Training intensity question

Training in zone 2-3 will build endurance and give your cardio a good base to build on. don't worry about your speed, you will get faster after many hours of training in the endurance zones.

zaskar said:

Training in zone 2-3 will build endurance and give your cardio a good base to build on. don't worry about your speed, you will get faster after many hours of training in the endurance zones.

Exactly, stay in your endurance zones, and as you lose weight and increase your fitness you'll get faster. Later you can add muscular endurance excercises to increase your power, but build your aerobic engine first. Also, since you're trying to lose weight you're probably thinking about your diet. Remember as you increase your work level you'll be increasing your dietary needs too. Don't short change the diet trying to lose the weight too fast. (Does that make sense?)

Quoted post said:

Remember as you increase your work level you'll be increasing your dietary needs too. Don't short change the diet trying to lose the weight too fast. (Does that make sense?)

I've been alternating between eating 2000 Kcal per day on weeks 1 and 2, and 2500 Kcal per day on week 3 and 4. These calories are coming mostly from chicken, tuna, brown rice, whole wheat couscous, sweet potatoes, brocolli, green beans, applesauce, etc.. I also do resistance training 4 days per week. Doing this I've lost 12 lbs in 4 weeks, so I think I'm on the right track weight loss wise. I just feel like I'm not working very hard at Zone 2, so I get a little anxious 🙂.

I guess I should only climb into Zones 4 and 5 while doing Interval Training and climbing?

Only 2000 Cal at your age/height/weight when you count in the expenditures for ridins seems really low to be feeding yourself.

I'm only recently riding again and i'm 6'4", 200lbs 25y.o. and my basal metabolism is like 2000, and thats just laying in bed completely still. With daily activities, going to work, walking around and whatnot, its up to ~3000Cal, include a 20 mile ride and that number jumps to 4000-4300Cal. If you're operating at a 2000 cal deficeit, then you're likely burning muscle, not fat.

Quoted post said:

Only 2000 Cal at your age/height/weight when you count in the expenditures for ridins seems really low to be feeding yourself.

I've only been losing 2-3 lbs a week, but if that number goes up any more I will add more calories to compensate. I'm only riding about 70 miles a week at the moment. I'm also doing weight training and eating a lot of lean protien to try to limit muscle loss. I actually seem to have gained muscle and my waist measurement at the umbilicus has shrunk ~2 inches. I don't know we will see!

After a couple months of riding in your endurance zone then do 1-2 rides per week just below what you think you could hold in a hard steady effort for 45 minutes. This is lactate threshold trianing and it will burn more calories and get you into better shape than just doing endurance stuff.

So 1-2 times per week try this......endurance for an hour then 20 minutes pretty hard but not as hard as you could go for 45 minutes if you were time trialing.Then finish the workout with 10 minutes of easy spinning.

Work you way up to two sets of 20 minutes..with a ten minute endurance spin between efforts.

I recommned two good meals a day and that's it. I have always had great success with this plan.
This is how you do it........eat a good breakfast and a late lunch, say at 2-3pm. Eat no more for the day, except after you ride eat about 100grams of carbs and some protein with it.

Buy some whey protein and drink a shake of it(30 grams) with skim milk if you can't handle the hunger. The protein will help "hold you over"......but try not to eat A THING after 6pm.

It is important to go to bed feeling hungry.

DO NOT cut the carbs very much...but there is some cutting back.

Ride 6 days a week if you can.

This will loose you 2-3 pounds a week which is about as much as you want to loose per week.

Spacegh()st said:

I've only been losing 2-3 lbs a week, but if that number goes up any more I will add more calories to compensate. I'm only riding about 70 miles a week at the moment. I'm also doing weight training and eating a lot of lean protien to try to limit muscle loss. I actually seem to have gained muscle and my waist measurement at the umbilicus has shrunk ~2 inches. I don't know we will see!

