Training Turning into Racing?

In article said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run? Seems
every day for the past week I've found myself racing against someone on my training run. Call it
ego or pride....I don't care if I am supposed to be training at 80% or so.....once I sense a
"challenge"....it's on!

Me too. And I don't plan on it.

Quoted message said:

And in the back of my mind I wonder if the runner behind me is aware I sensed his/her approaching
me....and that I have "upped" a gear and am responding to their approaching me. Or as I approach
someone...I'll note them "placing it up a few notches and picking up the pace"....and the "race is
on"! And then I think OF COURSE they know we're racing!

Yep.

Quoted message said:

It's all unspoken.....it's all undelcared.....but we end up racing in our training runs. Am I right
or wrong on this? Sometimes it screws me up as I end up running 2, 3, 4 miles or whatever much much
harder than I had planned. But I do feel good afterwards.

I'm right with you. Screws me up too.

Quoted message said:

Am I the only one who keeps an awareness of those passing me on daily training

Oh... there's a change. I don't get passed. Not too many runners on my trails.

Quoted message said:

runs? Do any of you find yourself getting "race competitive" on your training runs? I find it so so
so hard to resist a "challenge". I kind of think runner's "know"....it's unspoken but we know when
we're racing against others in our training. I've often been in these situations and then after 3
or 4 miles and one of us has ended their run we've had a "tip of the cap", a "nod" of recirprocal
acknowledgement and appreciation for the race that brought out 110% effort in both of us.

Yep. When I see somebody ahead of me, I just have to close the distance, even if it's just a little.
If I know somebody is behind me, I try to separate myself from them. And I can see up to a mile in
either direction on certain stretches. "Hmmm, is that a runner or a biker way up there?" Once I can
tell/imagine it's a runner, my pace picks up.

Art

(Globaldisc) said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run? Seems
every day for the past week I've found myself racing against someone on my training run. Call it
ego or pride....I don't care if I am supposed to be training at 80% or so.....once I sense a
"challenge"....it's on!

You are a macho idiot.

Guilty as charged. However, for me, this egomaniacal practice is helpful in learning how to reel in
another runner over distance. My best races have been those where I would slowly overtake another
runner. I liked your "tip-o-the-hat comment. It's a win-win deal.

Globaldisc said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run? Seems
every day for the past week I've found myself racing against someone on my training run. Call it
ego or pride....I don't care if I am supposed to be training at 80% or so.....once I sense a
"challenge"....it's on!

And in the back of my mind I wonder if the runner behind me is aware I sensed his/her approaching
me....and that I have "upped" a gear and am responding to their approaching me. Or as I approach
someone...I'll note them "placing it up a few notches and picking up the pace"....and the "race is
on"! And then I think OF COURSE they know we're racing!

It's all unspoken.....it's all undelcared.....but we end up racing in our training runs. Am I
right or wrong on this? Sometimes it screws me up as I end up running 2, 3, 4 miles or whatever
much much harder than I had planned. But I do feel good afterwards.

Am I the only one who keeps an awareness of those passing me on daily training runs? Do any of you
find yourself getting "race competitive" on your training runs? I find it so so so hard to resist
a "challenge". I kind of think runner's "know"....it's unspoken but we know when we're racing
against others in our training. I've often been in these situations and then after 3 or 4 miles
and one of us has ended their run we've had a "tip of the cap", a "nod" of recirprocal
acknowledgement and appreciation for the race that brought out 110% effort in both of us.

Andrew....

--
Random number generation is too vital a task to be left to chance.

Globaldisc wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I can't be the only one.

No, you are not the only one and I think it is a good idea every once in a while. Besides, it
can be riot.

I saw an article with Lance Armstrong and he says he strains on training runs so he doesn't strain
so much during a race. Makes it sound like he might even work harder in training than on a race.

I've seen where running all out for 60 - 100 meters helps my 5k performance. The only drawback to
racing someone else in the shorter distances, is it is an easy way to get hurt.

A quick story about today.

There were three of us running a 6 mile course. I was at the tail end. The person in the middle
yells to the first one that he's pushing the pace so we walked a bit.

When we got started again, I ran with the person that was up front. We were doing a pretty good
pace, then we started going up a hill. Next thing I knew we were moving at a real good pace. I was
doing about everything I could, just to keep up with the person next to me. Then I hammered it the
best I could and just barely and I do mean just barely pulled away.

