Training...longer or faster?

Chuck said:

I've been running regularly for about 4 months now, working up to 20
miles/wk at 4-5 miles/day. My training pace is slowly dropping, and right
now I'm at about 11:00/mile.

My question is this: As my running progresses should I be concentrating on
running longer, or running faster?

As you improve, you'll be able to run faster at the same effort level. The
pace will gradually increase as result, but you shouldn't change the effort
level.

You could consider running longer -- but 1hr/day M-F plus a long run (2hrs) on
the weekend is already plenty. Just keep at it for a while, and you will
probably get substantially faster.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As you improve, you'll be able to run faster at the same effort level. The
pace will gradually increase as result, but you shouldn't change the

effort

Quoted message said:

level.

I've been keeping my runs between 70-80% mhr (as per Bob Glover's books).
Indeed, especially in the last two or three weeks or so I have noticed that
my pace has rapidly increased, with no specific extra effort other than to
maintain my HR in the proper zone, per Bob.

The thing is, at some point the gains I'm making will have to end, and at
that point I'll have to change my training somewhat in order to see further
gains, I would suppose.

Quoted message said:

You could consider running longer -- but 1hr/day M-F plus a long run

(2hrs) on

Quoted message said:

the weekend is already plenty. Just keep at it for a while, and you will
probably get substantially faster.

Longer, yes. Esp. if my goals are marthon/50k/50 miler, etc. I'm going to
have to change jobs, or alter my daily schedule significantly if I'm going
to get my mileage up to a point where I can consider doing longer races than
10k.

I can't imagine what I'm going to have to do when I start working up to
50k/50 milers, or a 100 miler for that matter. I read about some ultra guys
that were running 100 mile weeks in training. I'm going to have to
basically turn my whole life upside down and inside out in order to put in
anywhere close to that kind of training mileage. Of course, those guys were
trying to win, whereas I will be more concerned about merely finishing.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Thank you!
C.

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<TLfTd.29098$uc.27076@trnddc01>...

Quoted message said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As you improve, you'll be able to run faster at the same effort level. The
pace will gradually increase as result, but you shouldn't change the

effort

Quoted message said:

level.

I've been keeping my runs between 70-80% mhr (as per Bob Glover's books).
Indeed, especially in the last two or three weeks or so I have noticed that
my pace has rapidly increased, with no specific extra effort other than to
maintain my HR in the proper zone, per Bob.

The thing is, at some point the gains I'm making will have to end, and at
that point I'll have to change my training somewhat in order to see further
gains, I would suppose.

Quoted message said:

You could consider running longer -- but 1hr/day M-F plus a long run

(2hrs) on

Quoted message said:

the weekend is already plenty. Just keep at it for a while, and you will
probably get substantially faster.

Longer, yes. Esp. if my goals are marthon/50k/50 miler, etc. I'm going to
have to change jobs, or alter my daily schedule significantly if I'm going
to get my mileage up to a point where I can consider doing longer races than
10k.

I can't imagine what I'm going to have to do when I start working up to
50k/50 milers, or a 100 miler for that matter. I read about some ultra guys
that were running 100 mile weeks in training. I'm going to have to
basically turn my whole life upside down and inside out in order to put in
anywhere close to that kind of training mileage. Of course, those guys were
trying to win, whereas I will be more concerned about merely finishing.

Paula Radcliffe runs 140+ miles in training.

Is it your aim to go for ultra distance? Why, if I might ask? I've
been running for over 20 years, and have done about 10 marathons, near
100 half marathons, but have never, ever felt the urge to go beyond
26.2 miles. For my money, it takes a special kind of runner (someone
with a great deal of time to train, allied with a very high pain
threshold) to run ultras, and at this early stage of development you
may not fall into that category. Horses for courses, you know!

Good luck

Edward
--
The reading group's reading group:
http://www.bookgroup.org.uk

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TLfTd.29098$uc.27076@trnddc01...

Quoted message said:

I can't imagine what I'm going to have to do when I start working up
to
50k/50 milers, or a 100 miler for that matter. I read about some
ultra guys
that were running 100 mile weeks in training. I'm going to have to
basically turn my whole life upside down and inside out in order to
put in
anywhere close to that kind of training mileage. Of course, those
guys were
trying to win, whereas I will be more concerned about merely
finishing.

