Trail magazine ... again

"Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit

of

Quoted message said:

bad advice. I got this from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004

is

Quoted message said:

WRONG - it would take you over the north face.

In the words of the old (not-PC) song: "Another little job for the Undertaker Another little job for
the tombstone maker........"

"Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit

of

Quoted message said:

bad advice. I got this from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004

is

Quoted message said:

WRONG - it would take you over the north face.

We've put correct details on the MCofS website.

I'm not going to defend that! They've (recklessly) omitted the initial bearing which takes you clear
of Gardyloo Gully. Proper descent bearings here scotclimb.org.uknevisplateau.htmlOpen ↗

KRO

"Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit

of

Quoted message said:

bad advice. I got this from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004

is

Quoted message said:

WRONG - it would take you over the north face.

I'm sure that even the people at Trail qualify as humans. We (humans) make mistakes.

Treefrog said:

"Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit

of

Quoted message said:

bad advice. I got this from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004

is

Quoted message said:

WRONG - it would take you over the north face.

I'm sure that even the people at Trail qualify as humans. We (humans) make mistakes.

Mistakes I can forgive, but this is one almighty [censored]! Is there such an offence as causing death
by printing without due care and attention?
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:16:08 +0000, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> uttered:

Quoted message said:

Treefrog said:

"Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit

of

Quoted message said:

bad advice. I got this from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004

is

Quoted message said:

WRONG - it would take you over the north face.

I'm sure that even the people at Trail qualify as humans. We (humans) make mistakes.

Mistakes I can forgive, but this is one almighty [censored]! Is there such an offence as causing death
by printing without due care and attention?

Shouldn't people check things themselves before using?

--
Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

Dewi said:

Shouldn't people check things themselves before using?

Not necessarily that easy in the case of walking off the Ben. People should certainly check safety
critical information before publishing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

On 20/1/04 1:35 pm, in article [email hidden],

Dewi said:

Shouldn't people check things themselves before using?

I think that must be right! I know Trail isn't everybody's cup of tea - I guess most of us here are
well into TGO age territory. But they do make walking sound exciting and, well, youngish. And that
isn't really such a bad thing IMHO.

Peter Clinch said:

Dewi said:

Shouldn't people check things themselves before using?

Not necessarily that easy in the case of walking off the Ben. People should certainly check safety
critical information before publishing.

I wouldn't think about doing something like this without checking out things with (at least) one
good walking book.

Phil Cook said:

Treefrog said:

"Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit

of

Quoted message said:

bad advice. I got this from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004

is

Quoted message said:

WRONG - it would take you over the north face.

I'm sure that even the people at Trail qualify as humans. We (humans) make mistakes.

Mistakes I can forgive, but this is one almighty [censored]! Is there such an offence as causing death
by printing without due care and attention?

I think the offence you're thinking of is taking your own life by mindlessly relying on someone
elses map reading ability. Otherwise known as criminal stupidity 😉

If you can't read a map and use a compass for yourself you should not even be on the summit of
Ben Nevis.

regards

Tim Jones

Tim Jones said:

If you can't read a map and use a compass for yourself you should not even be on the summit of
Ben Nevis.

Now you try reading your map in a gale force blizzard and see how easy it is to check bearings...

I agree it shouldn't be fatal to people thinking clearly and carefully about it, but that doesn't
excuse it. A national magazine with a wide circulation will often be taken as a trusted source, for
better or (possibly in this case) for worse.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

No Comment!

Richard Webb

Peter Clinch said:

Tim Jones wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you can't read a map and use a compass for yourself you should not even be on the summit of
Ben Nevis.

Quoted message said:

Now you try reading your map in a gale force blizzard and see how easy it is to check bearings...

Before setting off for something like the summit of Ben Nevis, you ought to have checked your maps,
bearing, waypoints, whatever, against a suitable map to make sure you had a reasonably foolproof and
checkable-on-the-spot retreat-in-fog method.

Quoted message said:

I agree it shouldn't be fatal to people thinking clearly and carefully about it, but that doesn't
excuse it. A national magazine with a wide circulation will often be taken as a trusted source, for
better or (possibly in this case) for worse.

