Training Choice... Running or Cycling

I'd ride instead, but then I also think that running is unnatural and the invention of demons plotting the downfall of human knees and the human race in general.

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Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

... I also think that running is unnatural and the invention of demons plotting the downfall of human knees and the human race in general.

I think that's putting it too nicely.

To the OP, if you're training to ride your bike then ride a bike. Specificity and all that. I'm sure either can be a good workout but work your joint angles, and muscle recruitment and even cycling skills by riding a bike. Of course taking that further, an hour of uphill mountain biking is going to be a great workout but it won't in any way replicate the demands of a typical crit. Make sure you spend enough time riding fast on flatter roads and cornering at speed on a bike if you want to prep for crits.

-Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I think that's putting it too nicely.

To the OP, if you're training to ride your bike then ride a bike. Specificity and all that. I'm sure either can be a good workout but work your joint angles, and muscle recruitment and even cycling skills by riding a bike. Of course taking that further, an hour of uphill mountain biking is going to be a great workout but it won't in any way replicate the demands of a typical crit. Make sure you spend enough time riding fast on flatter roads and cornering at speed on a bike if you want to prep for crits.

-Dave

That was one thing I failed to mention in my original post. I thought about it after hitting the send button. I have a course that I've laid out that replicates the crit almost to a tee. Should I bag running and climbing mountains and focus on that along?

The course might replicate the cornering aspects of a criterium, and you can certainly and should practice your cornering skills so that you are comfortable cornering at high speeds (I am still working on this skill, also) .. you also need group riding experience and you should still do some strength work on the bike which means climbing hills. You need also to be able to repeatedly hit your "red zone (zone 5a-b HR)" and recover, so interval practice as well. I think these are some of the basics which will help you be able to ride a criterium. If you want to think about winning, you also need to work on your sprint and / or time trial abilities, but I'd focus on riding one first.

Do you have any "practice crits" near you that you can participate in? We have a weekly one around here.

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Originally Posted by GraceB [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The course might replicate the cornering aspects of a criterium, and you can certainly and should practice your cornering skills so that you are comfortable cornering at high speeds (I am still working on this skill, also) .. you also need group riding experience and you should still do some strength work on the bike which means climbing hills. You need also to be able to repeatedly hit your "red zone (zone 5a-b HR)" and recover, so interval practice as well. I think these are some of the basics which will help you be able to ride a criterium. If you want to think about winning, you also need to work on your sprint and / or time trial abilities, but I'd focus on riding one first.

Do you have any "practice crits" near you that you can participate in? We have a weekly one around here.

Yes... the crits are held on Tues/Wednesdays, Hill Climb/TT's on Thursdays. $10 a race. Basically I guess I need to incorporate it all from the sounds of it.

If you want to really do well at criteriums, I'd cut out all running altogether. Also, you don't need to have massive endurance for crit riding, but you do need some endurance. You should be able to ride 2-3 hours at a steady effort with no significant change in your heart rate over the course of the distance (IE read up on coupling / decoupling). But you don't need multi hour rides. IE I'm focusing on 5 hr + rides lately, you don't need to do that. So there are some things you don't need to focus as heavily on if that is your only focus with your riding. Of course, those who focus more on one thing or the other will do better at that particular thing, but, as a "beginning racer", you might want some variety, as well.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by GraceB [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

If you want to really do well at criteriums, I'd cut out all running altogether. Also, you don't need to have massive endurance for crit riding, but you do need some endurance. You should be able to ride 2-3 hours at a steady effort with no significant change in your heart rate over the course of the distance (IE read up on coupling / decoupling). But you don't need multi hour rides. IE I'm focusing on 5 hr + rides lately, you don't need to do that. So there are some things you don't need to focus as heavily on if that is your only focus with your riding. Of course, those who focus more on one thing or the other will do better at that particular thing, but, as a "beginning racer", you might want some variety, as well.