Your last sentence says it all. It's a general misconception that one
needs to do mega-miles to run ultras. I finish in the top 25% and I'm
an old fart with mileage seldom exceeding 60 a week and I say I'm
average with mileage. It quality not necessarily quantity that will get
you to the finish line. Been at the ultra game for 15 years and the only
"turning upside down" was reserving my Saturday's for my long runs.

-DougF

"Edward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paula Radcliffe runs 140+ miles in training.

Is it your aim to go for ultra distance? Why, if I might ask? I've
been running for over 20 years, and have done about 10 marathons, near
100 half marathons, but have never, ever felt the urge to go beyond
26.2 miles.

I found roads and short races boring and moved up to longer distances -
diffferent strokes for different folks.

Quoted message said:

For my money, it takes a special kind of runner (someone
with a great deal of time to train, allied with a very high pain
threshold) to run ultras, and at this early stage of development you
may not fall into that category.

Horse manure! Do you think we are all masochists that add bamboo
shavings to our food to stay in constant discomfort? Stop by an ultra
some time a see how many regular people show up to run. You are equating
run and puke near anaerobic marathons and shorter with ultra running
which is not even close.

-DougF

Tim Downie said:

The only attribute you really need to be an ultra runner is self

confidence.

That and the ability to be alone with yourself. And the need to keep
running away from something:-)

Quoted message said:

Anyone who can train for and run a reasonable marathon could run an

ultra.

If Bernd Heinrich is correct, it is less alien for the human
physiognomy to run an ultra than to run a relatively fast marathon.
(Heinrich could run a relatively fast marathon, or a couple of them in
a row, though.)

Quoted message said:

You've just got to stop believing that you can't!

And to stop asking yourself "Why would I run an ultra?", I suppose?

Quoted message said:

Until I ran my first 1/2 marathon, I *knew* that I could never run a
marathon. Once I ran my first marathon I realised that I didn't

really know

Quoted message said:

what I couldn't do.

I used to know I could run a marathon, but for a long time I couldn´t
see any point in doing something I knew I could do. Then I ran a
marathon without any other reason that it was what other runners were
doing - and then I knew why I would run another:-)

Anders

anders said:

Tim Downie said:

The only attribute you really need to be an ultra runner is self
confidence.

That and the ability to be alone with yourself. And the need to keep
running away from something:-)

It's chasing you too huh? ;-)

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've just got to stop believing that you can't!

And to stop asking yourself "Why would I run an ultra?", I suppose?

You need a reason for everything?? ;-)

Tim

Chuck said:

The thing is, at some point the gains I'm making will have to end, and at
that point I'll have to change my training somewhat in order to see further
gains, I would suppose.

I would advise deferring the worrying about changes to "that point" -- because
"that point" is still quite some way ahead of you.

Quoted message said:

Longer, yes. Esp. if my goals are marthon/50k/50 miler, etc. I'm going to
have to change jobs, or alter my daily schedule significantly if I'm going
to get my mileage up to a point where I can consider doing longer races than
10k.

Not a matter of more milage so much as it is getting in specific training, and
some long runs (as Doug hinted at). One hour a day plus a 2hr run on weekend
is plenty of training.

Quoted message said:

I can't imagine what I'm going to have to do when I start working up to
50k/50 milers, or a 100 miler for that matter. I read about some ultra guys
that were running 100 mile weeks in training. I'm going to have to

Some milers and nearly all of the top 10k runners also do 100 mile weeks in
training (probably *all* if you're talking about international class runners).
That doesn't mean that you need to do 100 mile weeks in order to finish a 1
mile or a 10k race.

To train to finish a marathon, you need to train yourself to complete 20 mile
training runs in reasonable comfort.

And to train to finish a half-marathon ? What you're doing now is just fine. I
bet you could complete one already, if you wanted to.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Edward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paula Radcliffe runs 140+ miles in training.

Isn't it her job to train? I mean, she doesn't have a regular 9-5 kind of
job, I would guess.

Quoted message said:

Is it your aim to go for ultra distance? Why, if I might ask?

Well, I need some solid intermediate and long term goals to stay motivated
in the short term. It may be that I never reach the sort of level where I
can run a 100-miler, but without the intermediate goals I must reach to get
there, I have a hard time staying motovated. If I'm going to do something,
I need to try and constantly improve myself, or I'm going to wander off and
find other goals. That's just my personality. I have done some
long-distance cycling in the past when I was younger, and I've always
enjoyed that long, lonely effort.