And they should also caution you against relying on raw unchecked numbers copied from a magazine,
bus shelter, toilet wall, whatever, as an emergency survival guide. Apart from possible errors in
the source, it's not uncommon for people to make mistakes in copying down numbers.

It doesn't have to be Ben Nevis where a walker can get dangerously lost in fog. Little old Arthur's
Seat in Edinburgh is only 250m high and can be ascended by most folk in a 40 minute walk. But the
summit is very near some cliffs, and summer fogs can sometimes roll in from the Forth and reduce
visibility to a few yards. I've twice had to rescue summer family parties up there who were
panicking and uncontrolled teenagers were trying to "run back down into the sun" in all directions.
Quite how they had managed to be admiring the view for half an hour without noticing the
implications of the rising tide of fog, and managed to suppose the sun was still somehow still "down
there" boggles the mind.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peter Clinch said:

Dewi said:

Shouldn't people check things themselves before using?

Not necessarily that easy in the case of walking off the Ben. People should certainly check safety
critical information before publishing.

Pete.

I mean lets face it, just how tricky is it to read a bearing from a map!
--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Peter Clinch said:

Tim Jones said:

If you can't read a map and use a compass for yourself you should not even be on the summit of
Ben Nevis.

Now you try reading your map in a gale force blizzard and see how easy it is to check bearings...

Thats why the individual should have a good idea of the descent before they hit the top. If you can
read the info in a mag and carry it with you you really should have checked it out againest your own
map before you set out.

Quoted message said:

I agree it shouldn't be fatal to people thinking clearly and carefully about it, but that doesn't
excuse it. A national magazine with a wide circulation will often be taken as a trusted source, for
better or (possibly in this case) for worse.

Lemmings spring to mind!

It's natural selection in action.

Never ever follow the fool in front, especially if they are any sort of journalist 😉

Regards

Tim Jones

Treefrog said:

I'm sure that even the people at Trail qualify as humans. We (humans) make mistakes.

What else are they getting wrong?

Bob

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:41:39 +0000 (UTC), this came from

(Tim Jones). who said:

Thats why the individual should have a good idea of the descent before they hit the top. If you can
read the info in a mag and carry it with you you really should have checked it out againest your
own map before you set out.

Fine. But if they get this wrong what else are they getting wrong? How reliable are they
on anything?

[censored]

I haven't seen too many folk navigating by a magazine, but I suppose the moral of the story is that,
if you load up your bearings to the GPS using Trail info, just make sure you've packed a parachute!
Very similar thing happened to a friend of mine on Ben Alder two winters ago. Far too dependant on
the preset GPS data and despite doubts by his walking buddy, walked straight off one of the cliffs.
His buddy made it down to the bothy to get help, couldn't get a signal on his phone, had to climb
back up Ben Alder, got a signal, and called Mountain Rescue. This was all in near white out, and the
funny thing is, after up and down and up Ben Alder, the buddies dog was too frightened to get in the
helicopter and they had to walk out!

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:03:11 -0000, "Duncan Gray" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the new issue, but it appears the've published another bit of bad advice. I got this
from the MCofS Safety Adviser this afternoon:

BEN NEVIS - DANGEROUS BEARING TRAIL Magazine February 2004

The descent bearing which was provided on Page 105 of Trail February 2004 is WRONG - it would take
you over the north face.

We've put correct details on the MCofS website.

Radio 2 announced a public apology from Trail on the news for making a "small mistake"

I'd argue with the adjective used meself but....
--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

"Iain" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen too many folk navigating by a magazine, but I suppose the moral of the story is
that, if you load up your bearings to the GPS using Trail info, just make sure you've packed a
parachute! Very similar thing happened to a friend of mine on Ben Alder two winters ago. Far too
dependant on the preset GPS data and despite doubts by his walking buddy, walked straight off one
of the cliffs. His buddy made it

down

Quoted message said:

to the bothy to get help, couldn't get a signal on his phone, had to climb back up Ben Alder, got
a signal, and called Mountain Rescue. This was all

in

Quoted message said:

near white out, and the funny thing is, after up and down and up Ben

Alder,

Quoted message said:

the buddies dog was too frightened to get in the helicopter and they had

to

Quoted message said:

walk out!

Surely the preset GPS data was entered incorrectly, or the wrong data was entered in the first
place? Which was it, do you remember?

KRO