Training Question on swimming

Why is 38 minutes for a 1/2 IM too long?

OK, very good swimmers will be out in 25ish, a big pack in the low to mid 30's. Some will
take an hour.

38 minutes will be fine for your first 1/2.... in my opinion.

Wim

"Marcus Schnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool,

maybe

Quoted message said:

more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can

complete

Quoted message said:

the swim leg without trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can not
only complete the swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter swim
would be a 38 minute session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the race, what should I
concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target time would be a
realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

If you don't have a lot of open water experience you'll shave more time practicing outdoors
navigation than cutting a couple seconds off your indoors 100m times. Last year I did a 1/2 IM after
training with indoor pool times similar to yours. As a result of not having done an outdoor swim in
over a year prior to the race I ended up wandering the course and getting lost on numerous occasions
resulting in a 48 minute swim :-(

Marcus Schnell wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool,

maybe

Quoted message said:

more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can

complete

Quoted message said:

the swim leg without trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can not
only complete the swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter swim
would be a 38 minute session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the race, what should I
concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target time would be a
realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

"Marcus Schnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool, maybe more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can complete the swim leg without
trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can not only complete the
swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter swim would be a 38 minute
session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the race, what should I
concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target time would be a
realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

IMHO, you're not training enough in the pool to get anywhere near your full potential. Try to swim 3
times a week and shoot for 3500-4000 meters each time. That shouldn't take more than 75 minutes.
That will more than double your output to nearly 10,000 meters a week. You should see a lot of
improvement with that.

-Eric

Wim Colgate said:

Why is 38 minutes for a 1/2 IM too long?

OK, very good swimmers will be out in 25ish, a big pack in the low to mid 30's. Some will
take an hour.

38 minutes will be fine for your first 1/2.... in my opinion.

Indeed. In looking at a few of the major olympic courses in San Francisco, doing the 1500 in 30
minutes will get you out at about the first third of the race. That would translate to 39 minutes
for a 1.2mi.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Are you doing kick-turns in the pool? I do not and when swimming next to someone who does it seems
to greatly improve your time. Of course in an open water swim a kick-turn is not available. A lot of
time is wasted I think in turning around in the pool.

I would also recommend a wetsuit and doing some practice open water swims to get your siting down. I
did my first 1/2 IM last fall ... and the wetsuit and practice really helped.

BBB

"BillX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you don't have a lot of open water experience you'll shave more time practicing outdoors
navigation than cutting a couple seconds off your indoors 100m times. Last year I did a 1/2 IM
after training with indoor pool times similar to yours. As a result of not having done an outdoor

swim

Quoted message said:

in over a year prior to the race I ended up wandering the course and

getting

Quoted message said:

lost on numerous occasions resulting in a 48 minute swim :-(

Marcus Schnell wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool,

maybe

Quoted message said:

more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can

complete

Quoted message said:

the swim leg without trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can not
only complete the swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter swim
would be a 38

minute

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the

race,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what should I concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target
time would be a realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

"Wim Colgate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Why is 38 minutes for a 1/2 IM too long?

OK, very good swimmers will be out in 25ish, a big pack in the low to mid 30's. Some will take
an hour.

38 minutes will be fine for your first 1/2.... in my opinion.

Pool times are usually faster than open water times. Different factors apply, such as waves,
current, navigation, no wall push-off, crowded conditions\swimmer wake, etc. In other words, doing
2:00 per 100m in the pool does not mean that you can swim this fast in open water.

Regarding training, a number of things come to mind. First, do some time in the open water. If
possible, swim the course on occasion, both to get accustomed to it (and the navigation). This
should also give you a better idea as to what time you should expect in the race.

Second, in the pool, you need to do interval training. You might try 3 sets of 5x100, with
decreasing times. This is where you will build up your speed. Take your normal 100m time, add 15sec
rest for the first interval set, then decrease 5-10 sec per each set. The first set should be easy
enough to continue, hard enough to make you work a bit. The last set should have you swimming hard.

Third, strength training is important as well. Often people think that because they can press\bench
a good amount, they have good upper body strength. However, swimming uses muscles that are often
overlooked - lats and triceps are critical here. For distance swimming, you need to concentrate on
reps more than weight.