There are 4 flights for each crit. ABC and D. I started out in D and was doing pretty good, then went to C and am having my head handed to me. It's all about the pace. The last two crits were interesting because I felt really good in one, had good numbers, and stayed with the pack. The last one, I felt ok, the pace felt harder and I thought I was going to fall off the back. I didn't, but as it turns out, the numbers weren't as good as the previous crit. (wind may have been a factor here however). My heart rate the entire race was around 160 and my max is 174. I had nothing at the end for any kind of sprint. I think I'll wear a bib next time in case I puke on myself... 😉

for me, sprinting is better training than intervals for criteriums, just to get you through those tight corners where you need to jump out of the saddle all the time,

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Originally Posted by wbkski [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

My heart rate the entire race was around 160 and my max is 174. I had nothing at the end for any kind of sprint. I think I'll wear a bib next time in case I puke on myself... 😉

If your endurance is a little light good drafting skills are essential but what you describe above sounds like your available fitness has you holding on for dear life. You're averaging over 90% of maxHR for the duration. I would personally make sure I was on the bike at least 4, preferably 5 days a week and add a couple longer (2-3+ hours) L3 type rides for a few weeks and work on increasing the size of the aerobic motor. If you are able to do the same race effort even 10 beats lower on average you heart will have someplace to go when the afterburners are called for, somewhere other than being spit out the back of the pack. Being a rider low on miles I often find myself in this exact scenario. It doesn't matter how much peak power we have unless we can arrive at the end able to use it. A couple years ago I rode a bunch with a good friend whom I could easily sprint faster than and he'd have a tough time hanging on if we did a shorter all out effort of anything less than a minute, but his aerobic capacity was top shelf and he always did better than me during actual races, even shorter circuit type races. I just didn't have the gas to use my power at the end. We certainly need training specificity for the particular event but regardless bike racing is primarily an aerobic event.

We don't need 5 hour rides for crit training, or even for the USAC lower category 65mile typical road race distance, but we do need a baseline of "aerobic" fitness.

Cornering skills, drafting skills, and as GraceB mentioned the capacity to hit L5/L6 repeatedly are all also important, but all else will flow from your level of fitness.

I'd skip the running altogether.

I'm very grateful for the advice everyone has given. I especially like the ones who say skip running altogether ...YES!!!!! I think I'm going to start out by giving myself a 3 week window of doing both crit training on my short track course, and also getting into the 2-3 hour long rides... probably 2-3 times per week.

One last question ... if you have a crit on a Saturday, would you do any sort of ride the day before?

Thanks again!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by wbkski [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

One last question ... if you have a crit on a Saturday, would you do any sort of ride the day before?

I would, but not a tough ride, maybe an hour or so on the lower intensity side with 1 or 2 harder minute long efforts to open the pipes sprinkled in. The goal is not to exhaust oneself, just to loosen up a bit. It seems to work for me better than taking it off completely but there's no scientific basis for it, it's just the MO I picked up along the way at some point.

Most important thing is a good warmup, especially if not at peak fitness and more important the shorter the event. I wouldn't warm up for a 65mile road race (unless it starts with a murderous climb right after the start, like the Nancy Morgenstein Memorial in NY) but I'll spend 20-30 minutes warming up for a 30 mile circuit race especially if it could start fast.

My warm-up: Nothing extravagant... 20 minutes or so slowly bringing the HR up to the 80-90% MaxHR zone, finishing off with two 1 minute efforts at well over redline spaced a few minutes apart, then a couple minutes easy spinning. I want to have my first swim in lactate before the race even starts but not be tired out.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I would, but not a tough ride, maybe an hour or so on the lower intensity side with 1 or 2 harder minute long efforts to open the pipes sprinkled in. The goal is not to exhaust oneself, just to loosen up a bit. It seems to work for me better than taking it off completely but there's no scientific basis for it, it's just the MO I picked up along the way at some point.

Most important thing is a good warmup, especially if not at peak fitness and more important the shorter the event. I wouldn't warm up for a 65mile road race (unless it starts with a murderous climb right after the start, like the Nancy Morgenstein Memorial in NY) but I'll spend 20-30 minutes warming up for a 30 mile circuit race especially if it could start fast.

My warm-up: Nothing extravagant... 20 minutes or so slowly bringing the HR up to the 80-90% MaxHR zone, finishing off with two 1 minute efforts at well over redline spaced a few minutes apart, then a couple minutes easy spinning. I want to have my first swim in lactate before the race even starts but not be tired out.