At the top of the hill, I made a joke about time to walk so I started walking and then he started to
walk and then the third person caught up with us.

I guess if I was too burned out to finish the run, that little bit of racing might have been a bad
idea, but we both finished the 6 mile course with power to spare and a time to brag about.

I certainly would not suggest racing flat out the day, or night before a real race.

-2k

Globaldisc said:

Am I the only one who keeps an awareness of those passing me on daily training runs? Do any of you
find yourself getting "race competitive" on your training runs?

To train properly you have to get passed this macho big [censored] contest. It proves nothing and screws
up your hard/easy rhythm.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

(Globaldisc) said:

It's all unspoken.....it's all undelcared.....but we end up racing in our training runs. Am I right
or wrong on this? Sometimes it screws me up as I end up running 2, 3, 4 miles or whatever much much
harder than I had planned. But I do feel good afterwards.

Had a guy at work, who we called "World Training Champion". He just couldn't alternate being
lead runner, he had to finish every "rep" in "first place" and not just by a neck. Do more than
anyone else.

But he wasn't worth squat in races. Ever. And that made him very unhappy, so he trained even harder
and got slower.

But I guess he was happy for about 10 to 15 times one minute per week, when he wupped all our slow,
sorry asses real good.

Doug Freese said:

To train properly you have to get passed this macho big [censored] contest. It proves nothing and screws
up your hard/easy rhythm.

Like I said, macho idiots.

Doug Freese said:

Globaldisc said:

Am I the only one who keeps an awareness of those passing me on daily training runs? Do any of
you find yourself getting "race competitive" on your training runs?

To train properly you have to get passed this macho big [censored] contest. It proves nothing and screws
up your hard/easy rhythm.

Ah come on Doug, admit it; a least once you've run some young whippersnapper into the ground just
for the hell of it. I have. Of course I've had my fair share of of butt kicking too. But it is fun
every once in a while to get into an impromptu "race" and I run because it's fun, not just to train.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of The Diablo Valley *Running - Hiking - Nature*
geocities.com6016Open ↗

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

To train properly you have to get passed this macho big [censored] contest. It proves nothing and screws
up your hard/easy rhythm.

Just as there are social drinkers, there are social runners, where fun is more fun than work.

Besides, some people are allowed to run near all out strides on their hard days.

My friend runs all winter on a banked indoor track...7 laps to the mile.

He says "Nobody has ever passed me twice. Any moron can pass me once but nobody can lap me."

Talk about competitive. :-)

In article said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run?

It's all too easy to succumb to such an urge, and when I run central park (more often these days as
I'm doing longer runs) I notice there are enough people who really can run that you will get
overtaken if you run at your regular training pace. When you get overtaken, it's like an appeal to
your vanity, and there is an urge to "fight back".

But you've got to suppress this urge. Run with a heart rate monitor if that helps. Even though
you're no doubt capable of judging an appropriate pace fairly well *under normal conditions* (when
your ego stays out the way), the heart rate monitor serves as a brutal lesson in reality when you
allow your ego to convince yourself that your pace is "easy".

After a while, you'll just ignore what the other people are doing, and let everyone run at their own
pace. Save your vanity for the race, or better, the last mile of the race.

I think in your case, the reasons to do this are even more compelling -- you already race too often
as it is, without doing so during training.

Quoted message said:

It's all unspoken.....it's all undelcared.....but we end up racing in our training runs. Am I
right or wrong on this? Sometimes it screws me up as I end up running 2, 3, 4 miles or whatever
much much harder than I had planned. But I do feel good afterwards.

It can potentially screw up your training. I sometimes spontaneously turn part of a run into a tempo
run, but I do it on the basis of how *I'm* feeling, and on how well-rested *I* am.

Quoted message said:

Am I the only one who keeps an awareness of those passing me on daily training runs?

I doubt it. But again, you really need to outgrow this. I think a heart rate monitor would
do wonders.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

When you train alone and not with a partner or team...these situations to me are "opportunities"
to work on your racing mode/game.