Lastly, a big mistake most people make sacrificing efficiency in exchange for turnover, thinking
that a higher turnover will make you go faster. Often, exactly the opposite is the case, especially
in swimming distances. Take time to work on the stroke, concentrating on maintaining "long and
strong" strokes, following through completely. (The last part of the stroke is the one most often
ignored by many swimmers). GLIDE through the water. Allow your body to maximize distance per
stroke. You might count strokes per length and work on decreasing the number (strengthening will
help this!).

Without seeing your stroke, I cannot suggest much more, but you may find this to be a good start.

4precious said:

IMHO, you're not training enough in the pool to get anywhere near your full potential. Try to swim
3 times a week and shoot for 3500-4000 meters each time. That shouldn't take more than 75 minutes.
That will more than double your output to nearly 10,000 meters a week. You should see a lot of
improvement with that.

-Eric

I disagree.

While your suggestion to swim three times per week has merit, the distances you suggest are
extreme. 4000 meters amounts to an ironman swim three times per week. Marcus is only training for
a 1/2 IM and he's not trying to win the thing. Those kinds of distances aren't necessary to cover
the distance.

Specifically, his question was about getting faster - which is almost entirely an issue of
technique. You don't improve technique by exhausting yourself every workout. I'd suggest getting
some advice on your stroke/technique (either from a coach, masters class, TI workshop, whatever)
then continue doing the 2000m workouts, but do them more often. In that respect I agree with
"4precious'" 3x per week suggestion.

John

[email hidden] (4precious) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Marcus Schnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool, maybe more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can complete the swim leg
without trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can not only
complete the swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter swim would
be a 38 minute session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the race, what should I
concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target time would be
a realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

IMHO, you're not training enough in the pool to get anywhere near your full potential. Try to swim
3 times a week and shoot for 3500-4000 meters each time. That shouldn't take more than 75 minutes.
That will more than double your output to nearly 10,000 meters a week. You should see a lot of
improvement with that.

-Eric

Good advice. Figure on needing to have training distances roughly 2x your race distance. You need to
be able to comfortably swim farther than you will in the 1/2 IM, especially since the pool is easier
than open water. The best way to do this is to increase your training distances.

The good news is that you have a LONG time to work up to this. Your race is 9 months off yet -
that's a heck of a lot of time. I wouldn't be focusing so much on distance right now, rather, work
on technique, strength, and some speed. IMHO, your present training distances are more than adequate
for that. Doing much more now risks both burnout and tendonitis. (Take it from someone who has been
there on both of these!) Come late summer, start building up your training distances slowly into
October, when you should be able to do 3500-4000 comfortably.

Odd how different areas have different strength and/or depth. In New Zealand, a 30 minute 1500m
would have got you 218th out of 277 in the most recent Olympic distance race. To get to the top
1/3rd in that race you would have needed under 25 mins. Translate upwards as appropriate for
1/2 Ironman.

38 minutes for a half swim is fine. Concentrate on stamina and efficiency so that when you get out
of the water you can make use of your strengths. STF

Jason O'Rourke said:

Wim Colgate said:

Why is 38 minutes for a 1/2 IM too long?

OK, very good swimmers will be out in 25ish, a big pack in the low to mid 30's. Some will take
an hour.

38 minutes will be fine for your first 1/2.... in my opinion.

Indeed. In looking at a few of the major olympic courses in San Francisco, doing the 1500 in 30
minutes will get you out at about the first third of the race. That would translate to 39 minutes
for a 1.2mi.

"topdog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Take time to work on the stroke, concentrating on

Quoted message said:

maintaining "long and strong" strokes, following through completely. (The last part of the stroke
is the one most often ignored by many swimmers). GLIDE through the water. Allow your body to
maximize distance per stroke.

Watch out, here comes Larry!

"Billy Boone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Are you doing kick-turns in the pool? I do not and when swimming next to someone who does it seems
to greatly improve your time. Of course in an open water swim a kick-turn is not available. A lot
of time is wasted I think in turning around in the pool.

I would also recommend a wetsuit and doing some practice open water swims to get your siting down.
I did my first 1/2 IM last fall ... and the wetsuit and practice really helped.

BBB

"BillX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you don't have a lot of open water experience you'll shave more time practicing outdoors
navigation than cutting a couple seconds off your indoors 100m times. Last year I did a 1/2 IM
after training with indoor pool times similar to yours. As a result of not having done an
outdoor

swim

Quoted message said:

in over a year prior to the race I ended up wandering the course and

getting

Quoted message said:

lost on numerous occasions resulting in a 48 minute swim :-(

Marcus Schnell wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool,

maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can

complete

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the swim leg without trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can
not only complete the swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter
swim would be a 38

minute

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the

race,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what should I concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target
time would be a realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

Marcus, study on open water drafting.... Catch a free ride... Best of luck!

