Training for Flanders -- my weakness

Hei,

instead of HR, the actual power would be more precise indicator of your training intensity. If you don't have power meter, I'd then take the speed and time on the hills as measure of intensity. About your training, what is the time spent on your hill intervals? Are the hills similar on your training route as they are in the Flanders? Obviously, I'd try to climb up those hills as quickly during training as needed in racing. And weather the hills don't match by the length and grade, I'd estimate how this should be compensated. Last, but not least, maybe another 2*20 min session could be included into teh training week already now.

linusrees said:

I'm currently doing weekly sessions on hard hills and allow my heartrate to rise to about 105% of threshold grinding up the steep slippery hills at a cadence of about 40 to 50 seated. I'm concentrating on smooth pedalling with the occasional out of the saddle on the less steep and less slippery sections.

First, I'd say good luck on your second trip to Flanders!

I don't know about anyone else, but the idea of going all the way down to 40-50rpms sitting seams almost unbearable and just terrible for the knees. I would be looking for a gear choice that allowed me to sit at least 60+ rpms.

Heart rate climbs as a result of exerting higher power while standing, which is probably also causing the slippage based on your position on the bike. It's a similar problem you can have while mountain biking if you're not correctly weighted on the back wheel.

Short, steep climbs are going to be supra threshold efforts. I felt a PE difference just doing 10-12 x 2-3 minute hill repeats last year. I think you could work on the form on the bike on the rough roads without doing it as an interval, to make sure you're getting the best form. Then do the intervals on good roads to build the strength for the event. Probably best to build power while you're not worry about hanging on to the road.

linusrees said:

Hi

I'm riding the tour of Flanders 140k cyclosportive again this year (first time last year) and want to address my weak points in my training.

<snip>

Am I addressing my weakness correctly? Any suggestions?

Linus

Linus,

I think you have the right idea on what to do for your ride.

I would suggest lengthening the time that you are spending for your sub-threshold work to ~90 minutes at a time. This could be a good goal for you to work up to...

What you are doing sounds very similar to Sweet Spot Training (SST). There have been tons of threads on this very subject.

As you get closer to your goal race, make sure that you do 4 - 6 weeks of VO2Max work, along with long rides where you do Threshold/SST intervals.

I think one of the most important things that you did was to figure out your weakness and plan on how to strengthen this. Don't be afraid to try new things in your quest for conquering this ride.

Good luck this year.

Jim

Hi

Thanks guys for the quick response.

Firstly I don't use a power meter only HRM. As far as a very low cadence is concerend I know this is not ideal. It's probably only as low as about 45 for a minute or so and I'm really not mashing just powering round smoothly and my legs are moving up and down vertically and not knocking in and out. If I turn any faster I'm in danger of blowing and unable to complete further hills. I'm using a 50k circuit with 10 short and steep hills similar in length to the Flanders' Bergs. I recover well in between each hill before hitting the next one with the same intensity.

When I go to a training camp next week for two weeks I'll change tack slightly. I'll be using a triple c/set and doing long climbs -- up to an hour -- seated and I'll be doing these at a more comfortable cadence at around 70 rpm and at sub-threshold. This way I'm sure my knees will be fine although they are not giving me any pain at the moment because I'm only doing Flanders-like hills which are of course very short. I'll also do longer SST rides as you've suggested. I'll also put in some form sprints on easy days for variety and bike handling.

When I'm back on my home territory I'll hit those short sharp hills with more intensity and use them for VO2 max intervals and hopefully at a higher more comfortable cadence.

Linus

If your more pwerful standing then stand. dont worry about hr! I am a hr training supporter but sometimes its just useless. You can balance yourself properly so you can stand and still not worry about losing your grip. Too far back you lift the front, too far forward the back wheel flicks out. practice practice practice.