Thanks again for the advice. I think I'll bike down to the site and do a few easy laps around the course we'll be racing tomorrow. I'll bring my trainer to the race to get warmed up prior to.

This is my ride at a perceived effort of 6/7. It's Strava so you don't get to see my cadence or heart rate.... I just got back from this ride. Its my pre-warm up to the race tomorrow. app.strava.com56041548Open ↗

good luck tomorrow !

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Originally Posted by vspa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

good luck tomorrow !

thank you very much... 🙂

Well... after getting up at 3:15 am and not getting back to sleep, the race started at 9:05... I managed to get blown off the back of the pack after lap 5 of 12. Didn't finish last, but that's no consolation to falling off the back. I felt like I was doing well...even found myself in the front of the pack at the end of lap 4 and then BAM... after spilling my guts out to try to keep up going up the 2nd hill, my air decided that was that and I was left to wolves. I think I may know what I could have done differently, (like get more sleep), but I really don't know. Maybe my expectations are a bit high for my ability. Maybe I should race with my age group and not 20/30/40 something's. Lot's of maybes, and to me, maybes equal excuses and that's not who I am. So... my new training regimen started today with an RPE 4-6 ride of 35 miles. Hopefully some longer rides will mean more gas in the tank during and at the end of the race.

Ah, but you finished and learned. Those are good things.

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Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Ah, but you finished and learned. Those are good things.

Yes.... finished and learned. If anyone has any advice on how to approach hills of approx. 200+ yards in length during a crit, I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by wbkski [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yes.... finished and learned. If anyone has any advice on how to approach hills of approx. 200+ yards in length during a crit, I'm all ears.

Crits are all about maintaining speed and momentum as best as you can and doing what you can to smooth out an extremely non-smooth event from a power and effort standpoint. That means a lot of things but start with the basics:

- Carry speed through corners as best as you can manage so stay off the brakes, find fast and smooth lines, pedal deep into the corners or all the way through when it's safe to do so, stay tight on wheels into and especially out of the corners and don't give away any more speed than absolutely necessary in the frequent turns. This is the place most folks can improve the most rapidly with practice, either alone or with friends in an empty parking lot or around a quiet loop of roads or just by racing a ton and gaining experience.

- Minimize big bursts of power through smooth and confident positioning and pack riding skills. Stay forward when possible, move up the inside of the pack when possible instead of out in the wind, avoid burning huge matches to advance unless absolutely necessary, and again advance rather than maintain or worse lose ground in the corners.

- Minimize big bursts on any rollers or hills on a crit course. This usually means charging hard into the hills to build momentum and avoid having to accelerate on the actual hill to match faster riders. Much better to come into each hill with a head of steam and advancing so that momentum works for you on the uphill bits. In a crit this often gets back to those other skills like cornering fast and with confidence so you come out of any corners that lead into uphills with a ton of speed while others are having to deal with the double whammy of regaining speed they gave away in the corners and having to accelerate on the hills while folks up front who carried speed into the hill aren't working nearly as hard.

- Use your gears, unless it's a crazy big hill you'll likely stay in your big chainring for the entire crit but use your rear derailleur like crazy during crits, especially hillier crits. Downshift to an easier gear anytime the group slows or as you approach any corners that will require slowing or have slow exits as in uphill, even slightly uphill exits. Use leg speed to accelerate back up to race speed rather than relying on brute force and having to jump out of the saddle for every acceleration. So if a particular corner or set of corners is predictably slow you'll want to downshift a couple or more gears every time you approach those turns, whip your legs back up to speed as soon as you can exiting those turns and then shift back up to your bigger gears as you get back to normal race speeds. Same thing if and when the pack slows mid race (which usually happens a couple of times) or for hills that sap the speed from the group. Way too many riders bang away in one gear for an entire crit and kill themselves by hammering huge gears in every acceleration until their legs are toast. There's a time and a place to really jump up and go in a big gear but that's usually an intentional attack, a bridging move or contesting a prime or the finish and not something you should do for every acceleration or every hill on every lap or you're making it a lot harder on yourself. You pay to have all those gears on your bike, use them!

Crits take practice and you hung longer than many riders do in their first crit. It can be an eye opening experience and seem crazy fast and chaotic but they get a lot easier (at least to hang, winning is another thing) with practice.

Good luck,
-Dave