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training advice for HRM?

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Power meters
Published
7 September 2006
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10 September 2006
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dm69
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  1. It seems that a power meter is not an option for me atm πŸ™ due to "financial issues"πŸ˜‰ so I am stuck on "the dark side" using a heart rate monitor. What annoys me most when I ask people about the option of powermeters is they tell me I am too young to use or need a PM! Its like us juniors can't be trusted with the equiptment??? anyways I can't afford one for atleast another year and I am heading into my first year of under 19's (i am still only 15 years old:eek: ) next year. I have only been riding for a year!

    I intend to have a massive few months on the bike building up power and endurance so I can atleast suck the wheels next year against the junior world champions we have in OZ. and build a good base to do well in my second year of U19's. Its quite important that I use this time wisely. I intend to hit the gym and add bulk, do some swimming for the lungs, a lot of velodrome work for cadence/ sprint/ tactics, keep taking my creatine, protein, tribulus, multi-v and other supplements aswell as of course riding minimum 750km's a week in the holidays (550 plus at school).

    My Long term goal like a lot of other junior racers is to be as good as I can be and hopefully atleast get in a semi-pro team around OZ by the time im 25.

    My goals for the next few months is simply to improve BIG TIME at EVERYTHING with just a HRM and a speedo. If you had to train without a PM and switch to HRM tommorow how would you do it and what knowledge have you gained from PM's that would help you. I hear you all going on about FT power and I hear of how you train with the Pm's to improve this skill how could I get better with a HRm and still pace myself correctly?

    Thanks a million for any advice.

    By the way I am asking in this forum because I know that power meter dudes/ dudesses are superior and more intelligent to those scabby HRM [censored]'s :p .

  2. dm69 said:

    It seems that a power meter is not an option for me atm πŸ™ due to "financial issues"πŸ˜‰ so I am stuck on "the dark side" using a heart rate monitor. What annoys me most when I ask people about the option of powermeters is they tell me I am too young to use or need a PM! Its like us juniors can't be trusted with the equiptment??? anyways I can't afford one for atleast another year and I am heading into my first year of under 19's (i am still only 15 years old:eek: ) next year. I have only been riding for a year!

    I intend to have a massive few months on the bike building up power and endurance so I can atleast suck the wheels next year against the junior world champions we have in OZ. and build a good base to do well in my second year of U19's. Its quite important that I use this time wisely. I intend to hit the gym and add bulk, do some swimming for the lungs, a lot of velodrome work for cadence/ sprint/ tactics, keep taking my creatine, protein, tribulus, multi-v and other supplements aswell as of course riding minimum 750km's a week in the holidays (550 plus at school).

    My Long term goal like a lot of other junior racers is to be as good as I can be and hopefully atleast get in a semi-pro team around OZ by the time im 25.

    My goals for the next few months is simply to improve BIG TIME at EVERYTHING with just a HRM and a speedo. If you had to train without a PM and switch to HRM tommorow how would you do it and what knowledge have you gained from PM's that would help you. I hear you all going on about FT power and I hear of how you train with the Pm's to improve this skill how could I get better with a HRm and still pace myself correctly?

    Thanks a million for any advice.

    By the way I am asking in this forum because I know that power meter dudes/ dudesses are superior and more intelligent to those scabby HRM [censored]'s :p .

    DM, I won't attempt to answer your questions, I'll leave that to the experts in the forum, but as an ex powerlifter and up until the end of last year an avid fan of bodybuilding, I did a lot of research into creatine. After a considerable amount of reading, including a simplified article posted below, common sense prevailed and I decided against using it. For some, it causes no problem, however, others have suffered serious side effects including symptoms not included in the article below such as depression, aggressive behaviour etc.
    Finally, I would say it definitely has no benefit whatsoever vis-a-vis cycling.

    [b][size=4][QUOTE] [/b]
    Beware creatine's potential dangers


    [font=arial]By Hollie W. Best[/font]
    [font=arial]Gannett News Service[/font]


    I am asked the question β€œShould I take creatine?” Creatine is a natural substance found in fish and raw meat. It is a compound that can be made in our bodies or taken as a dietary supplement.

    Creatine is an amino acid, which is made by liver and kidneys, and 95 percent to 98 percent is stored in muscle. The Food and Drug Administration categorizes creatine as a food supplement.

    Some studies have shown that creatine can increase the performance of athletes in activities that require quick bursts of energy, such as sprinting and weight lifting, and can help athletes to recover faster after expending bursts of energy.