Personally I usually always stand on hills even low gradient ones, i am a lot more pwerful that way.

dm69 said:

If your more pwerful standing then stand. dont worry about hr! I am a hr training supporter but sometimes its just useless. You can balance yourself properly so you can stand and still not worry about losing your grip. Too far back you lift the front, too far forward the back wheel flicks out. practice practice practice.

Personally I usually always stand on hills even low gradient ones, i am a lot more pwerful that way.

I try not to worry about the my HR it's just that in a big effort I can blow easily. I don't have much explosive power, but I don't mind long climbs

I noticed watching the pros ride the Paterbeg climb -- which averages 12% and with a max of 20% -- on the T o Flanders 2006 that most of them sat for this cobbled climb (although Boonen did briefly stand). When I rode those climbs because there is so much bouncing across the pavé I found it better to sit. What I'm thinking of doing is to try to attack the first, less steep parts fo the climbs standing then as it ramps up sit and try to keep the momentum going. Last year it was wet in the morning of the ride so standing was a no, no.

I'm wondering if I should also be addressing more my lack in neuromuscular power by doing 20 second bursts (seated) in a very big gear as Coggan and Hunter suggest (p147) in their book Training and Racing with power? Also do the same standing? I'm thinking of doing this during the last three weeks of my base training.

I'm sure it's within me to ride these steep bergs with a 34x28 gear and at a cadence of 60 rpm as long as I recover well between each effort.

I'm also avoiding any weight training (apart from some maintenance) on my legs between now and Flanders, although I did lift twice a week for a month in November. I do some upper body work. From what I gather from reading the threads here is that becasue cycling is endurance weights won't help much. Is this still true for my weaknesses, especially as I'm a classical ectomorph?

Linus

Linus

A bit off-topic, but am looking at doing that ride myself. Did another version of it last year - brutal. Not as organised as you, I've just been trying to hit some hills a couple of times a week, hope that helps, at least a little! Are you going across to Belgium specially?

bing181 said:

Linus

A bit off-topic, but am looking at doing that ride myself. Did another version of it last year - brutal. Not as organised as you, I've just been trying to hit some hills a couple of times a week, hope that helps, at least a little! Are you going across to Belgium specially?

Hi

Yes went for the first time last year. Rode the cyclosportive then saw the start of the women's race the next morning, saw them later going up one of the bergs then cut across country to catch the men's race. Then back to the hotel to watch the rest of it on the telly. Wonderful stuff.

The Ronde van Vlaanderen cyclosportive is very well organised. Very good marshalling at junctions almost like riding with closed roads (but of course they are not closed) and lots of crowds out on the bergs to cheer you on. Quite amazing. Really enjoyed it.

This year we are going to catch Gent-Wevelgem and Paris-Roubaix as well. We booked all our accommodation in advance so just have to turn up and enjoy the riding and racing. We'll be in the stadium at Roubaix to watch P-RBX on the big screen there.

A couple of months back we saw one night of the Gent Six-day which was also had a great atmosphere (though missed the later tragedy thank goodness...). The Flemish really know how to put on an event.

Good luck with your training.

Linus

Hi

I thought I'd get back to you about the Ronde van Vlaanderen Cyclosportive. I got around much quicker than last year thanks to some intelligent training and help from this forum (thanks).

I managed the steep pavé climbs much better -- only had to walk part of the Patterberg and some of the Muur because of numbers of riders. I did a time of 6 hours 12 minutes compared with last year's 7 hours 30 minutes, so a great improvement. I got the gearing just right with a 13-28 cassette and 48x34 chainset and had no mechanical problems.

I spent most of the training time in the final six weeks doing VO2Max intervals (3 min 30 secs) and practising bike handling on short, steep, badly paved climbs, some tempo rides and sprints. Once I'd established a winter base culminating with a ride of 150k in mid-February, I just did a long ride of around 100k every two or three weeks.

A week before the Ronde I did a hard 70k ride where I attacked about 12 or so very steep climbs. Then over the final week just did some easy spinning and some sprints.

