training to stay with the break

[ihana]

So far this year I've done 3 training races which were between 30 and 50kms. I got some good placings and could make the breaks or bridge across to them. However, once in the break for more than 5kms or so I've been getting dropped and end up waiting for the next group to catch me.
Once I'm in the break and we're going at avg 40+ kmh I find I'm near my max pulse and I don't recover enough between pulls on the front.
Once I'm dropped and back in the bunch I feel good again and can easily attack solo and beat the others to the line in the last few kms.

What do I need to do to improve my ability to stay in the break? Is it my anaerobic system thats limiting me? Which kind of work do I need to fix this and get myself ready for the season proper?
Normally TT'ing is my forté so I'm feeling a bit down about this...

 

[frenchyge]

What do I need to do to improve my ability to stay in the break?

Learn to sit in and miss a pull or two if you're that close to popping. Nothing says you have to work yourself *out* of the break once you're in it. You (and the break) are better off if you work a bit when you can, and just stay out of the way when you can't.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Learn to sit in and miss a pull or two if you're that close to popping. Nothing says you have to work yourself *out* of the break once you're in it. You (and the break) are better off if you work a bit when you can, and just stay out of the way when you can't.

exactly... in addition if they start looking at you funny.. just let them know the deal... look guys i'm going to work when i can...

when you bridge up to a break take a few turns off to catch your breath, then start working.

it is an unwritten rule though that if you don't participate in a break and you don't have a team mate doing double duty, you don't contest the sprint... don't be a george hincapie... or people will stop working you.. next time it'll be.. that's the guy who sits in an then goes around you, make sure you drop him out of the break...

it's in your interest to help the break succeed... but only as long as you are in it... you should do as much work as you can without getting dropped and still be competative for the finale... that could be anywhere from not pulling at all to pulling the entire way... only caveate is if you are sacreficing yourself for a team mate... if you aren't though.. why would you being doing all this work for other teams with no benefit to yourself or your team?

 

[otb4evr]

So far this year I've done 3 training races which were between 30 and 50kms. I got some good placings and could make the breaks or bridge across to them. However, once in the break for more than 5kms or so I've been getting dropped and end up waiting for the next group to catch me.
Once I'm in the break and we're going at avg 40+ kmh I find I'm near my max pulse and I don't recover enough between pulls on the front.
Once I'm dropped and back in the bunch I feel good again and can easily attack solo and beat the others to the line in the last few kms.

What do I need to do to improve my ability to stay in the break? Is it my anaerobic system thats limiting me? Which kind of work do I need to fix this and get myself ready for the season proper?
Normally TT'ing is my forté so I'm feeling a bit down about this...

I would say that it is your anaerobic capacity that is limiting you.

Do 1 - 1 1/2 minute intervals with 5 - 7 minutes recovery between each to increase your AC...

Start with 5 - 8 reps per workout and 1 workout per week and increase to 15 - 20 minutes total time per workout and 2 - 3 workouts a week. Anaerobic capacity usually comes around quickly, so only do a 4 - 6 week focus on it.

It can be done as a maintanence workout the rest of the year though...

Jim

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I would say that it is your anaerobic capacity that is limiting you....

I disagree, the OP says he has no trouble making the breaks or bridging to them, that's where anaerobic capacity comes into play. According to his post the trouble comes after more than 5km with the breakaway group. At 50 kph that's still 6 minutes into the break. Sounds to me like he needs to work on a combo of V02 max work and FTP work. Given his strong TT results I'd focus on VO2 max intervals of 3 to 8 minutes.

That's the training take on it, but I agree with frenchyge and DoctorSpoc about the tactical side of things. You've gotta work in a break as long as it's in your best interest but never to the point of getting yourself dropped. A wheelsucking reputation will make future races more difficult, but helping your opponents drop you is just foolish.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[TiMan]

I disagree, the OP says he has no trouble making the breaks or bridging to them, that's where anaerobic capacity comes into play. According to his post the trouble comes after more than 5km with the breakaway group. At 50 kph that's still 6 minutes into the break. Sounds to me like he needs to work on a combo of V02 max work and FTP work. Given his strong TT results I'd focus on VO2 max intervals of 3 to 8 minutes.

That's the training take on it, but I agree with frenchyge and DoctorSpoc about the tactical side of things. You've gotta work in a break as long as it's in your best interest but never to the point of getting yourself dropped. A wheelsucking reputation will make future races more difficult, but helping your opponents drop you is just foolish.

Good luck,
-Dave

YES!