Seriously, you race three times a month or so. Surely, that's enough opportunity to "work on your
racing mode/game" ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

I've never raced anyone on my run routes, which are pretty heavily populated by other runners. I've
seen the odd runner shooting by me, and I just have to remind myself that that guy is probably doing
a 5K pace, whereas I'm out here to do 10. or that maybe he is doing a surge during a fartlek run,
while i'm doing a longer, slow run.

what i have done a number of times is used another runner's pace as incentive for me to maintain my
pace so that they don't pass me, or in other cases, when i see a runner up ahead who i can't hope to
pass, i'll promise myself i won't let them out of my sight. but that's just a little game i play now
and then, nothing frequent or serious.

just fun and games,

Cam

In article said:

In article said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run?

It's all too easy to succumb to such an urge, and when I run central park (more often these days
as I'm doing longer runs) I notice there are enough people who really can run that you will get
overtaken if you run at your regular training pace. When you get overtaken, it's like an appeal to
your vanity, and there is an urge to "fight back".

But you've got to suppress this urge. Run with a heart rate monitor if that helps. Even though
you're no doubt capable of judging an appropriate pace fairly well *under normal conditions* (when
your ego stays out the way), the heart rate monitor serves as a brutal lesson in reality when you
allow your ego to convince yourself that your pace is "easy".

After a while, you'll just ignore what the other people are doing, and let everyone run at their
own pace. Save your vanity for the race, or better, the last mile of the race.

I think in your case, the reasons to do this are even more compelling -- you already race too
often as it is, without doing so during training.

Quoted message said:

It's all unspoken.....it's all undelcared.....but we end up racing in our training runs. Am I
right or wrong on this? Sometimes it screws me up as I end up running 2, 3, 4 miles or whatever
much much harder than I had planned. But I do feel good afterwards.

It can potentially screw up your training. I sometimes spontaneously turn part of a run into a
tempo run, but I do it on the basis of how *I'm* feeling, and on how well-rested *I* am.

Quoted message said:

Am I the only one who keeps an awareness of those passing me on daily training runs?

I doubt it. But again, you really need to outgrow this. I think a heart rate monitor would do
wonders.

Cheers,

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

[email hidden] (Globaldisc) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run? Seems
every day for the past week I've found myself racing against someone on my training run. Call it
ego or pride....I don't care if I am supposed to be training at 80% or so.....once I sense a
"challenge"....it's on!

I´d call it a lack of peace of mind, a lack of ability to delay gratification into the future, or a
personality trait peculiar to New York and its environs:-)

OTOH there are occasions when I catch sight of a runner ahead of me and notice that he´s *slightly*
faster than I am, that I find myself increasing my pace to maintain the gap and, sometimes, taking
the turns he does even if it makes the run longer than planned - and when I know that he knows what
I´m doing it can be nice innocent fun.

But it´s all done within the framework of the training intensity, I never allow it to become a race:
if the runner ahead of me wants to drop me, good for him, I can wait until such time as we´re both
wearing race numbers - and I never let myself go stupid in an effort to drop someone off my tail.

Mind you, all that rationality goes out the window and the [censored] macho attitude enters from all
doors when I´m on a pair of XC skis:-)

Anders

Globaldisc said:

I don't perceive it as a "macho" thing at all. I gain more when the runner is better than me...or
at least pushes me to go all out. Again....I conclude these situations w/ an acknowledgement to
the other runner of "good job" (for pushing me).

Again....I'm not talking about smashing a weekend warrior runner. I'm talking about daily runner's
pushing each other....and I kind of think they know what's up....they're on the same page...

you can justify it all you want but these mini daily contests proves nothing. If you had a coach
he would read you the riot act. What was that marathon time you were shooting for? Enough said,
your choice.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

The Trailrunner said:

Ah come on Doug, admit it; a least once you've run some young whippersnapper into the ground just
for the hell of it.

I'm not saying that once in a while isn't good for the ego but if find yourself doing it every time
you leave all your good races at the training counter. Andrew is a serious runner with some high
flying goals and these little macho contests help nothing. You let them go silently assuring
yourself that your day is coming. "Know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em." 😉

Quoted message said:

course I've had my fair share of of butt kicking too. But it is fun every once in a while to get
into an impromptu "race" and I run because it's fun, not just to train.