    In addition to providing more fuel for your muscles, creatine pulls water into your muscle cells, which increases the volume of your muscles. Creatine might help in gaining greater muscle mass because it enhances protein synthesis.

    Nevertheless, before you go buy a creatine supplement, be aware that 20 percent of people taking creatine do not respond to it and their athletic performance does not change.

    New research has shown that creatine can help buffer lactic acid that builds up in the muscles during exercise. You will associate lactic acid with the burning sensations that you get in your muscles during exercise.

    The average human has between 3.5 and 4 grams of creatine per kilogram of muscle. Once you use up the creatine in your muscle you have to rest your muscle and wait a while before you can exercise the muscle again. Some studies suggest that taking more than 40 grams of creatine a day might cause liver or kidney damage in some people.

    Creatine can be found in powder, liquid, serum, effervescent or gum form. All forms of creatine will stay in your blood stream up to 1 1/2 hours. The general recommendation for creatine supplementation is taking it before a workout.

    If you deplete the creatine supply in your muscles and you have creatine available in the bloodstream, your muscles can replenish their creatine supply fromyour blood. But if your muscles are full of creatine and you are not working out, the creatine in your blood will be converted into creatinine and excreted. Over time this constant excretion of creatinine can put a lot of work on your kidneys and liver. Creatine might sound like the β€œwonder supplement” for athletes wanting to increase their performance or muscle mass. Be aware that the potential for danger is still unknown due to its β€œnewness.” Short-term side effects of creatine supplementation include: upset stomach, muscle cramping, diarrhea and dehydration. Athletes of any age taking creatine should do so under the supervision of a health-care provider.
    [/QUOTE] [/size]

  3. Skip the gym, the swimming, and the creatine, none of which will do you much good on the bike. ("add bulk"!? that's the last thing you want to do.) Use the $ you save to hire a decent coach.

    Or get yourself something like Friel's Training Bible, and use that to structure your training. But don't try and go nuts with your "massive few months" so that you end up going into the racing season tired and/or burnt out. With only a year of riding in your legs, just being consistent with your training will lead to improvements.

    On this forum you'll find people who swear training with HRM only is useless, but that's nonsense IMO. You can realize significant gains in fitness using a HRM.

    Oh yeah - and have fun. πŸ˜‰ If you aren't having fun, you won't want to train.

  4. If someone took my PM away, I don't think I'd go back to HR knowing what I know now. I think I would train by doing intervals of nearly as hard as I could for the duration of the interval, which is similar to RDO's approach of doing everything at 90% of what you're capable of (a simplification). When speed started dropping off dramatically at the end of an interval, I'd take my rest period without worrying about whether I was at 20 minutes or 18. When I could no longer hold the target speed for a meaningful length of time, I'd end the workout. I think I could do effective intervals without power or HR, if I were to lose my PM now.

    Of course, someone who hasn't trained with power wouldn't have the same perspective to fall back on, but looking back I don't really feel that the HRM did much for me beyond the journalling assistance which the software provided. Edit (for Pete's sake πŸ˜„ ): note that that's not the same as saying the training was useless, just that I can't put my finger on anything the HRM specifically did for me. πŸ™‚

  5. frenchyge said:

    If someone took my PM away, I don't think I'd go back to HR knowing what I know now. I think I would train by doing intervals of nearly as hard as I could for the duration of the interval, which is similar to RDO's approach of doing everything at 90% of what you're capable of (a simplification). When speed started dropping off dramatically at the end of an interval, I'd take my rest period without worrying about whether I was at 20 minutes or 18. When I could no longer hold the target speed for a meaningful length of time, I'd end the workout. I think I could do effective intervals without power or HR, if I were to lose my PM now.

    Of course, someone who hasn't trained with power wouldn't have the same perspective to fall back on, but looking back I don't really feel that the HRM did much for me beyond the journalling assistance which the software provided.


    I'll second that Frenchy - forget about a HRM - of no real use whatsoever.πŸ˜‰

  6. Sillyoldtwit said:

    I'll second that Frenchy - forget about a HRM - of no real use whatsoever.πŸ˜‰


    Actually, I just thought of one thing that it did for me. Staring at that number and trying to make it go up into a target range taught me to push past the self-imposed limits of tired legs and heavy breathing, and then figure out a way, *any* way, to hold it for the prescribed period of time. I think I've internalized that now, so I wouldn't go back to the HRM at this point.

