a sprint test first and then the 5 minute test, and then either rest up for another test the next day or do other training, but no more tests that day if you want to see your best efforts for the durations.

IF you care more about your results within the context of the fatigue produced by the other tests then you could do them all on one day, but I doubt that this is your intent. For example, if you want to learn about your ability to sprint at the end of a race you don't do a sprint when you're comletely rested, you do your sprint from a pre-fatigued state that includes a simulation of many physiological factors you'll encounter at the end of a race. Similar for a hard one-minute period in a race.

You could experiment to find which protocol works best for you.

I wonder why Andy uses this (5min allout and then after some break a 20min TT) as the "standard" FTP protocol. I think, what you said, is right to me.
I will test a Sprint - TT afford ....
Are there great differences between a 20min test (-5%) and one hour TT ?
I mean, if I am not used to TT one hour....

spot1100 said:

I wonder why Andy uses this (5min allout and then after some break a 20min TT) as the "standard" FTP protocol. I think, what you said, is right to me.
I will test a Sprint - TT afford ....
Are there great differences between a 20min test (-5%) and one hour TT ?
I mean, if I am not used to TT one hour....

I suppose the book explains why you can use their protocol. It can be a problem for a person to do a 1-hour TT or similar. It's very stressful and the availablility of a suitable course may be another problem. A 20minute test could be easier and less stressful, and the information gained from it could be used for training levels in ways that are similar to those you'd get from the longer test. Some people use zones based just on the 20 minute test.

Maybe your threshold intervals will be done at 90-95% of the power in the 20-minute test done from rest, or 95-100% of the power in a 20minute test right after a 5 minute test. (See below for more about this.)

In the end, these tests can be used to evaluate some aspects of your performance as it (probably) changes over time, but for bike racers, racing is the ultimate test of changes in performance for most aspects of fitness. Some lab tests can be used for some specific areas.

If you're mainly using the tests to set training levels then you will be adjusting your training levels based on what you're able to do in training. For example, if you decide you should do 4 minute intervals at some % of your 5 minute test, but you find that this is too hard or easy during your actual training then you would adjust your training level to where it's most appropriate for your needs and abilities.

In my own case, I didn't do a test to decide how hard I should ride in 4 x 4' intervals or similar. I did my first block of 4 x 4' intervals at about 50 watts over the level I use for threshold intervals and when I realized this was too easy I upped the target 10 watts and went with that. Anyway, for this type of interval you'll use a target that makes you go about as hard as you can for the total of all the intervals you want to do.

Later, you will increase the target power and/or duration based not on what a future test says should be the target, but based on what you can do in training.

So, the tests are just a starting point for setting your training zones/levels. Adjust and personalize your training zones as needed.

spot1100 said:

I wonder why Andy uses this (5min allout and then after some break a 20min TT) as the "standard" FTP protocol.

I don't: Hunter does (and you'll note that he's the lead author on the book).

spot1100 said:

Are there great differences between a 20min test (-5%) and one hour TT ?

Not usually, but in some cases the difference can be large enough to matter. That's one reason that I don't like this approach: I figure that if you're going to go to the trouble of conducting a formal test, then why rely on a generic correction (such as 0.95) that may or may not strictly apply in your case? If you consider an estimate of your functional threshold power to be good enough for your purposes, there are other ways of arriving at a number that are just as accurate, but less painful.

spot1100 said:

In the Book "Tranining and Racing with a Powermeter" it is the fatigue of the 5min "allout" which provide a "real" FTP in the 20min TT. Coggan says, that this will dispense with my initial freshness.

No, I've speculated that perhaps one reason that Hunter gets good results using 20 min power x 0.95 is because the 5 min "blow out" effort takes a little more out of those who have a high anaerobic capacity and a little less out of those who don't, thus reducing the variation between individuals in the rate of 20 min power to functional threshold power. That's only speculation on my part, however, and I would never recommend to anyone that they do a truly all-out 5 min effort before testing their power over other durations (after an effort like that, I will usually still have the shakes many hours later, due to extreme activation of my sympathetic nervous system...the same is true when I do a VO2max test).

I thought i'd just offer up my personal experience on the matter. For warm up's for testing and racing where i want to make sure i've zapped the freshness out of my muscles to make sure i don't explode the first 3 minutes of a test or race i like to warm up for 10-15 minutes easy gradually building up from my lv1 to lv3 power then doing some short 30 second burst's at lv 5 or lv6 usualy no more then 2 or 3 of them then go back to lv 1 to clear my legs for another 3-5minutes then proceed to start my event. Just what i find works for me at the moment, that could change in a month, or it could not work for anyone else ever.

acoggan said:

No, I've speculated that perhaps one reason that Hunter gets good results using 20 min power x 0.95 is because the 5 min "blow out" effort takes a little more out of those who have a high anaerobic capacity and a little less out of those who don't, thus reducing the variation between individuals in the rate of 20 min power to functional threshold power. That's only speculation on my part, however, and I would never recommend to anyone that they do a truly all-out 5 min effort before testing their power over other durations (after an effort like that, I will usually still have the shakes many hours later, due to extreme activation of my sympathetic nervous system...the same is true when I do a VO2max test).