Quoted message said:

While your suggestion to swim three times per week has merit, the distances you suggest are
extreme. 4000 meters amounts to an ironman swim three times per week. Marcus is only training for
a 1/2 IM and he's not trying to win the thing. Those kinds of distances aren't necessary to cover
the distance.

Specifically, his question was about getting faster - which is almost entirely an issue of
technique. You don't improve technique by exhausting yourself every workout. I'd suggest getting
some advice on your stroke/technique (either from a coach, masters class, TI workshop, whatever)
then continue doing the 2000m workouts, but do them more often. In that respect I agree with
"4precious'" 3x per week suggestion.

Agreed for the most part. With 9 months to go, stroke work, speed work, weights, etc are probably
the best places to focus for now, and his present distances should be more than sufficient for that.

However, he was also wanting to have a decent time - to do that, at some point he will have to
increase distance a good bit (though that time is not until the race is much closer). His race
distance is a good bit longer than his workout distance, plus it's in open water to boot. In order
to maintain his desired pace throughout the race, he needs to train longer distances down the road.
Otherwise he may well hit a wall halfway through his race, which will make both the rest of his
swim, as well as other legs, much slower. But again, he has a long time to do this, and there's much
more to focus on now.

In rec.sport.triathlon John Hardt said:

On 2/19/03 11:20 AM, in article, "4precious" wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IMHO, you're not training enough in the pool to get anywhere near your full potential. Try to
swim 3 times a week and shoot for 3500-4000 meters each time. That shouldn't take more than 75
minutes. That will more than double your output to nearly 10,000 meters a week. You should see a
lot of improvement with that.

-Eric

Quoted message said:

I disagree.

Quoted message said:

While your suggestion to swim three times per week has merit, the distances you suggest are
extreme. 4000 meters amounts to an ironman swim three times per week. Marcus is only training for
a 1/2 IM and he's not trying to win the thing. Those kinds of distances aren't necessary to cover
the distance.

4000 isn't extreme; it's a reasonable upper bound for what a lot of masters swim workouts are
like. For instance, peek at the Mountain View Masters page:

mvm.orgmvm practices.htmlOpen ↗

From their workout yesterday: 600 warmup / drills / technique focus 600 drill set 2400 main set
200 cooldown.

This seems fairly typical. I did about 3850 yesterday with the MIT masters group (which cut the
workout short by about 350 from what the faster folks
did). If you're trying to focus on improving your swim - which I am, and whih it sounds like the
original poster is - these aren't unreasonable workouts at all. It takes away a bit from the
time I have to bike, but the combination of swimming with a clueful coach, good teammates, and
getting some distance in has really helped.

Quoted message said:

Specifically, his question was about getting faster - which is almost entirely an issue of
technique. You don't improve technique by exhausting yourself every workout. I'd suggest getting
some advice on your

... and note that a 3500y workout really isn't exhausting. The first one might be, but as your
technique gets better, swimming two miles in a workout isn't bad at all.

-Dave

--
work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
angio.netangio.netOpen ↗ (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed...) bulk emailers: I do
not accept unsolicited email. Do not mail me.

A couple of days ago I watched a former Stanford swimmer doing laps at my local Y. What struck me
(other than his totally effortless perfect swim stroke) was how much distance he got underwater in
each stroke. Take this out to open water swimming. The wetsuit will help, but you will still be
swimming more strokes than the same distance in a pool. Also figure in the whole open water
orientation issue, waves, and crowded starts. Best bet for anyone doing Olympic distance or more is
to get some open water time in....as much as you can. Swimming in a pool is boring anyway. It's akin
to running on a treadmill or sitting on the trainer.

Next week is my first SF BAy Aquatic Park swim of the year....55 degrees (brrr).

"Billy Boone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Are you doing kick-turns in the pool? I do not and when swimming next to someone who does it seems
to greatly improve your time. Of course in an open water swim a kick-turn is not available. A lot
of time is wasted I think in turning around in the pool.

I would also recommend a wetsuit and doing some practice open water swims to get your siting down.
I did my first 1/2 IM last fall ... and the wetsuit and practice really helped.