    So, while I don't really feel the HRM is of any real use *to me*, it still may be of use to someone who has never trained with any sort of objective measurement.

  7. frenchyge said:

    If someone took my PM away, I don't think I'd go back to HR knowing what I know now. I think I would train by doing intervals of nearly as hard as I could for the duration of the interval, which is similar to RDO's approach of doing everything at 90% of what you're capable of (a simplification). When speed started dropping off dramatically at the end of an interval, I'd take my rest period without worrying about whether I was at 20 minutes or 18. When I could no longer hold the target speed for a meaningful length of time, I'd end the workout. I think I could do effective intervals without power or HR, if I were to lose my PM now.

    Damn good answer. I would do exactly the same thing. I still ride with my HR strap (unlike some PM users who have long since left it on the shelf), but I use it in a very different way than most who ride with a HRM. The 1st use is that if I see a significantly lower HR at the end of an effort than normal (e.g., 5bpm lower at the end of a 20min effort at 100%FTP), I am prepared to bump my power a bit for the next effort on the assumption that I have increased power. The 2nd use is that I look at how quickly my HR drops after an effort that pushes my HR up to 90+%MHR, as a measure of my overall fitness. I know that if my HR doesn't drop from 90%MHR to 60%MHR within 2mins that I am still not as fit as I should be. When it drops to 60%MHR within 90secs I know that I am approaching race fitness.

  8. frenchyge said:

    Actually, I just thought of one thing that it did for me. Staring at that number and trying to make it go up into a target range taught me to push past the self-imposed limits of tired legs and heavy breathing, and then figure out a way, *any* way, to hold it for the prescribed period of time. I think I've internalized that now, so I wouldn't go back to the HRM at this point.

    So, while I don't really feel the HRM is of any real use *to me*, it still may be of use to someone who has never trained with any sort of objective measurement.

    Exactly - this is especially true for someone who has only been riding for one year. I remember when I first got a HRM how it helped me refine RPE and recognize the different degrees of 'going hard.'

    But I still maintain that HR information is useful for training, especially when combined with power info. When it comes to my training, there's no such thing as 'too much information.'

  9. frenchyge said:


    So, while I don't really feel the HRM is of any real use *to me*, it still may be of use to someone who has never trained with any sort of objective measurement.


    Recovery. You can time intervals (for instance) to start when your HR drops below a prescribed level.

    Or with Juniors especially a coach can tell make sure an easy ride is an easy ride by limiting the HR. Of course, the advice has to be heeded.

  10. Spunout said:

    Recovery. You can time intervals (for instance) to start when your HR drops below a prescribed level.

    Actually, this doesn't work for me. My HR drops too quickly if I am anywhere near race fit. I use my watch to time my recovery durations.

  11. frenchyge said:

    So, while I don't really feel the HRM is of any real use *to me*, it still may be of use to someone who has never trained with any sort of objective measurement.


    What I think it might be useful for (assuming it's a downloadable HRM) is tracking training load using TRIMPS in the absence of a powermeter. While I just estimate an IF (and of course I can measure the duration) for rides I have no PM data for, someone who hasnever used a PM is going to have a harder time estimating in those parameters.

    For actual riding itself, I would just use PE and a watch (can be integrated into a cyclometer or HRM). That's practically how I use a powermeter for most interval workouts anyway.

  12. Spunout said:

    You can time intervals (for instance) to start when your HR drops below a prescribed level.

    And the scientific/physiological rationale for this approach is...?

  13. frenchyge said:

    Actually, I just thought of one thing that it did for me. Staring at that number and trying to make it go up into a target range taught me to push past the self-imposed limits of tired legs and heavy breathing, and then figure out a way, *any* way, to hold it for the prescribed period of time. I think I've internalized that now, so I wouldn't go back to the HRM at this point.

    So, while I don't really feel the HRM is of any real use *to me*, it still may be of use to someone who has never trained with any sort of objective measurement.

    I agree with these thoughts. I'm no expert - others on this forum have many more years of experience than I do of training methods - but, (much as I'd love a PM) having trained vie PE (perceived exertion) and HRM, I prefer the extra data that the HRM gives you (but I'm a mathematical type). I find it useful for pushing me into the L4 zone and pushing myself to keep me there. It isn't ideal - I recognise that - especially due to the slowness of response and the lack of clarity /precision as to which zone you might be in above L4, but for me I'd rather have it and be aware of it's weaknesses than not at all.