Ok, sorry, I thought that this was your opinion, but it was Hunters. Could it be better, to make a 5min at about 115% of the old FTP (before testing..) to start more near to the "real" FTP. I Think this would be a Power I could maintain over 5min and after that recover to test 20min TT.

You are right, I had the shakes after that and I felt like I did a long Race with finsih sprint :-)

Maybe this should be mentioned in the book... because it is also for newbies in Power like me....

The shakes Chris :-)

spot1100 said:

Ok, sorry, I thought that this was your opinion, but it was Hunters. Could it be better, to make a 5min at about 115% of the old FTP (before testing..) to start more near to the "real" FTP. I Think this would be a Power I could maintain over 5min and after that recover to test 20min TT.

If you're going to do a 5min test and a 20min test, why not do one more (e.g., 3min) and have a complete Critical Power curve (of which FTP is just one by-product)?

spot1100 said:

Could it be better, to make a 5min at about 115% of the old FTP (before testing..) to start more near to the "real" FTP. I Think this would be a Power I could maintain over 5min and after that recover to test 20min TT.

That makes sense to me, and I'm guessing that it is close(r) to what Hunter really expects/wants people to do. That is, while he says "all out", I'd guess he really means "very hard"...with the difference between the two being critical due to the curvilinear relationship between exercise intensity and physiological strain.

spot1100 said:

Maybe this should be mentioned in the book... because it is also for newbies in Power like me....

I'll pass the suggestion along.

RapDaddyo said:

If you're going to do a 5min test and a 20min test, why not do one more (e.g., 3min) and have a complete Critical Power curve (of which FTP is just one by-product)?

To play devil's advocate (and/or to channel Robert Chung): what's the benefit to doing a 3rd test (of any duration), when the critical power concept assumes a linear relationship between work and time, and two points form a straight line?

WarrenG said:

If you're mainly using the tests to set training levels then you will be adjusting your training levels based on what you're able to do in training. For example, if you decide you should do 4 minute intervals at some % of your 5 minute test, but you find that this is too hard or easy during your actual training then you would adjust your training level to where it's most appropriate for your needs and abilities.

In my own case, I didn't do a test to decide how hard I should ride in 4 x 4' intervals or similar. I did my first block of 4 x 4' intervals at about 50 watts over the level I use for threshold intervals and when I realized this was too easy I upped the target 10 watts and went with that. Anyway, for this type of interval you'll use a target that makes you go about as hard as you can for the total of all the intervals you want to do.

Later, you will increase the target power and/or duration based not on what a future test says should be the target, but based on what you can do in training.

So, the tests are just a starting point for setting your training zones/levels. Adjust and personalize your training zones as needed.

You learn well, grasshoppa! 😉

As I put it about 5 y ago:

"...exercise prescriptions should be individualized, in this case
taking into account the power the athlete has generated in previous similar
or identical workouts...the primary reference, therefore, is not to the
system itself, but to the athlete's own unique (and current) ability."

(http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/read/message.html?mid=901936066&sort=d&start=101)

acoggan said:

You learn well, grasshoppa! 😉

I learned this pretty well during the month following my first lab test with Max. He set targets for all my training zones based on the tests and then my feedback was used for adjustments-there weren't any. Outside of lab tests I never do formal testing and my feedback based on current training ability is always used to set future targets, except when we're doing something new, then it's Max who sets the target based on his experience, and then I give him feedback after tryng it and it may be modified.

I have to say though, that not everyone will be able to give feedback that is accurate enough and understanding of the objectives. For some other people it would be best to do objective/formal testing to generate the most useful feedback for modifying targets.

Also, since I pay close attention to my HR's the targets for efforts around 4mmol/l (OBLA) and below always look at HR as it relates to power levels, i.e. I often aim at a HR range and power is expected to fall within a range and if it doesn't we look for the (chronic) reasons. So, some of my targets as far as power goes simply follow my increasing ability within a given HR zone.

The last 3 months we've been really pushing my limits for intensity and I'm using some power targets of just +/- 5 to 10 watts that are at the upper end of a training zone, and as long as the HR and/or PE are still close to a limit, I aim at the power number. This approach has required more exchange of feedback than in the past.