Every once in a while on a hill run I'll pick up the pace very gradually and inch ahead to the top.
When we get to the top and look at their watch they will ask why I did it...to show them I'm old but
not dead. It keeps the young bucks honest knowing the old man can hump with the best. 🙂

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

In article said:

It's all unspoken.....it's all undelcared.....but we end up racing in our training runs. Am I
right or wrong on this? Sometimes it screws me up as I end up running 2, 3, 4 miles or whatever
much much harder than I had planned. But I do feel good afterwards.

Andrew,

Some great thoughts and reflectons from the posters to this thread.

One piece of research from a few years a go:

Watched runners run faster.

The researchers had one or two people on a little hill sitting on the grass that overlooked a
running path. It must have been a looped circuit as they were able to time the individuals as
they ran by.

If the people had their back to the running circuit, there was no change in the runners' speed. If
the people were facing and observing the runners, their speed increased. I thought it was an
interesting piece of research.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗ faqs.orgrunning faqOpen ↗

Listening to the Inner Metronome

Took a friend on a 6 mile training run yesterday morning. He ran 25 on Sunday after spraining his
ankle on Tuesday, nine days ago. The Marine Corps will be his first marathon which his wife, Marine
son, and his daughter will also run.

He is competitive as he has proved in the world of business. It's that situation where he starts to
run at his pace from the get go which is usually 1 to 2 minutes a mile faster than he will be
running his 10 minute/mile marathon pace. While this past Sunday was a stated 20 miler, he went out
and did his 25 and then compared it to being 12 or 15 minutes slower than his 25 miler the previous
week which was done at Tahoe altitude. He couldn't figure it out until I asked him what he did the
night before, knowing he had gone to an anniversary party of some dear friends, had a wonderful
time, drank a goodly amount and ran his 25 in midafternoon which was probably in the 70's...and also
with a recovering sprained ankle.

In miles 3 to 4 we picked it up to a sub 8 for the length of the Convention Center frontage, zipping
past the 10 or 12 TV news camera trucks, out at 5:30 A to get ready to report Arnold's rally which
took place a few hours later. When I slowed down he continued at speed for another 40 or 50 steps
before realizing that I had slowed down.

On the way back, I spoke about the next few weeks of locking into his body the 10 minute/mile pace
and the important to know the feeling.

I mentioned the fact that on the morning of the Marine Corps, he will be carboloaded, rested, and
chomping at the bit. If he can't listen to his body and know what the 10 minute/mile pace feels
like, and if his ego gets carried away by the external environment, the Oz Rule of Foot will surely
once again prevail: Going out 30 seconds to 90 seconds a mile faster in the first 3 to 5 miles of a
marathon can burn off enough glycogen that I predict that the finish time will be 20 minutes to 90
minutes slower than what they could have done starting at their planned race pace or even 10 to 15
seconds a mile slower for the first 3 to 5 miles.

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

you can justify it all you want but these mini daily contests proves nothing. If you had a coach
he would read you the riot act. What was that marathon time you were shooting for? Enough said,
your choice.

Take a look at page 18 of the November 2003 Runners World. In the article by Coach Jack Daniel's
Ph.D. he points out how you can substitute a race for an interval session.

After ending up slightly injured after racing someone at a track workout, I am very careful about
where I push as hard as I can. But, there is something funny about that. After doing a lot of work
for a 1/4 mile uphill sprint, and increasing my short distance speed, the person that beat me before
ended up injured himself when he tried to stay with me on one of my training runs. I didn't even
know he tried until I spoke to someone later about it. Talk about what goes around comes around. ;-)

-2k

In article said:

I can't be the only one. If you run at a place frequented by runners, a runners path or
route.....and you find yourself competively running against others on your training run? Seems
every day for the past week I've found myself racing against someone on my training run. Call it
ego or pride....I don't care if I am supposed to be training at 80% or so.....once I sense a
"challenge"....it's on!

Thought a repost of this story by Chuang Tzu would be of interest when one is steeling oneself for
the race by the training they do with that goal in mind. Single minded focus for creating the future
result by doing to perfection the present...where the future is created.

Ozzie

The Fighting [censored] And The Spirit Of The Olympiad

Triggered by a dialogue on gentlemenly and ladylike behavior of Olympian medal winners by Conal,
Sam, Todd, Daniel, Jeff, Byran, Lab, Kerry, Phil and Andrew

c.2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.

