training to stay with the break

[bikeguy]

So far this year I've done 3 training races which were between 30 and 50kms. I got some good placings and could make the breaks or bridge across to them. However, once in the break for more than 5kms or so I've been getting dropped and end up waiting for the next group to catch me.
Once I'm in the break and we're going at avg 40+ kmh I find I'm near my max pulse and I don't recover enough between pulls on the front.
Once I'm dropped and back in the bunch I feel good again and can easily attack solo and beat the others to the line in the last few kms.

What do I need to do to improve my ability to stay in the break? Is it my anaerobic system thats limiting me? Which kind of work do I need to fix this and get myself ready for the season proper?
Normally TT'ing is my forté so I'm feeling a bit down about this...

Since you aren't recovering enough between pulls I'd suggest that (like me) you possibly have the following problems: your drafting is subpar or you have trouble recovering from anaerobic efforts. Try repeated efforts of 30 sec in training, with 30 sec rest. Another possibilty is you just get tired far into the race, the only solution is possibly a year or two of training to fix that problem.
If you aren't eating or drinking enough, that will also cause you to fatigue early. Eating a good deal of carbs about 4-6 hrs prior to the race is also a help.

-bikeguy

 

[zaskar]

If your training for long events then the whole issue no matter how you ride is the flatness of your power/duration curve. I think that doing the standard 2x20 isn't going to flatten your curve enought to consider it as the bulk of your training for a long event. You could for example, do 2x60 at a steady (key word here is steady
) pace somewhere in Tempo/L3/whatever your want to call it. And that would provide some very nice flattening of your curve as well as a pretty good boost in FTP. Also these rides burn a load of calories. It takes about 3 hours for that workout but with 3 of those per week plus one at a higher intensity you can see good gains in FTP as well as being well prepared for 150K+ events on about 10 hr/week.


Greg

Greg

Yea that is what I do, Thanks for your input.

 

[bakstreet]

TiMan,

Is FTP the same as LT? Also, how do you suggest your reach a 113%+ of your LT on a trainer. High cadence or a higher tension set on the trainer? If I'm doing everything correctly and I understand what you are saying that would mean I would need to keep my HR at around 190. How do I get and keep it there on a trainer? You don't want the tension so hi that your legs burn out but you don't want it too lose or else you'll be bobbing all over the saddle.

Tom you don't need to do long rides to do very well in longer races. The key is to build your threshold power as high as you can and build a good VO2 max.

Fitness is a byproduct of plenty power at threshold and a good VO2 max. The things that contribute to this the most are mitochondria density, good vascularization to the mitichondria and a strong cardiac output.....all these elements are built through high intensity efforts WAY WAY better than by endurance riding.

The endurance "base" ideation is a myth....a tradition...a habit. That doesn't mean there is no place for longer rides...there is...but once you are in half decent shape the role of endurance rides is mainly to teach the body to store large amounts of gylcogen, to burn body fat and to teach you to handle sitting on the bike for long periods of time.
The whole goal of the base period is to build threshold power.
In fact 20 hours a week at endurance intensity can actually be quite detrimental to the average guy that has a job, wife/girlfriend/kids etc etc. It will slowly drain you and eat away at recuperative powers and lower testosterone...and prevent you from doing much threshold work or even tempo work.

Guys like Dr. Coggan and Greg Lemond know all the above so you will be in good company. Dr Coggan has a 300FTP at about 65 kilo's, 48 years of age...and his busy life allows for about 5 hours a week on the bike!...but smart hours.

Please read these articles.
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

and the practical application of these concepts:

http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down.htm

http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down_2.htm


You have only 6 hours a week to train...spend almost all of it at tempo pace and up...save for warm ups, cools downs and some endurance work once in a while ...and some in the group ride.