Quoted message said:

I've
been running for over 20 years, and have done about 10 marathons, near
100 half marathons, but have never, ever felt the urge to go beyond
26.2 miles. For my money, it takes a special kind of runner (someone
with a great deal of time to train, allied with a very high pain
threshold) to run ultras, and at this early stage of development you
may not fall into that category. Horses for courses, you know!

I hear what you are saying. It may be that I reach my marathon goal in the
fall of this year, and decide going further is not for me. But, I need
those goals to work toward after the marathon in order to stay motivated
now. That's just my nature.

I guess we'll see what happens.
Chuck

Chuck said:

I've been running regularly for about 4 months now, working up to 20
miles/wk at 4-5 miles/day. My training pace is slowly dropping, and

right

Quoted message said:

now I'm at about 11:00/mile.

My question is this: As my running progresses should I be

concentrating on

Quoted message said:

running longer, or running faster?

After 4 months, I'd have to say both. Since your goals are mainly
longer runs, though, I'd say running longer is your emphasis. Maybe
just throw in one speed session per week, and maybe throw some
occasional Fartlek into your long runs.

Quoted message said:

I have the time for a 1 hour run every day M-F, and on Sat/Sun I have

plenty

Quoted message said:

of time to pretty much run as long and as hard and as far as I want.

I

Quoted message said:

should mention that I will also be cross training on my road bike and

my

Quoted message said:

mountain bike at least one if not two days a week as soon as spring

fully

Quoted message said:

hits.

That's plenty of time. Make sure to throw in some easy days. The
amount of time you have to dedicate to this could lead to a very
demanding program.

Quoted message said:

My short term goals are to run a 1/2 marathon in early summer, and

full

Quoted message said:

marathon in Sep/Oct time frame. I haven't picked a particular event

yet,

Quoted message said:

but there's good ones in both those time frames. My long term goals

are to

Quoted message said:

complete a 50k and a 50 miler in 2006, and possibly a 100 miler

sometime

Quoted message said:

after that.

Any thoughts?

C.

Sounds pretty impressive, but your timeline may be overly ambitious.
Have you run any shorter races like 5Ks and 10Ks? It's far better to
work up the scale of distances as your physical condition warrants,
rather than trying to force a schedule, which carries the risk of
injury.

Good luck!

"Helix" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sounds pretty impressive, but your timeline may be overly ambitious.
Have you run any shorter races like 5Ks and 10Ks? It's far better to
work up the scale of distances as your physical condition warrants,
rather than trying to force a schedule, which carries the risk of
injury.

Good luck!

Believe me, I fully realize how ambitious this sounds, and I'm fully
prepared to modify my expectations in either direction based on my fitness.
That's exactly why I have not concretely scheduled any of my races yet. I
want to work on my fitness some more and see how I feel in the 4-6 weeks
leading up to the race before I make a final decision. A couple of years
ago, the last time I took up running I started way, way too fast, and ended
up not being able to run for 6 months due to injuries. (Actually, that's
when I discovered cycling.) I am not going to go through that again. Slow
and steady wins the race, that's my motto now. Plus, at my age (a stone's
throw from 40), I realize it takes more training, and more rest, to reach
the same goals as when I was 20 or 30. That doesn't mean I can't get there,
I know that, it's just the journey takes a little longer.

To answer your question, I have not run a real 5k in probably 15 years. I
am going to a 5k in March that I know of for sure, and I'm planning on doing
some more in the near future, plus at least two long bike rides (centuries)
in March and April as well.

Thank you!
C.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:13:29 -0500, [email hidden] (Biker

Kya) said:

My question is: Why would anybody *bother* to hike 100 km in just 2
days?

Probably for the same reason someone climbed from Base Camp to the
top of Mount Everest and back down in 18 hours and 20 minutes,
reaching the summit in 10 hours, 56 minutes and 45 seconds. Why?
Because he could.

Quoted message said:

Well, I suppose if my life depended on it I would at least try.
But why do it on purpose? All you would see would be your boot tops.
You'd not have any time to actually enjoy the country you were walking
through. (Running through?)

Perhaps they had already seen the country and did it for the
challenge, the climber who set the current Everest record had already
been to the top nine times before. I'm sure he knows what it looks
like by now. 🙂

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:5VnTd.39625$uc.2268@trnddc08...