Don't worry that you're not working hard enough, that's why you have the heart rate monitor. Keep thinking about the incredible base you want to build. Don't add mileage too fast, in fact mileage is dependant on lots of factors like terrain, weather (wind etc..) so sometimes (mostly) think more about the time you're in your Zones than the miles. Also, as a predominantly ex-strength trainer turned into a predominantly aerobic bike rider I can tell you don't short change the (complex) carbs, especially as you ramp up the time you spend on the bike. For long rides get your protein (and pre-meal) about 3 hours before, add a drink with some protein after a couple of hours into, (with carbs also) and ditto for right after in a recovery drink for example. That'll get more important as you increase your workload. Also, you should find a good source (one that agrees with you) of on-the-bike fuel (liquid). Depending on your goals, fitness, racing, you can find your balance. Don't forget the passive stretching, bike riders can get pretty bound up.

Kind of confusing isn't it? First off HRM’s are great as long as you are part of the 30% that the Karvonens theory agrees with or that has actually gone and had a stress test done with a doctor. It’s hard to say exactly how much anyone of us burn in number of calories in a single session. And though it is true what many publications have said that lower endurance training will burn more fat as a percentage of calories consumed-the amount of time one needs to burn those calories is significantly higher then one that gets uncomfortable and works at a higher intensity. If you are one that has limited time and wants to become more fit and perform better you need to overload your system enough that causes it to over come its short fall in calories, neuromuscular and cardio/vascular by rebuilding itself. One needs to work out as hard as they can without hurting themselves, defeating themselves or needing too much recovery that it negates the amount of work and progress that was achieved.
Seat time

I think I'm going to follow Carmicheal's training program outlined in "7 Days..."... seems to be working so far. I was initially having a problem keeping my HR down in the Zone 2 range, but in the past week I find that my high intensity rides have paid some dividends and I able to keep the HR down better. I did 22 miles on my Sunday ride yesterday and it felt AWESOME! My first ride of that length. Going to try for 30 miles next weekend. Is there a big difference between the effort required for 20 and 30 miles? I drove the 30 mile route yesterday and it seemed very long!

Carmichael's plan keeps me almost exclusively in Zone 2 for the next five weeks. A little in Zone 3 and a few sprinting drills thrown in. Any advice is much appreciated! Thanks all!

Spacegh()st said:

I think I'm going to follow Carmicheal's training program outlined in "7 Days..."... seems to be working so far. I was initially having a problem keeping my HR down in the Zone 2 range, ...

All you need to do is ride slower. In the Spring when I get out on my knobby tired MTB, CTS' Zone 2 puts me at about 10 - 11 MPH average.

Quoted post said:

but in the past week I find that my high intensity rides have paid some dividends and I able to keep the HR down better.

Your heart could also be lower due to the onset of fatigue. I'd be a bit skeptical that you have had any significant training adaptations in a week's time.

Quoted post said:

Carmichael's plan keeps me almost exclusively in Zone 2 for the next five weeks. A little in Zone 3 and a few sprinting drills thrown in. Any advice is much appreciated! Thanks all!

Spending gobs of time in CTS's Zone 2 will condition you to spend gobs of time in Zone 2. Don't expect to be dramatically faster training at such low effort levels.

I hear the naysayers chiming in already so I'll put it to rest here. While it's supposedly true that Lance Armstrong does (or did when the "seven weeks till" book was written) 4 to 6 hour training rides at around 62% of his max heart rate, Lance is training for a very very long multi-day road race. His training reflects that single event. If the average Joe is not training for a multi-day multi-stage road race, then their training should NOT reflect that type of training. Specificity is king.

The biggest advantage of riding in such a low HR zone is that you can ride as much as you want every day and still recover enough to do it again the next day.

Spacegh()st said:

I've only been losing 2-3 lbs a week, but if that number goes up any more I will add more calories to compensate. I'm only riding about 70 miles a week at the moment. I'm also doing weight training and eating a lot of lean protien to try to limit muscle loss. I actually seem to have gained muscle and my waist measurement at the umbilicus has shrunk ~2 inches. I don't know we will see!