BBB

"BillX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you don't have a lot of open water experience you'll shave more time practicing outdoors
navigation than cutting a couple seconds off your indoors 100m times. Last year I did a 1/2 IM
after training with indoor pool times similar to yours. As a result of not having done an
outdoor

swim

Quoted message said:

in over a year prior to the race I ended up wandering the course and

getting

Quoted message said:

lost on numerous occasions resulting in a 48 minute swim :-(

Marcus Schnell wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm a 35 year old male age group triathlete and have competed in sprint events only so far. I
have signed up for a half-ironman on November 23. I have a question regarding my swim training
for this event.

Traditionally, swimming has always been my weakest link in each race. Currently, I swim twice a
week, covering between 1500 and 2000 meters in each session. I can comfortably swim 1000 meters
non-stop in the pool,

maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more. However, my pace is hovering around the 1:50 to 2:00 for 100m.

Now, given that I have 9 months to train I have no doubt that I can

complete

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the swim leg without trouble. I am, however, looking at maximising my training so that I can
not only complete the swim, but maybe post a reasonable time as well. At 2:00, the 1900 meter
swim would be a 38

minute

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

session.... too long.

Question now is: Given the amount of time I have between now and the

race,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what should I concentrate on in order to maximise the gains I can make in the swim? What target
time would be a realistic goal and how best would I achieve it?

Thanks, Marcus

Stewart Fleming said:

Odd how different areas have different strength and/or depth. In New Zealand, a 30 minute 1500m
would have got you 218th out of 277 in the most recent Olympic distance race. To get to the top
1/3rd in that race you would have needed under 25 mins. Translate upwards as appropriate for
1/2 Ironman.

But most were wearing wetsuits, right? I've never used a wetsuit, but I've seen the advantage a good
wetsuit can provide even to novice swimmers - several minutes over an 800 or 1500 M swim. Salt water
also provides a slight advantage of increased buoyancy. But then again, maybe New Zealand simply has
better swimmers than the U.S.

Quoted message said:

38 minutes for a half swim is fine. Concentrate on stamina and efficiency so that when you get out
of the water you can make use of your strengths. STF

Jason O'Rourke said:

Wim Colgate said:

Why is 38 minutes for a 1/2 IM too long?

OK, very good swimmers will be out in 25ish, a big pack in the low to mid 30's. Some will take
an hour.

38 minutes will be fine for your first 1/2.... in my opinion.

Indeed. In looking at a few of the major olympic courses in San Francisco, doing the 1500 in 30
minutes will get you out at about the first third of the race. That would translate to 39 minutes
for a 1.2mi.

Radioactive Man said:

Quoted message said:

Odd how different areas have different strength and/or depth. In New Zealand, a 30 minute 1500m
would have got you 218th out of 277 in the most recent Olympic distance race. To get to the top
1/3rd in that race you would have needed under 25 mins. Translate upwards as appropriate for 1/2
Ironman.

But most were wearing wetsuits, right? I've never used a wetsuit, but I've seen the advantage a
good wetsuit can provide even to novice swimmers - several minutes over an 800 or 1500 M swim. Salt
water also provides a slight advantage of increased buoyancy. But then again, maybe New Zealand
simply has better swimmers than the U.S.

SF would be salt water for Treasure Island, fresh for Wildflower. I imagine wetsuits for everyone -
SF will be in the 50s, WF I have no idea.

But the fields are much bigger - 1000-1300 in each. I'll venture that the smaller crowd is a better
crowd, and have fewer TnT and other first time charity triathletes as in SF.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Dave Andersen said:

4000 isn't extreme; it's a reasonable upper bound for what a lot of masters swim workouts are
like. For instance, peek at the Mountain View Masters page:

They're not running and biking 3x a week too.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Dave Andersen said:

Total, ~10 hours. I do less biking than most people on r.s.t. are probably doing, and a bit more
swimming, but the total volume is probably similar, and reasonable for someone who's working on
improving his swim.

The guy's doing his first 1/2, concerned that a 38 min split would be too pokey. It's good enough
that he need not focus his energy on it, rather than the 56mi ride, and the following 1/2M. If he
too were going 10hrs a week, he shouldn't be spending more than 30% of his time in the pool.

For the speed triathletes go, I'm not convinced that logging oddles of swim mileage helps. We're not
sprinting that section. I've done decent on the sport swims, and "ok" on the longer ones (nav
issues) with far less time.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Chris Maginn said:

Next week is my first SF BAy Aquatic Park swim of the year....55 degrees (brrr).

I haven't managed to get in yet, but I've been *seriously* nearly thinking about driving near there
the last 4 weekends.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com