Training an athletic movement w/ weights

In article said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to try
to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is a
cite of some sort...anybody?

There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
training'.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to

try

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cite of some sort...anybody?

There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
training'.

Jackpot - thanks Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to

try

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cite of some sort...anybody?

There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
training'.

A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach has him
on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang cleans, cable
rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the swimmers should be doing
more sport specific stuff like cable pulls on a sliding bench to mimic a
butterfly, for example. My thought was that they are better off training for
overall body strength and to work the specific muscles of each stroke by
swimming.

Ranieri' nah said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable to
try
to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing a
baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the neural
adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to find is
a cite of some sort...anybody?

There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
training'.

A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach has him
on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang cleans, cable
rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the swimmers should be doing
more sport specific stuff like cable pulls on a sliding bench to mimic a
butterfly, for example. My thought was that they are better off training for
overall body strength and to work the specific muscles of each stroke by
swimming.

Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.

Ranieri' nah said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.

Jason

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ranieri' nah said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.

IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try to
duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going to be
working it much more slowly than you would perform the movement in
competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've established is going to
change to accomodate the need to move more weight at a slower rate.

I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to your
competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds like a bad
idea, though.

Ranieri' nah said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ranieri' nah said:

I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.

IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try
to duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going
to be working it much more slowly than you would perform the
movement in competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've
established is going to change to accomodate the need to move more
weight at a slower rate.

I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to
your competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds
like a bad idea, though.

I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan John's
lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it would appear
that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.

Just throwing that out there...

Jason

JMW said:

Ranieri' nah said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Ranieri" <nah>
wrote:

> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
> inadvisable to try
> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can
> mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement.
> What I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and
'resistance training'.

A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach
has him on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang
cleans, cable rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the
swimmers should be doing more sport specific stuff like cable pulls
on a sliding bench to mimic a butterfly, for example. My thought was
that they are better off training for overall body strength and to
work the specific muscles of each stroke by swimming.

Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.

I've been thinking about the exact same subject but in relation to rugby.
If, for example, we practice passing the ball with over-weight balls it will
strengthen the movement -- agreed. Now, JMW, you say it will also slow the
movement. But, if we practice for 10 mins/week with over-weight balls and
the other say 80 mins per week with normal-weight balls, will it have a
significant slowing effect?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Supps: http://www.myprotein.co.uk - 5% off with my discount code MP4858

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Jason Earl said:

Ranieri' nah said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> writes:

> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
> inadvisable to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement
> (ie slapshot, throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight
> because it can mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for
> the movement. What I'd like to find is a cite of some
> sort...anybody?

Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you
would consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.

IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try
to duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going
to be working it much more slowly than you would perform the
movement in competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've
established is going to change to accomodate the need to move more
weight at a slower rate.

I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to
your competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds
like a bad idea, though.

I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan John's
lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it would appear
that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.

Just throwing that out there...

Jason

What percentage of their training is done with overweight stuff?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Supps: http://www.myprotein.co.uk - 5% off with my discount code MP4858

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Ranieri' nah said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> writes:

> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable
> to try to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess
> up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement. What
> I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?

Shot putters and discus throwers often work out with oversized
implements (tires, extra heavy shot, etc.). I don't know if you would
consider that a speed/skill movement, but I would.

IIRC, and I think this goes along with what John said, when you try
to duplicate a speed movement with heavy resistance, you are going
to be working it much more slowly than you would perform the
movement in competition. So, the nerve firing pattern you've
established is going to change to accomodate the need to move more
weight at a slower rate.

I guess if you could put an oversized shot at speeds very close to
your competitive put, that'd be okay - the tire/discus thing sounds
like a bad idea, though.

I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan John's
lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it would appear
that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.

Just throwing that out there...

They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements tho.
Very different thing.

--
Keith

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:05:37 -0000, "Bully"

neil_simpson@spam-me-not_btinternet.com said:

JMW said:

Ranieri' nah said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>, "Ranieri" <nah>
> wrote:
>
>> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
>> inadvisable to try
>> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
>> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can
>> mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement.
>> What I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?
>
> There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and
> 'resistance training'.

A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach
has him on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang
cleans, cable rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the
swimmers should be doing more sport specific stuff like cable pulls
on a sliding bench to mimic a butterfly, for example. My thought was
that they are better off training for overall body strength and to
work the specific muscles of each stroke by swimming.

Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.

I've been thinking about the exact same subject but in relation to rugby.
If, for example, we practice passing the ball with over-weight balls it will
strengthen the movement -- agreed. Now, JMW, you say it will also slow the
movement. But, if we practice for 10 mins/week with over-weight balls and
the other say 80 mins per week with normal-weight balls, will it have a
significant slowing effect?

Passing a rugby ball is not a skill that requires a particularly high
level of strength of power, given that the ball is nothing more than a
bag of air.

There is nothing to gain by using weighted balls and perhaps a
considerable amount to lose. A player using a weighted ball may adjust
to the heavier ball, and when returning to the normal ball may well
overthrow or loft.

Passing a normal ball is the best practice for passing, while players
in training sessions should be encouraged to carry and distribute the
ball as much as possible.

Strength and power training with weights or man on man opposition
exercises, is best aimed directly at those areas that require such
strength, which are mainly contact skills to do with upper body
strength and legs.

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Ranieri' nah said:

"Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.

Just throwing that out there...

They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
tho. Very different thing.

Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
for _form_.

Here's an example:

http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

"Ranieri" <nah> writes:

> "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.

Just throwing that out there...

They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
tho. Very different thing.

Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
for _form_.

Here's an example:

http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor pattern. The
problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor motor pattern with
yet another.

--
Keith

Bully' neil_simpson@spam-me-not_btinternet.com said:

JMW said:

Ranieri' nah said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>, "Ranieri" <nah>
> wrote:
>
>> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally
>> inadvisable to try
>> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot,
>> throwing a baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can
>> mess up the neural adaptation one has developed for the movement.
>> What I'd like to find is a cite of some sort...anybody?
>
> There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and
> 'resistance training'.

A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach
has him on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang
cleans, cable rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the
swimmers should be doing more sport specific stuff like cable pulls
on a sliding bench to mimic a butterfly, for example. My thought was
that they are better off training for overall body strength and to
work the specific muscles of each stroke by swimming.

Absolutely. When you train a specific movement for strength, not only
are you improving the strength of the movement by causing accretion to
the muscle tissue, but also by entraining neural patterns. Attempting
to approximate a sport-specific movement with heavy resistance is
likely to entrain a rate coding pattern that makes the stroke stronger
but slower. Not a good idea for a swimmer.

I've been thinking about the exact same subject but in relation to rugby.
If, for example, we practice passing the ball with over-weight balls it will
strengthen the movement -- agreed. Now, JMW, you say it will also slow the
movement. But, if we practice for 10 mins/week with over-weight balls and
the other say 80 mins per week with normal-weight balls, will it have a
significant slowing effect?

Probably not. I just don't see the value of that. If anything,
weighted balls should be easier for making solid catch, since they are
less likely to bounce out of your grasp.

However, if you hold the regular ball and allow your teammates to
throw medicine balls at you, that might get you conditioned for
American Rugby. 🙂

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Ranieri" <nah>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I recall from the golden days of MFW that it's generally inadvisable

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

try

Quoted message said:

> to duplicate a speed/skill athletic movement (ie slapshot, throwing

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> baseball, etc.) with a heavier weight because it can mess up the

neural

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> adaptation one has developed for the movement. What I'd like to

find is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> cite of some sort...anybody?
>
>
>

There are lots of them. Search under 'skill transfer' and 'resistance
training'.

A little background - #1 son is a competitive swimmer and his coach has

him

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on a pretty good strngth training program. Squat, DL, hang cleans, cable
rows, pull ups. Somebody was wondering whether the swimmers should be

doing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more sport specific stuff like cable pulls on a sliding bench to mimic a
butterfly, for example. My thought was that they are better off training

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

overall body strength and to work the specific muscles of each stroke by
swimming.

Absolutely right. And of course, doing overspeed work and other things
to translate strength into speed specific for the sport.

'Somebody' was making the very common error of confusing mimicry with
specificity.

Here is an excerpt from a communication by Loren Chiu on the
'Supertraining' email forum which explains specificity very well, IMO.
Chiu had made a presentation at the NSCA convention and there was some
questions regarding the powerpoint slides. Dude is wicked smaht!