I'd be careful about trying to lose that much weight per week AND trying to obtain higher levels of fitness. They are conflicting goals. High fitness levels NEED calories in order to sustain the hard work necessary to complete the workouts.

You may be able to lose 2 - 3 lbs a week AND get fitter for now as it sounds like you have just started an exercise program. By trying to do both at some point your progress will halt. Try to lose the weight first THEN work on high fitness levels. Carbsl also aid in the recovery process so don't cut yourself too short.

Based on anohter post of yours in this thread, if your spending the bulk of your time in CTS' Zone 2 as precribed by "Seven Weeks till", then you most likely won't have a problem.

Another thing to consider is if you are losing bodyweight rapidly you are also losing muscle weight, which in the long run will wreck your metabolism. Lean muscle weight is a great fat burner. 3 lbs a week sound on the high side to me. Again, if you've recently started on a workout regimen, then you may be able to add some muscle while losing fat and still lose 3 lbs a week. But that will not continue much past the beginning stages of a routine. It is just not sustainable.

In reading your posts it sounds like you are trying to achieve several goals at the same time - weight training, weight loss, cycling fitness. This will only be possible in the very beginning unless you are taking any recovery agents in the form of anabolic steroids or HGH. Then it's possible. I know from experience. At some point you will have to pick priorities.

PS. huge quantities of protien is overkill. Having spent many years around bodybuilders I can tell you from first hand experience that they tend to be obsessive compulsive about their protien requirements. Most people in Western Culturs tend to eat too much protien. There is one forum member here (a cycling coach in fact) who is a total vegetarian who does not supplement his protien intake.

TiMan said:

... I recommned two good meals a day and that's it. I have always had great success with this plan.
This is how you do it........eat a good breakfast and a late lunch, say at 2-3pm. Eat no more for the day, except after you ride eat about 100grams of carbs and some protein with it...

I would advocate eating smaller but more frequent (5 to 6 per day) meals.

*Nutrients are absorbed into the system more efficiently
*Burning/digesting food requires energy, which burns calories
*Insulin levels will be more steady thoughout the day as opposed to 2 large spikes. This helps curb cravings.

Load up on dark green veggies & fruits. Take in some protien with almost every meal - NOT huge bodybuilder quantities though. And save the heavy starches and breads for pre & post exercise meals.

I'll side with the Carmichael book. Believe staying in zone 2 most of the time during the next 5 weeks is good advice. Focus on comfortable aerobic riding now, and building up your endurance as you lose weight. You'll naturally get faster, and your HR will drop as you go; no need to force it. Just enjoy the exercise.

7 weeks is really nothing in terms of building cycling endurance. Believe it actually takes a few years of high-volume riding (with some intensity) to build the capillary and veinous network into the quads. Without that CV adapation, you can run you HR up sky-high but still not get much O2 and fuel to the working muscles.

As Doc said, specificity is indeed king. Someone trying to drop weight and get in shape doesn't need to mess with the glycogen-depletion and potential injuries that race-training intervals bring.

dhk said:

I'll side with the Carmichael book. Believe staying in zone 2 most of the time during the next 5 weeks is good advice. Focus on comfortable aerobic riding now, and building up your endurance as you lose weight. You'll naturally get faster, and your HR will drop as you go; no need to force it. Just enjoy the exercise.

7 weeks is really nothing in terms of building cycling endurance. Believe it actually takes a few years of high-volume riding (with some intensity) to build the capillary and veinous network into the quads. Without that CV adapation, you can run you HR up sky-high but still not get much O2 and fuel to the working muscles.

Studies have shown that capillary and mitochondrial formation are optimum at higher levels than CTS' Zone 2. I refer to the many posts on A. Coggan's chart that appears in this article... http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=2852

Quoted post said:

As Doc said, specificity is indeed king. Someone trying to drop weight and get in shape doesn't need to mess with the glycogen-depletion and potential injuries that race-training intervals bring.