Tom I think you should try the program I outlined for you.... do the those three day blocks...then take two days REALLY EASY and then try to get to get in a tough 3 hour group ride with those guys on Saturdays if you can...and then rest on Sundays before repeating the block. Train hard...rest just as hard.
The three days of recovery can be totally off the bike if you like. Perhaps you can go for a walk with your wife or girl friend.
Start the VO2 work now or in a couple weeks (sets of 5 minutes at about 113-115%FTP, with 5 minutes easy between). Drop the VO2 work, most the time, in the off season and focus on threshold work(95-105% FTP, mosty about 95% and some 98-105% as races approach), "sweat spot" rides(88-94% of FTP) and tempo rides( 76-90% of FTP).
You will be amazed at how much you can actually get done in 6 hours a week and how much you will progress.
At your age you CAN build your FTP to at least 4 watts per kilo with 6 hours of training a week...do that and you do very well in masters races at 35-40.

I would HIGHLY suggest that you buy a Kurt Kinetic trainer with it's power meter so some of your work. Make sure to blow a good fan on you as you train with it. This machine is the best trainer under $1800 US BY FAR and allows you to do the tough stuff by power.
To find out your FTP do a 20 minute all out effort on this trainer....and if you have average anaerobic work capacity like most guys then 95% of the average power will be pretty close to 100% FTP for you.

Trainer work makes you very strong for many reasons but mainly because the lack of inertial loading and pressure on the legs through a longer throw of the crank arm causes is unrelenting....it makes the road feel easy actually.
Plus the environment is totally controlled and repeatable...great for threshold and VO2 work.
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/

Then later you'll want to get a Power Tap for outside rides.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....Is FTP the same as LT? ...

I'm not TiMan, but your question is trickier than it sounds. Technically HR at LT is very different than HR at FTP but a lot of the lay literature incorrectly uses the term LT where they should be using OBLA(Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation). LT is technically where your blood lactate first rises above a nominal baseline level which is way below your best one hour pacing or the point where blood lactate exceeds the 4 mmol concentration. Those latter definitions are closer to describing OBLA or FTP. But a lot of authors muddy those lines and use the term LT to describe something similar to FTP efforts. That makes this stuff really confusing. I suspect you're using LT to describe hard steady state pacing for something like a 40 km TT. If so, you're describing FTP. Andy introduced the term FTP (Functional Threshold Power) specifically to avoid the confusion surrounding terms like LT, AT, OBLA, etc. It describes the steady power you can put out for roughly an hour long effort on a well rested day when you're highly motivated. So it's basically your best 40 km TT pacing on your best day or "functionally" the best you can do for a long effort regardless of what your blood lactate is doing.

Anyway, if you have a good idea what HR you settle into for a steady best effort one hour TT then you have a pretty good idea of your HR at FTP. This is probably what you've been calling HR at LT. Personally my HR at FTP varies quite a bit from day to day and drifts upwards during long constant power intervals. This is really clear from the HR and power data I've collected since getting a PM. So I don't find HR very useful for gauging these longer hard efforts. If I watch HR I'll have to constantly back off my effort to keep it in some predefined range. I've attached a screenshot from WKO+ showing a recent 20 minute SST interval with both power and HR visible. Power was pretty darn steady but see how it takes nearly a third of the interval for my HR to reach the average level and then how HR continues to rise all the way to the end. This was during an outdoor ride on a fifty degree day so it's not the typical HR drift you'd associate with trainer rides and over heating. It's certainly possible to use HR to meter out your efforts, but this kind of HR lag and HR drift make it tough.

Also, how do you suggest your reach a 113%+ of your LT on a trainer. High cadence or a higher tension set on the trainer? .... You don't want the tension so hi that your legs burn out but you don't want it too lose or else you'll be bobbing all over the saddle.

113% of FTP or VO2 max pacing (L5) is hard work, whether you get there with a high cadence and lower pedal force or low cadence and high pedal force is secondary. One simulates fast flat riding and the other can simulate hill climbing but either way you're putting out a lot of power and it's hard work. Whether or not your legs burn out is a matter of whether you've estimated your VO2 max pacing well enough for your current fitness. These intervals need to be at least 3 minutes long and 5 is better. If you can't sustain a constant hard effort for at least this long then you're attempting too high a load for your current fitness. If you hit 8 or more minutes and could keep going then you're not working hard enough to target VO2 max adaptations. When I do L5 repeats I'm really hurting by 5 minutes and feel like I'm gonna hurl by 8 minutes if I last that long.