Those of you who will be here 46 years from today to remember the 27th Olympiad of the Modern Era
held in Sydney in the year 2000 will remember only how it touched your spirit. The antics will be
gone. Few will remember the arrogance or immature behavior of certain medalists. You will recall
the heroes who became heroes for the next generation. You will recall how the flame, given to us by
Prometheus, stolen from Mt. Olympus was lit. You will recall the stories of the lives of these
Olympians as they unfolded over the years.

It was lovely to see Betty Cuthbert the Golden Girl 46 years later be pushed in her wheelchair
carrying the Olympic flame. Whatever that spirit is, I felt it as the flame was passed on to the
other Olympians and finally to Kathy Freeman.

Humility is learned in all different ways. And from that humility comes the power to do
impossible things.

The Fighting [censored]

There was a trainer of fighting cocks named Chi Hsing Tzu. He trained them for King Hsuan. As the
spirits would have it, He had a fine bird that he was training.

Constantly King Hsuan would ask: Is the bird ready to fight yet? Is he ready for combat? "No. Not
yet," the trainer would reply. "He is full of himself. He is on fire. He is ready to fight or pick a
fight Instantly with every other bird he sees. He is vain and confident of how strong he is."

Two weeks later, he responded to King Hsuan: "No. Not yet. Even at the crowing of another Bird he
pumps himself up and is ready to fight." Two more weeks and he replied to the King: "No. He is not
ready. He still gets that Angry look in his eye and flares his feathers."

Two more weeks go by. The trainer said, "Ah, he is almost ready. When another bird crows, there
is not even a flicker in his eye. When you see him, he stands perfectly still As if he were a
statue of wood.

He is now mature. He is a fighter. Other birds, when they see him Will take one look at him And
flee." (xix.8) adapted from Thomas Merton's The Way of Chuang Tzu

When one needs to be arrogant, cocky, vain, or puffed up in any way, Freud, Jung or Adler would ask
why must one over react in such a way.

What is it that they are fearful of? What is it that they are attempting to protect themselves from?

There is a spirit of "arete" It was mentioned in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." The
Greek concept of Quality: Doing whatever you do the best you possibly can do. There is no quarter.
It is where ego fades. It is where the archer becomes the arrow. It is daVinci releasing the statue
from the rock within which it lay. It is a moment when the individual shows what is humanly possible
and takes us beyond all barriers and boundaries.

The finger points to the moon. Don't look at the finger. It is only an indicator to show the
direction and what can be. The dreamer of possibilities is also the explorer of impossibilities. If
you think you can, if you think you cannot; you are right.

William Blake said that we are all called to manifest our lives not only in the living of them fully
but also in the poetry and art from the poet and artist within. It is a creative live we live. The
athlete must bring forth the philosopher, the artist, the poet, the hero, the saint. St.George, the
Mark Twain in Running Shoes constantly re-echoed those thoughts of Blake, who was one of his heroes
and constant companions.

So as not to get distracted with the actions of others, we are called back to our own behaviors and
our own actions. But least we forget, Eric Hoffer, a working man like William Blake reminds us:
"Our achievements speak for themselves. What we have to keep track of are our failures,
discouragements, and doubts. We tend to forget the past difficulties, the many false starts, and
the painful groping."

So we step back for a moment and look at what is possible and remember that human world records are
not limits but boundaries and barriers that the human spirit: mind/body/soul pushes up to and breaks
through with a simple childlike statement: Imagine that.

Nel mezzo del cammin De nostra vita Mi retrovai Per un oscure selva.

Commedia Dante Alighieri

In the middle of the road of my life I awoke in a dark wood where the true way was
wholly lost.

David Whyte says: "In three brief lines Dante says that the journey begins right here. In the middle
of the road. Right beneath your feet. This is the place. There is no other place and no other time.
Even if you are successful and follow the road you have set yourself, you can never leave here.
Despite everything you have achieved, life refuses to grant you, and always will refuse to grant
you, immunity from its difficulties." p. 27 (The Heart Aroused. Currency Doubleday, ©1994,
1996)

Truly I live in a time of the Divine Comedy. I like you have no immunity from Life's difficulties
and paradoxes.

For the athlete/philosopher/hero/saint/artist in each of us, I remember the powerful words of
Krishna to Arjuna: "In the heat of battle, keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord."

See you in Athens.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗ faqs.orgrunning faqOpen ↗