It all depends on one's methodology. There are two schools of thought on weight loss. Both work. But one may be better suited toward some indivicuals while the other may be better suited toward others.

The conventional school is to restrict calories, exercise in Zone 2 or other comparable low threshold and over time one will lose weight. Of course, they will also lose muscle weight due to the restricted calories and at some point their fitness levels will plateau due to the low stresses applied during training... no more adaptations will take place.

The other school is to cut out junk food, eat properly and exercise hard enough to bump up the metabolism and/or to gain lean muscle weight (as in the case of a bodybuilder) and let the extra muscle weight burn the calories. Of course the extra muscle weight of a bodybuilder is NOT what an endurance athlete wants. But if a regular Joe wants to get results this could be a suitable approach. Also something to check out would be Charles Poliquin's German Body Composition training. However, this is not suited toward an endurance cyclist.

Below are the links to the studies that Biker-Linz posted a while back. Both of these studies suggest that high intensity work loads generated greater fat loss than low intensity work.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=11319629

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=8028502

Keeping in mind that the OP is trying to build a cycing base in the conventional/traditional sense (as opposed to 20 min mean max power or MP ... http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm) then this is NOT what he wants to do.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius:
Your heart could also be lower due to the onset of fatigue. I'd be a bit skeptical that you have had any significant training adaptations in a week's time.

When I realized that I couldn't really maintain my heartbeat in Zone 2 I just gave up and started pushing myself as hard as I could maintain for 30-40 minutes (about 85-90% mHR)... I did this for about four weeks, recovering three days a week... then when I came back to training in Zone 2 I found that the higher intensity training for four weeks had helped me maintain a lower HR. This is what I meant by my earlier statement.

As far as specificity goes, I'm not trying to kill myself doing intervals, sprints, and VO2 max work anytime soon, nor am I looking to be any sort of competative bodybuilder. I just want to have a plan together for my cardiovascular training that gives me the most bang for my buck.

Food-wise I am eating 5-6 meals a day and never feel hungry or weak. In fact I have never felt better!

I appreciate you guys taking the time to give me some tips. I am definitely worried about overtraining and loosing too much weight too fast, but so far I haven't run into those problems YET!

Anyone care to comment on the difference between 22 and 30 miles for someone at my level? Should I take any food or sports drink with me?

Spacegh()st said:

When I realized that I couldn't really maintain my heartbeat in Zone 2 I just gave up and started pushing myself as hard as I could maintain for 30-40 minutes (about 85-90% mHR)... I did this for about four weeks, recovering three days a week... then when I came back to training in Zone 2 I found that the higher intensity training for four weeks had helped me maintain a lower HR. This is what I meant by my earlier statement.

As far as specificity goes, I'm not trying to kill myself doing intervals, sprints, and VO2 max work anytime soon, nor am I looking to be any sort of competative bodybuilder. I just want to have a plan together for my cardiovascular training that gives me the most bang for my buck.

Food-wise I am eating 5-6 meals a day and never feel hungry or weak. In fact I have never felt better!

I appreciate you guys taking the time to give me some tips. I am definitely worried about overtraining and loosing too much weight too fast, but so far I haven't run into those problems YET!

Anyone care to comment on the difference between 22 and 30 miles for someone at my level? Should I take any food or sports drink with me?

Take a sport drink with you (one that agrees with you), in both bottles or just one with water in the other if you prefer. You won't be riding long enough to worry about food really, but throw in a gel pack or two just in case, you'll feel better knowing its there if you want it. As far as whether or not 30 is too much, originally you said you understood periodization pretty well. Strictly speaking during base training, you should only inccrease about 10% or so, but you've also been doing some Build work too, and we're talking fairly reasonable distances. Take a cell phone with you, and arrange to have someone available if the worst should happen. It won't, but again, you'll feel better. Stick to the periodization method, have some fun and don't worry too much.