--

<snip article>

Quoted message said:

Loren Chiu
Musculoskeletal Biomechanics Research Laboratory
Department of Biokinesiology and Physical Therapy
University of Southern California
http://pt.usc.edu/labs/mbrl/STUDENTS/Chiu.html
http://www.nsca-lift.org/SIGWeightlifting

That's some good stuff - worth printing and chewing on. Following the links
you posted, I found this:
https://www.nsca-lift.org/Conferences/sstc.shtml

-looks like it'd be right up your alley.

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote:

> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
>
> > "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
>
> Just throwing that out there...

They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
tho. Very different thing.

Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
for _form_.

Here's an example:

http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
motor pattern with yet another.

They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
agree that it works...

Jason

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes <[email hidden]> writes:

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
>>
>> > "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email hidden]...
>> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:

<snip>

>> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
>> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
>> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
>>
>> Just throwing that out there...
>
> They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
> tho. Very different thing.

Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
for _form_.

Here's an example:

http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
motor pattern with yet another.

They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
agree that it works...

I like Dan and enjoy his articles. There is definately something to
breaking down form flaws into segments and addressing the flaw. The
important thing is having a good coach to put everything back together
again. But, if you have a good coach you can make a lot of different
training tools work. In this case the research is clear - mimicing a
skill with heavy or light resistance deteriorates the sporting movement.
What DJ is suggesting - working a segment of that skill with heavy
resistance implements where they feel the nature of the heavy implement
will correct a training flaw - is a very different thing.

I still would worry that I'm addressing one flaw, but causing another.

--
Keith

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Hobbes <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
> >>
> >> > "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email hidden]...
> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
> >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
> >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
> >>
> >> Just throwing that out there...
> >
> > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
> > tho. Very different thing.
>
> Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
> the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
> for _form_.
>
> Here's an example:
>
> http://danjohn.org/den.pdf

The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
motor pattern with yet another.

They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
agree that it works...

I like Dan and enjoy his articles. There is definately something to
breaking down form flaws into segments and addressing the flaw. The
important thing is having a good coach to put everything back
together again. But, if you have a good coach you can make a lot of
different training tools work. In this case the research is clear -
mimicing a skill with heavy or light resistance deteriorates the
sporting movement. What DJ is suggesting - working a segment of
that skill with heavy resistance implements where they feel the
nature of the heavy implement will correct a training flaw - is a
very different thing.

I still would worry that I'm addressing one flaw, but causing
another.

That makes sense as well. I just brought up the example because it
was one case that I knew of where the "don't use heavy implements to
improve a skill" rule was being broken by talented coaches.

Thanks for the discussion,
Jason

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Earl said:

Hobbes <[email hidden]> writes:

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> Hobbes <[email hidden]> writes:
>>
>> > In article <[email hidden]>,
>> > Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> >> > news:[email hidden]...
>> >> >> "Ranieri" <nah> writes:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >> I am not a shot-putter or a discus thrower, but I do read Dan
>> >> John's lifting and throwing page (for the lifting stuff) and it
>> >> would appear that the elite throwers all use overweight implements.
>> >>
>> >> Just throwing that out there...
>> >
>> > They don't mimic the sporting movement with the heavy implements
>> > tho. Very different thing.
>>
>> Actually, I re-read a couple of the articles and it would appear that
>> the reason for throwing oversize implements was not for strength but
>> for _form_.
>>
>> Here's an example:
>>
>> http://danjohn.org/den.pdf
>
> The example there is to correct poor form - a poor motor
> pattern. The problem is that it may replace one segment of a poor
> motor pattern with yet another.

They certainly have a lot of talented weight throwers that tend to
agree that it works...

I like Dan and enjoy his articles. There is definately something to
breaking down form flaws into segments and addressing the flaw. The
important thing is having a good coach to put everything back
together again. But, if you have a good coach you can make a lot of
different training tools work. In this case the research is clear -
mimicing a skill with heavy or light resistance deteriorates the
sporting movement. What DJ is suggesting - working a segment of
that skill with heavy resistance implements where they feel the
nature of the heavy implement will correct a training flaw - is a
very different thing.

I still would worry that I'm addressing one flaw, but causing
another.

That makes sense as well. I just brought up the example because it
was one case that I knew of where the "don't use heavy implements to
improve a skill" rule was being broken by talented coaches.

Thanks for the discussion,

Ditto. And that last point is huge - there are very little training
ideas that don't work for someone at sometime. Rules are made to be
broken.

--
Keith