Quoted message said:

"Edward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paula Radcliffe runs 140+ miles in training.

Isn't it her job to train? I mean, she doesn't have a regular 9-5
kind of
job, I would guess.

Quoted message said:

Is it your aim to go for ultra distance? Why, if I might ask?

Well, I need some solid intermediate and long term goals to stay
motivated
in the short term.

Yes, short, medium and long term goals are essential to motivation. To
run day after day just for "health" gets old especially when it
cold/hot/wet/etc.

Quoted message said:

It may be that I never reach the sort of level where I
can run a 100-miler, but without the intermediate goals I must reach
to get
there, I have a hard time staying motovated. If I'm going to do
something,
I need to try and constantly improve myself, or I'm going to wander
off and
find other goals. That's just my personality.

It's what makes many runners tick.

Quoted message said:

I have done some
long-distance cycling in the past when I was younger, and I've always
enjoyed that long, lonely effort.

Enjoying running alone or even racing alone is a necessity for ultras.
Hell, I've toed the line at a race with 300 runners and have run for
hours and only seen people at aid stations. There's a lot of truth to
the adage, "loneliness of the long distance runner." If one can not
tolerate or appreciate the quiet they had best stick with congested road
races or valleyball(coed beach).

Quoted message said:

I hear what you are saying. It may be that I reach my marathon goal
in the
fall of this year, and decide going further is not for me.

But understand that when you go further don't compare the balls to the
wall marathon to a 50k or longer trail run. At the risk of ad nausium,
you will run slower and feel better after a 50k than marathon. If you
try to run a 50k or longer as you do a marathon, bring your personally
endorsed body bag. Don't confuse running at that aerobic/anaerobic
threshold of the marathon with power running. Once you understand this
notion you have an infinite set of future goals by fine tuning distance,
terrain difficulty, location, elevation, heat, cold just to name a few.

You'll nver look back. 😉

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

But understand that when you go further don't compare the balls to the
wall marathon to a 50k or longer trail run. At the risk of ad
nausium, you will run slower and feel better after a 50k than
marathon. If you try to run a 50k or longer as you do a marathon,
bring your personally endorsed body bag. Don't confuse running at
that aerobic/anaerobic threshold of the marathon with power running.
Once you understand this notion you have an infinite set of future
goals by fine tuning distance, terrain difficulty, location,
elevation, heat, cold just to name a few.

You might as well add Badwater to your plans now. ;-)
(http://www.badwaterultra.com/)

Tim
(who's beginning to wish he'd never heard of it or just read Kirk Johnson's
book "To the Edge"😉

Chuck wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Helix" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sounds pretty impressive, but your timeline may be overly ambitious.
Have you run any shorter races like 5Ks and 10Ks? It's far better to
work up the scale of distances as your physical condition warrants,
rather than trying to force a schedule, which carries the risk of
injury.

Good luck!

Believe me, I fully realize how ambitious this sounds, and I'm fully
prepared to modify my expectations in either direction based on my fitness.
That's exactly why I have not concretely scheduled any of my races yet. I
want to work on my fitness some more and see how I feel in the 4-6 weeks
leading up to the race before I make a final decision. A couple of years
ago, the last time I took up running I started way, way too fast, and ended
up not being able to run for 6 months due to injuries. (Actually, that's
when I discovered cycling.) I am not going to go through that again. Slow
and steady wins the race, that's my motto now. Plus, at my age (a stone's
throw from 40), I realize it takes more training, and more rest, to reach
the same goals as when I was 20 or 30. That doesn't mean I can't get

there,

Quoted message said:

I know that, it's just the journey takes a little longer.

To answer your question, I have not run a real 5k in probably 15 years. I
am going to a 5k in March that I know of for sure, and I'm planning on

doing

Quoted message said:

some more in the near future, plus at least two long bike rides (centuries)
in March and April as well.

Thank you!
C.

Just a warning, which you may or may not find applies to you, very long bike
rides could hurt your running in a variety of ways. I've found that in order
to have the residual energy to do the required long runs (training for a 50k
last year), I had to cut my bike rides back in both frequency and duration.

In terms of measuring yourself with shorter races like 5k's, I'd say do them
if you enjoy them, but to me at least, they're very different beasts from
longer races, and are unnecessary. The more important benchmarks for a
marathon effort are 10 miles and HM, but if you're just aiming to finish I'd
take a more relaxed approach in terms of time goals, as for races beyond the
marathon.