    Attached document, which RDO helpfully posted for me, talks about the training zones many here appear to be using, in both power and HRM terms; also has some of the pros and cons in more detail than I mention.

    And, remember this (until you can afford a PM!) that there were lots of great, great cyclists who excelled through hard work and determination without the benefit of PM, HRM or any of the modern aids.

    As someone else says - enjoy the training !

    Hope this is clickable:

    midweekclub.comcoggan.pdf.

  14. Spunout said:

    Recovery. You can time intervals (for instance) to start when your HR drops below a prescribed level.

    Or with Juniors especially a coach can tell make sure an easy ride is an easy ride by limiting the HR. Of course, the advice has to be heeded.


    As an ex runner, we used to do a lot of varied interval work and after a while without taking your pulse you knew when your HR had returned to 120 and off you went again on the next interval. I'm sure I wasn't out by more than a few beats a minute. TYSON πŸ˜‰

  15. Sillyoldtwit said:

    As an ex runner, we used to do a lot of varied interval work and after a while without taking your pulse you knew when your HR had returned to 120 and off you went again on the next interval. I'm sure I wasn't out by more than a few beats a minute. TYSON πŸ˜‰

    But, as Dr. C so politely alluded to above, there's no basis for the linkage between HR andd recovery. So, this is likely a dead end street.

  16. Though I can understand pure powermeter proponents (as a triathlon specialist, I am *impure* :o ) I must concure with jbvcoaching. (Sorry guys.. but I don't disagree with you anyway).

    As long as one doesn't use hr to limit himself, iow to calibrate a set, or even a training session, I think hr data still provides a clue about the physiological stress under which an athlete is placed mid and long term.

    And so my humble little advice to df69, if he chooses to use hr monitor, is to properly log all that data. But don't use an HR monitor to limit yourself. Look at it while riding if you want, but don't take decisions (such as slowing down) based on it.

    If you ever work with a coach someday, he will appreciate taking a look at this carefully logged data. The first thing a good coach wants to do, is to get to know you asap. This is to commit as few mistakes as possible.

    Ideally log
    - Date/time
    - Goals (ideally expressed using zones)
    - Duration (per segment in case of intervals, with corresponding zone)
    - HR (per segment in case of intervals)
    - Performance indicator (speed when applicable. E.g. if you ride the same flat course once a week to record avg speed over the total duration)
    - RPE (scaled 1-10 with the .5, or 1-20)
    - Your comments
    and other information that you might find relevant.

    You may also want to use wko+ to manually log all this data. Maybe someday it will automatically generate performance manager charts based on HR who knows πŸ™„

  17. SolarEnergy said:

    Maybe someday it will automatically generate performance manager charts based on HR who knows πŸ™„


    It already does! You can create periodic charts on your home page to display HRavg, HRmax, or Mean Maximal HR over any duration. Hmmm, I'm surprised you didn't know that.... πŸ˜‰

  18. frenchyge said:

    It already does! You can create periodic charts on your home page to display HRavg, HRmax, or Mean Maximal HR over any duration. Hmmm, I'm surprised you didn't know that.... [img]cyclingforums.comwink.gif[/img]

    I think solar means a PMC with ATL/CTL/TSB using a weighted average TSS-like number generated from HR data, not power data. Mind you I think you're simply better off estimating a TSS rather than trying to interpret HR data that way (I would very much doubt CP would bother to develop such a tool).

  19. Lactate Threshold training zones is a good system to train by as the HR Zones will be much more accurate and usefull than those determined by a Max HR test or some silly mathematical equation.

    Power Meters are still ridiculously expensive at this point in time so i would suggest investing your money in something else that will improve your performance. As you are about to enter the U19 cat. you might want to look at a good set of race wheels. Remember that apart fron the engine, the wheels are the most important part of the bike.

    I'm sure you will definately reach the goals you have set out to achieve in the future. You are keen, enthusiastic and hungry.
    That's what i like to see.

  20. bikecoach said:

    Lactate Threshold training zones is a good system to train by as the HR Zones will be much more accurate and usefull than those determined by a Max HR test or some silly mathematical equation.

    is it?

    Quoted post said:


    Power Meters are still ridiculously expensive at this point in time so i would suggest investing your money in something else that will improve your performance. As you are about to enter the U19 cat. you might want to look at a good set of race wheels. Remember that apart fron the engine, the wheels are the most important part of the bike.

    coaching, power meter, then worry about bling. anything else is the wrong order (although some may argue that it should be power meter, coaching, bling).

    Ric

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