However, I would lean towards FTP being the culprit more so than VO2 max I think..... but yes work VO2 as well. TT's may be your strength, so you think your FTP is your strength, BUT but the guys in the break either have higher FTP or they draft a lot more than you. My guess is that they have a higher FTP.

What Cat are your racing in and what is your FTP?

You hang in there for 5 K and then crack...you are riding above your FTP for a good chunk of that and that's what makes you crack.

Solution......draft and do easy short pulls...DRAFT!!!
Then work on increasing your FTP in training. Work up to 3-4 hours at 92-100% per week, including a group ride. Try block training the threshold work in training like this...for starters....

Day one and AFTER A REST DAY do 4 X 5 at 113-115% FTP...work up to one or two more intervals. Then do 1 X 10 at 100% FTP..work up to 1 X 20
Day two 2 X 20 at 95-95% FTP...work to 3 X 20....add some tempo if you want to work more at 85% FTP
Day three 2X 20 at 92- 95%...work to 3 X 20..add some tempo if you like but less than the first day...at 80-85% FTP

That's tough work...volume isn't high but it is way harder, and way more effective at growing mitochondria and increasing cardiac output than putting around at endurance pace for hours on end......and that's what makes you FIT!
Then take two days of recovery riding for 30-60 minutes each day...REALLY EASY...HR like 115 NO PRESSURE AT ALL on the legs...NO HILLS. Did I say EASY!!! NO endurance riding AT ALL!

Then hit a hard group ride and hog the front at times if need be in order to get in an hour at threshold in the ride.

Train HARD but REST just as hard

 

[otb4evr]

I disagree, the OP says he has no trouble making the breaks or bridging to them, that's where anaerobic capacity comes into play. According to his post the trouble comes after more than 5km with the breakaway group. At 50 kph that's still 6 minutes into the break. Sounds to me like he needs to work on a combo of V02 max work and FTP work. Given his strong TT results I'd focus on VO2 max intervals of 3 to 8 minutes.

That's the training take on it, but I agree with frenchyge and DoctorSpoc about the tactical side of things. You've gotta work in a break as long as it's in your best interest but never to the point of getting yourself dropped. A wheelsucking reputation will make future races more difficult, but helping your opponents drop you is just foolish.

Good luck,
-Dave

Dave and Timan,

It was these lines that made me think anaerobic: (Emphasis is mine)

ihana[/b]]Once I'm in the break and we're going at avg 40+ kmh I find I'm near my max pulse and I don't recover enough between pulls on the front.
Once I'm dropped and back in the bunch I feel good again and can easily attack solo and beat the others to the line in the last few kms.

You are not going to pull over 3 minutes in a break. Typical pulls are 30 secs to 1 1/2 mins.

I stand by my initial response.

Jim

 

[daveryanwyoming]

....You are not going to pull over 3 minutes in a break. Typical pulls are 30 secs to 1 1/2 mins....

Yeah, but if you're burning a match by dipping into your anaerobic capacity for each and every pull in a break you'd better be darn near the finish or on the make or break climb. If he's getting dropped consistently 5km after joining the break you can bet the other riders in the break aren't spending their precious AC reserves with each and every pull. That gets back to the need to boost FTP and VO2 max to stay with the break.

I'd buy your argument if he got dropped in the closing kilometers or on the killer climb where everybody is pulling out all the stops but riders in a sucessful break can't spend that much with every pull unless they're nearing the finish.

I guess another way to say it is you can either work on your AC since you have to go anaerobic on each pull or you can work on your aerobic systems (VO2 max and FTP) so you can stay aerobic on your pulls. No one can go anaerobic too many times in a row so the better bet is to avoid going there more often than necessary. If you doubt this, try doing 20x1 minute L6 reps with say 2 minute L4 rests. Can you really do that for an hour?

 

[otb4evr]

Yeah, but if you're burning a match by dipping into your anaerobic capacity for each and every pull in a break you'd better be darn near the finish or on the make or break climb. If he's getting dropped consistently 5km after joining the break you can bet the other riders in the break aren't spending their precious AC reserves with each and every pull. That gets back to the need to boost FTP and VO2 max to stay with the break.

I'd buy your argument if he got dropped in the closing kilometers or on the killer climb where everybody is pulling out all the stops but riders in a sucessful break can't spend that much with every pull unless they're nearing the finish.

I guess another way to say it is you can either work on your AC since you have to go anaerobic on each pull or you can work on your aerobic systems (VO2 max and FTP) so you can stay aerobic on your pulls. No one can go anaerobic too many times in a row so the better bet is to avoid going there more often than necessary. If you doubt this, try doing 20x1 minute L6 reps with say 2 minute L4 rests. Can you really do that for an hour?