-Tony

You never look back? D.F. said
Not evan for pizza.
or a guy with an axes.

man this snow and attacks on my nature a drag.
this week has got to be the slickest in a long time.

i.d being used all over the country and I am getting taxes for it.

I am never going to pay them.....I did not do this.

man if I had a nickel for every M F who told me this threat here and
still not do any thing about it.

there so full of it.

For the last time.
These land stealers are not my doing that your bosses say you can't
work,and I know you have families.........Use your own land homes and
money... and 4 the last time.....2 years 3near 4 month with no job...and
you all never care.so why should I...jesus there f bing
impossible............ cops said I have a harassment charge on them if I
file the paper work.
Now that I now who you our........
Ultra perk...I seen things.....and I no wreathed live.
see how they like it when I come after them....
cops say I can't. or I go to jail...........

they say o.k. I well take you to court.........
For what............ I still here.......

levied by a guy (friend) who did not levied,. butt comes from the same
post office and is a forgery. man these people are land grabbing
criminals in up front business and I know who.
and our after this friend is the truth Not me......

when you think you have it settled..They pull you right back into it
again............
a prep of long and many hours/days out on the streets. I know what most
don't...... ultra perk.

in other words I now know were they live or cars and work from... and
number many on who is and why.... Kaw a bungee dudes......

miles successes......

broke chain on bike

electric wires burn snap breaker no fire....

attack by man sort of with axes.

man wanted by police wants me to say he just search areas before
work.....pounds sticks in ground.
by crooked bosses in my opinion.......

got his license plate and truck make.
if police not come, well throw away.
PRIVATE PROPERTY DUDE PUT YOUR JOB AND JUNK CARS ELSE WERE>>.........
threaten to be sued.

irs on back again......

and to top it off....this snow never quits.
...
total burned up.

and again all because a farmer not cut by the road for 2 years then and
still coming every [censored] roach war mangle is out for the developers
that are all cowards and hide like [censored] they all our......

only thing he told me in 30 years heels. is jesus what do I have o do
to keep them off my land.

cut the grass.......

oh hell they tasted the land.......
your screwed............

rich is so funny how they can disc a pear like ninja vanish.........
or really in a warm area getting sun with there millions.......... or in
there high paying power gov offices firing people who don't help
them....
for 2 dollars. and when a land lot sell you well get your
cut........$5.00...........as she drives away in her big white
caddie........small one. her husband has the long one.
and too think she is 3 areas out of her turf......butt I won't
tell............35 years before I work here and [censored] on her
friend..........
our we all watching now...maybe team like husband and wife would still
work at the p.o. and have a lee house............ butt NOOoooooooo there
no such thing as team in business. just do what she says, not what she
means.
flint......sam as p.o.levi forge sent from wit a print of one of the
hackers robot servants a cross the letter head.
mum your ink print of irs forms need works..
and labels and evvelopes cost more then $2,00 for steelingpeople
writeing and i.r.s. form....well maybe a job too....... Not mine because
my job is [censored] on........
oh please cops jest let me hit here ummmmmmm

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You might as well add Badwater to your plans now. ;-)
(http://www.badwaterultra.com/)

Barkley then Badwater. 😉

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You might as well add Badwater to your plans now. ;-)
(http://www.badwaterultra.com/)

Barkley then Badwater. 😉

You mean there's *another* one I've got to do?

Tim

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, short, medium and long term goals are essential to motivation. To
run day after day just for "health" gets old especially when it
cold/hot/wet/etc.

Agreed. I think that's why I've tried running in the past and it didn't
"stick" very well.

Quoted message said:

Enjoying running alone or even racing alone is a necessity for ultras.
Hell, I've toed the line at a race with 300 runners and have run for
hours and only seen people at aid stations. There's a lot of truth to
the adage, "loneliness of the long distance runner." If one can not
tolerate or appreciate the quiet they had best stick with congested road
races or valleyball(coed beach).

Oh yes, I enjoy the time alone very much. I love running (and cycling)
alone. I guess it's that whole man against nature and himself kind of
thing. There is a certain kind of clarity of both thought and action that
comes from that kind of lonely effort.

Of course, I don't mind an occasional run or ride along with my buddies, but
if it's a good training day, I want to be by myself.

Regards,
C.