L5 intervals are particularly hard to regulate by HR because it takes nearly 3 minutes for your HR to catch up to the effort and the intervals typically only last 5 minutes. If you try to get your HR up into the L5 zone too soon you'll go much too hard and won't be able to finish. If you don't have a PM then I'd do them on time. It won't take many efforts for you to figure out what you can do for 5 minutes and not much longer.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[bakstreet]

That's exactly what I don't like about training by HR. Because you'll start hammering but your HR doesn't actually catch up to your effort until minutes later. So, say I am doing intervals and I want to do 4 X 5 zone 5, that would be 172 bpm for me. So do I start my timing on that interval as soon as I start putting the effort forth or do I wait until my HR monitor says 172 bpm? Just like you said I might have worked a minute or longer getting my HR up to that.

And like when you say 113% percent of FTP would that really be 190 bmp's if my LT is 171?

I'm not TiMan, but your question is trickier than it sounds. Technically HR at LT is very different than HR at FTP but a lot of the lay literature incorrectly uses the term LT where they should be using OBLA(Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation). LT is technically where your blood lactate first rises above a nominal baseline level which is way below your best one hour pacing or the point where blood lactate exceeds the 4 mmol concentration. Those latter definitions are closer to describing OBLA or FTP. But a lot of authors muddy those lines and use the term LT to describe something similar to FTP efforts. That makes this stuff really confusing. I suspect you're using LT to describe hard steady state pacing for something like a 40 km TT. If so, you're describing FTP. Andy introduced the term FTP (Functional Threshold Power) specifically to avoid the confusion surrounding terms like LT, AT, OBLA, etc. It describes the steady power you can put out for roughly an hour long effort on a well rested day when you're highly motivated. So it's basically your best 40 km TT pacing on your best day or "functionally" the best you can do for a long effort regardless of what your blood lactate is doing.

Anyway, if you have a good idea what HR you settle into for a steady best effort one hour TT then you have a pretty good idea of your HR at FTP. This is probably what you've been calling HR at LT. Personally my HR at FTP varies quite a bit from day to day and drifts upwards during long constant power intervals. This is really clear from the HR and power data I've collected since getting a PM. So I don't find HR very useful for gauging these longer hard efforts. If I watch HR I'll have to constantly back off my effort to keep it in some predefined range. I've attached a screenshot from WKO+ showing a recent 20 minute SST interval with both power and HR visible. Power was pretty darn steady but see how it takes nearly a third of the interval for my HR to reach the average level and then how HR continues to rise all the way to the end. This was during an outdoor ride on a fifty degree day so it's not the typical HR drift you'd associate with trainer rides and over heating. It's certainly possible to use HR to meter out your efforts, but this kind of HR lag and HR drift make it tough.

113% of FTP or VO2 max pacing (L5) is hard work, whether you get there with a high cadence and lower pedal force or low cadence and high pedal force is secondary. One simulates fast flat riding and the other can simulate hill climbing but either way you're putting out a lot of power and it's hard work. Whether or not your legs burn out is a matter of whether you've estimated your VO2 max pacing well enough for your current fitness. These intervals need to be at least 3 minutes long and 5 is better. If you can't sustain a constant hard effort for at least this long then you're attempting too high a load for your current fitness. If you hit 8 or more minutes and could keep going then you're not working hard enough to target VO2 max adaptations. When I do L5 repeats I'm really hurting by 5 minutes and feel like I'm gonna hurl by 8 minutes if I last that long.