Dave,

As a time trialist, how much FTP work do you think the OP does vs. short AC building work?

Jim

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Dave,

As a time trialist, how much FTP work do you think the OP does vs. short AC building work?

Jim

Apparently not enough if he's consistently making the break or sucessfully bridging but then losing it 6 to 8 minutes later. But that was my line of thinking when I suggested VO2 max work, I figured a strong TT rider would already have a high FTP vs. his peers.

Looking back he says TTs are his forte', not that he necessarily dominates vs. the same riders. He also says he has no trouble attacking and beating the peloton in the closing kms. That would indicate pretty good AC as would his bridging ability. Maybe he's naturally a downward slope or inverted V kind of a guy. Regardless of how he currently trains the experience he relates calls for better aerobic fitness.

Training FTP along with VO2 max will raise his ability to hang at a high steady pace, working AC won't help there but it might allow a few more deep pulls before he gets dropped. Bottom line if you've gotta constantly reach into your anaerobic reserves to stay with a break you're not going to stay there long. If it's a matter of coping with surges, attacks and short climbs then fine I'm with you but that's not what I gathered from his post.

-Dave

 

[TiMan]

Apparently not enough if he's consistently making the break or sucessfully bridging but then losing it 6 to 8 minutes later. But that was my line of thinking when I suggested VO2 max work, I figured a strong TT rider would already have a high FTP vs. his peers.

Looking back he says TTs are his forte', not that he necessarily dominates vs. the same riders. He also says he has no trouble attacking and beating the peloton in the closing kms. That would indicate pretty good AC as would his bridging ability. Maybe he's naturally a downward slope or inverted V kind of a guy. Regardless of how he currently trains the experience he relates calls for better aerobic fitness.

Training FTP along with VO2 max will raise his ability to hang at a high steady pace, working AC won't help there but it might allow a few more deep pulls before he gets dropped. Bottom line if you've gotta constantly reach into your anaerobic reserves to stay with a break you're not going to stay there long. If it's a matter of coping with surges, attacks and short climbs then fine I'm with you but that's not what I gathered from his post.

-Dave

Well said...spot on!

 

[ihana]

thanks for the excellent advice guys...
One of the factors in the small breaks is that I'm 195cm/6'5" and most of the the other guys are a lot smaller than me, so they get a great rest behind me and I get a fair bit less behind them...
I'm not the kind of rider who won't do his turn to get the break away, once away I'll obviously try and keep something back for the end.

But its the VO2 max and FTP that needs work, as you say, I've only just started doing 2x20mins sessions which I do on a forest trail up the mountain outside my office. My training time is limited to around 6 hours a week plus a 9km commute each way to work. I do very hilly circuits of either 30 or 50kms at lunchtime on the road bike with sprints thrown in and I go hard (at threshold level then sprint to the top) up all the hills, the longest of which takes 12 minutes. Avg training speed is about 29-30kmh. I'm starting to do more structured intervals around now and at least thanks to this advice I know which direction to head!

As for my category - I'm 36 so its 'Masters'. Competition seems to be made up of high level amateurs (young guys in proper teams who race in UCI 1.2, 2.1 etc and Swiss national level) and the odd ex-pro...
I'm going to stay clear of races much more than 100kms as I don't have time to do the endurance training.

Tom

.

 

[TiMan]

thanks for the excellent advice guys...
One of the factors in the small breaks is that I'm 195cm/6'5" and most of the the other guys are a lot smaller than me, so they get a great rest behind me and I get a fair bit less behind them...
I'm not the kind of rider who won't do his turn to get the break away, once away I'll obviously try and keep something back for the end.

But its the VO2 max and FTP that needs work, as you say, I've only just started doing 2x20mins sessions which I do on a forest trail up the mountain outside my office. My training time is limited to around 6 hours a week plus a 9km commute each way to work. I do very hilly circuits of either 30 or 50kms at lunchtime on the road bike with sprints thrown in and I go hard (at threshold level then sprint to the top) up all the hills, the longest of which takes 12 minutes. Avg training speed is about 29-30kmh. I'm starting to do more structured intervals around now and at least thanks to this advice I know which direction to head!

As for my category - I'm 36 so its 'Masters'. Competition seems to be made up of high level amateurs (young guys in proper teams who race in UCI 1.2, 2.1 etc and Swiss national level) and the odd ex-pro...
I'm going to stay clear of races much more than 100kms as I don't have time to do the endurance training.