Of course there's no substitute for experience and having ridden the event before I was a lot more confident on the pavé, especially the downhill sections where I knew to keep out of trouble. And of course the weather was a lot better this year.

Linus

linusrees said:

Hi

I thought I'd get back to you about the Ronde van Vlaanderen Cyclosportive. I got around much quicker than last year thanks to some intelligent training and help from this forum (thanks).

I managed the steep pavé climbs much better -- only had to walk part of the Patterberg and some of the Muur because of numbers of riders. I did a time of 6 hours 12 minutes compared with last year's 7 hours 30 minutes, so a great improvement. I got the gearing just right with a 13-28 cassette and 48x34 chainset and had no mechanical problems.

I spent most of the training time in the final six weeks doing VO2Max intervals (3 min 30 secs) and practising bike handling on short, steep, badly paved climbs, some tempo rides and sprints. Once I'd established a winter base culminating with a ride of 150k in mid-February, I just did a long ride of around 100k every two or three weeks.

A week before the Ronde I did a hard 70k ride where I attacked about 12 or so very steep climbs. Then over the final week just did some easy spinning and some sprints.

Of course there's no substitute for experience and having ridden the event before I was a lot more confident on the pavé, especially the downhill sections where I knew to keep out of trouble. And of course the weather was a lot better this year.

Linus

Linus,

Fantastic Job...

So, what are you going to change, so that you can break the 6 hour mark?

😄

Jim

linusrees said:

I got the gearing just right with a 13-28 cassette and 48x34 chainset and had no mechanical problems.
Linus

When I went into my LBS here in Brussels, and was talking about changing my 13-26 (39 front), he just looked at me and said "come on, you can get up the Muur on a 26". End of discussion!

I'm doing another of the T D Flanders rides next week (few riders .. only about 5000 instead of 20 000 ...) so hope he was right!

Well done, and thanks for the new/post as I wondered how you'd got on.

B

bing181 said:

When I went into my LBS here in Brussels, and was talking about changing my 13-26 (39 front), he just looked at me and said "come on, you can get up the Muur on a 26". End of discussion!

I'm doing another of the T D Flanders rides next week (few riders .. only about 5000 instead of 20 000 ...) so hope he was right!

Well done, and thanks for the new/post as I wondered how you'd got on.

B

Hi

Well I think some of the Belgians seem to manage with 39 and 26, but I know I'd be walking with those cogs. If you can get a clear run at the Muur then it's a lot easier, but if you are having to weave around people and you lose momentum it can be difficult to get moving again in a big gear. You may be ok with a lot less riders on the course and if you got good ability on the short steep climbs. I found the Patterberg more difficult as at one point it is about 20 percent and the cobbles are rougher. I did see a lot of people using triples, which is what I used last year. I did much better this year on the climbs and overtook plenty of people and the 48x34 c/set operated much better across the bumpy road than the triple. But what really helped was doing VO2Max intervals of about 3 mins 30 secs in the build up to the ride and riding lots of rough short hills.

Get back to us with how you get on with those cogs on your ride.

Linus

linusrees said:

Get back to us with how you get on with those cogs on your ride.

Cogs were fine. Would have got up the Muur, but back wheel started spinning and I eventually stalled/bailed ... need to do some homework on weight distribution while standing (I think). On the other hand .. compact or 29 would have been preferable!

As for the other climbs ..can't tell you, as I somehow missed the turn off for the 135 km and ended up doing the 70 km (which I only realised much too late to turn back). Instead of 10 climbs, I did 3. Huge let-down of course, though doubt I'll do this ride again in any case. Not for me. I find much of the ride boring and tedious, and I'm not powerful enough to managed the climbs. Not to mention, if I wanted to ride on rocks, I'd take up cross-country. Next target .. Liege Bastogne Liege. Nice long straight roads, beautiful scenery, and no cobbles!

B