L5 intervals are particularly hard to regulate by HR because it takes nearly 3 minutes for your HR to catch up to the effort and the intervals typically only last 5 minutes. If you try to get your HR up into the L5 zone too soon you'll go much too hard and won't be able to finish. If you don't have a PM then I'd do them on time. It won't take many efforts for you to figure out what you can do for 5 minutes and not much longer.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....And like when you say 113% percent of FTP would that really be 190 bmp's if my LT is 171?

According to Hunter and Coggan's book L5 (VO2 Max) work is done at a power of 106% to 120% of FTP (TiMan's 113% is right in the middle) but the corresponding HR is > 106% of your HR at FTP. Your HR could easily hit your personal max during longer L5 intervals but will take at least 2 and typically 2.5 minutes to get up to that level. So if your HR at FTP is 170 then your HR towards the end of L5 intervals will be 180 or greater but don't expect that at the beginning of the intervals.

The bottom line is that HR is a lousy way to gauge L5 or harder work and not even all that good for L4 work. Do your harder intervals based on the best effort you can put out for a given time or preselected distance. It's just easier and equally accurate to do your L5 and L6 intervals that way. If your HR monitor has a memory function you can always review the data later to see how your HR responds to these efforts in terms of lag, drift and average. Don't be a slave to the HRM, especially for these shorter hard efforts where it can be misleading.

If you need numerical data to guide your efforts as you do them, then save up for a power meter since power is useful from the first pedal stroke of an interval where HR and even perceived exertion lag behind making them difficult to use for pacing.

 

[Animator]

TiMan, to change the subject just a tad -- I'm curious if you would recommend any endurance training for a guy that's not going to do any races over 3 hours, with most of them being 45 minutes to 2 hours in length? What I mean is doing 2 hours or more at endurance pace (L2?). Thanks.

 

[Piotr]

TiMan, to change the subject just a tad -- I'm curious if you would recommend any endurance training for a guy that's not going to do any races over 3 hours, with most of them being 45 minutes to 2 hours in length? What I mean is doing 2 hours or more at endurance pace (L2?). Thanks.

I'm also not TiMan, but I think I can answer your post based on what I read here already. I believe it's unnecessary to do longer rides than your target race length. Also, if you want to improve your endurance you're a lot better off trying to do the distance at closer to L3 pace. IOW, same time, but harder effort. 2 hrs at L2 is not likely to do much for you in terms of improvement for a bike race. "Endurance pace" doesn't necessarily mean it improves endurance.

P.S. If you're thinking about upgrading to a higher racing category, naturally you'll want to train as if you had already upgraded.

 

[iliveonnitro]

I'm also not TiMan, but I think I can answer your post based on what I read here already. I believe it's unnecessary to do longer rides than your target race length. Also, if you want to improve your endurance you're a lot better off trying to do the distance at closer to L3 pace. IOW, same time, but harder effort. 2 hrs at L2 is not likely to do much for you in terms of improvement for a bike race. "Endurance pace" doesn't necessarily mean it improves endurance.

P.S. If you're thinking about upgrading to a higher racing category, naturally you'll want to train as if you had already upgraded.

Good advice, and I'd like to add to it. If you are only going to train for 3hrs of riding, as Piotr recommended, do not go under L3. I would try to do the route as fast as you can, and naturally build upon it. If you notice any weak areas, it's time to do intervals there. Go the hardest you can for the time allotted.

I like Coggan's way of thinking (in summary): you need to spend time above your threshold in order to improve your threshold. He's not the first or only one to suggest it; it's more commonly known as "overreaching." So work hard at putting in 45-60+min/wk above your FTP with a good mix of L3 in there.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... like Coggan's way of thinking (in summary): you need to spend time above your threshold in order to improve your threshold. ..

I totally agree with your advice, but it's funny how we can read the same stuff and interpret it differently. I would have characterized Andy's advice as doing a lot of work at or slightly below threshold until you start your final race prep. IOW I read Andy's advice as coming from Lydiard and based on a lot of work slightly below, not above threshold. That seems to be the essence of sweet spot training, not that you should be doing that year round to the exclusion of everything else.