Tom

.

Tom you don't need to do long rides to do very well in longer races. The key is to build your threshold power as high as you can and build a good VO2 max.

Fitness is a byproduct of plenty power at threshold and a good VO2 max. The things that contribute to this the most are mitochondria density, good vascularization to the mitichondria and a strong cardiac output.....all these elements are built through high intensity efforts WAY WAY better than by endurance riding.

The endurance "base" ideation is a myth....a tradition...a habit. That doesn't mean there is no place for longer rides...there is...but once you are in half decent shape the role of endurance rides is mainly to teach the body to store large amounts of gylcogen, to burn body fat and to teach you to handle sitting on the bike for long periods of time.
The whole goal of the base period is to build threshold power.
In fact 20 hours a week at endurance intensity can actually be quite detrimental to the average guy that has a job, wife/girlfriend/kids etc etc. It will slowly drain you and eat away at recuperative powers and lower testosterone...and prevent you from doing much threshold work or even tempo work.

Guys like Dr. Coggan and Greg Lemond know all the above so you will be in good company. Dr Coggan has a 300FTP at about 65 kilo's, 48 years of age...and his busy life allows for about 5 hours a week on the bike!...but smart hours.

Please read these articles.
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

and the practical application of these concepts:

http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down.htm

http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down_2.htm


You have only 6 hours a week to train...spend almost all of it at tempo pace and up...save for warm ups, cools downs and some endurance work once in a while ...and some in the group ride.

Tom I think you should try the program I outlined for you.... do the those three day blocks...then take two days REALLY EASY and then try to get to get in a tough 3 hour group ride with those guys on Saturdays if you can...and then rest on Sundays before repeating the block. Train hard...rest just as hard.
The three days of recovery can be totally off the bike if you like. Perhaps you can go for a walk with your wife or girl friend.
Start the VO2 work now or in a couple weeks (sets of 5 minutes at about 113-115%FTP, with 5 minutes easy between). Drop the VO2 work, most the time, in the off season and focus on threshold work(95-105% FTP, mosty about 95% and some 98-105% as races approach), "sweat spot" rides(88-94% of FTP) and tempo rides( 76-90% of FTP).
You will be amazed at how much you can actually get done in 6 hours a week and how much you will progress.
At your age you CAN build your FTP to at least 4 watts per kilo with 6 hours of training a week...do that and you do very well in masters races at 35-40.

I would HIGHLY suggest that you buy a Kurt Kinetic trainer with it's power meter so some of your work. Make sure to blow a good fan on you as you train with it. This machine is the best trainer under $1800 US BY FAR and allows you to do the tough stuff by power.
To find out your FTP do a 20 minute all out effort on this trainer....and if you have average anaerobic work capacity like most guys then 95% of the average power will be pretty close to 100% FTP for you.

Trainer work makes you very strong for many reasons but mainly because the lack of inertial loading and pressure on the legs through a longer throw of the crank arm causes is unrelenting....it makes the road feel easy actually.
Plus the environment is totally controlled and repeatable...great for threshold and VO2 work.
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/

Then later you'll want to get a Power Tap for outside rides.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[ihana]

I'll give it a shot and see how I go - got a few weeks until the next training races and the season proper starts - I can compare myself then.
Just got over 5 days of flu so I'm raring to go again.

cheers,

Tom

 

[linusrees]

only 6 hours a week to train...spend almost all of it at tempo pace and up...save for warm ups, cools downs and some endurance work once in a while ...and some in the group ride.

How often would you suggest doing the long endurance ride? Currently I try to do a long ride mostly with a club run about 4-6 hours non-stop every weekend or every fortnight. I did 150k yesterday @ 24 kph, which was my last day of 9 weeks of base training and my longest single ride this year. Are you suggesting perhaps once a month instead? In fact I'm minded to do the long ride every three weeks as I work on a three week training cycle with the third week being easier.

My target distance is 140 to 200k as I like to do cyclosportives. I also do 15k ITTs. Between now and the Ronde van Vlaanderen cyclosportive I'll mostly be working on VO2 max and FTP as you have suggested.

Linus

 

[TiMan]

How often would you suggest doing the long endurance ride? Currently I try to do a long ride mostly with a club run about 4-6 hours non-stop every weekend or every fortnight. I did 150k yesterday @ 24 kph, which was my last day of 9 weeks of base training and my longest single ride this year. Are you suggesting perhaps once a month instead? In fact I'm minded to do the long ride every three weeks as I work on a three week training cycle with the third week being easier.

My target distance is 140 to 200k as I like to do cyclosportives. I also do 15k ITTs. Between now and the Ronde van Vlaanderen cyclosportive I'll mostly be working on VO2 max and FTP as you have suggested.

Linus

Once week is fine but I wouldn't do a six hour ride every week. If you do verfy long rides like that weekly it will interfere with your ability to train hard(fast) and it will also kick the **** out of most men's testosterone production and that isn't good for recovery or sex drive. You don't have to do 140- 200 K rides at all in order to do very well in a 140- 200 K event...... Your ability to go long at a "winners" pace has to do with your FTP and VO2 max...and being sure to stay well hydrated and carbed up. Mental toughness comes into play too of course.

Not even marathoners, who need to train the body to take the physical pounding of a marathon, train for marathon length in one run. They will build up to about a 22-23 miler and maybe a couple times before a marathon.

If I had to wager on two guys in a 200K event that had the same body weight...and one guy had an FTP of 300 watts and did long rides, and the other guy had a 350 FTP and never trained more than an 1.5 hours at one time for the event then my money would be on the 350 guy. The only advantage that the 300 watt "long rider" MIGHT have is increased glycogen storage, due to the training affect of long rides, but then again stored glycogen is going to be pretty much wiped out after a few hours at a decent clip.

 

[iliveonnitro]

To find out your FTP do a 20 minute all out effort on this trainer....and if you have average anaerobic work capacity like most guys then 95% of the average power will be pretty close to 100% FTP for you.

Solid advice, but I would like to throw in my $.02. A single 20 min all-out effort is not enough to give you an accurate FTP reading. 2x20min w/10-15min rest between efforts, and taking the power from the second effort, is a much more accurate way of predicting FTP.

there has been some great advice coming from this thread -- from all sides. It makes me feel fast just reading about it

 

[Uhl]

A single 20 min all-out effort is not enough to give you an accurate FTP reading. 2x20min w/10-15min rest between efforts, and taking the power from the second effort, is a much more accurate way of predicting FTP.

If you're going to do 2x20 with 10-15min rest, might as well do a full 1x60. I realize it's torture, especially on a trainer, but it would give you your true FTP, without the need for any fudge factors.

Hey, what's 20 minutes more suffering? This is bike racing, right!?

 

[zaskar]

If I had to wager on two guys in a 200K event that had the same body weight...and one guy had an FTP of 300 watts and did long rides, and the other guy had a 350 FTP and never trained more than an 1.5 hours at one time for the event then my money would be on the 350 guy. The only advantage that the 300 watt "long rider" MIGHT have is increased glycogen storage, due to the training affect of long rides, but then again stored glycogen is going to be pretty much wiped out after a few hours at a decent clip.

I would wager on the 350 guy to he has more power. seriously though, if you can help me understand. The guy who rides for 1.5 hours is not use to burning the calories. So if he burns say 1300 cals on his training rides what happens when he gets in a long race and now the expenture is 2600 cals+? wont he have more fatigue then the guy who rides long? Seems he would cramp easier to and bonk and just be to tired to give it hell to the finish.

 

[gvanwagner]

I would wager on the 350 guy to he has more power. seriously though, if you can help me understand. The guy who rides for 1.5 hours is not use to burning the calories. So if he burns say 1300 cals on his training rides what happens when he gets in a long race and now the expenture is 2600 cals+? wont he have more fatigue then the guy who rides long? Seems he would cramp easier to and bonk and just be to tired to give it hell to the finish.

If your training for long events then the whole issue no matter how you ride is the flatness of your power/duration curve. I think that doing the standard 2x20 isn't going to flatten your curve enought to consider it as the bulk of your training for a long event. You could for example, do 2x60 at a steady (key word here is steady
) pace somewhere in Tempo/L3/whatever your want to call it. And that would provide some very nice flattening of your curve as well as a pretty good boost in FTP. Also these rides burn a load of calories. It takes about 3 hours for that workout but with 3 of those per week plus one at a higher intensity you can see good gains in FTP as well as being well prepared for 150K+ events on about 10 hr/week.

300-350 is a huge difference but I think that with a 25 watt difference the "long rider" probably has a dead flat P/D curve and would have a clear advantage. That being said if FTP is calculated the way most people do it then that changes it's ability to represent "flatness" as well as if it's routinely based on AVE power from a full 60 min.

Trying to do both long events and 15k TTs on a short time schedule provides some interesting planning difficulties.


Greg

Greg