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Tragedy--Possibly Preventable

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Road Cycling
Published
3 September 2005
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6 September 2005
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  1. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600159683,00.html

    The accident described in this article happened at my son's school.
    The victim, Gregorio Rodriguez (his name has now been officially released)
    had just finished his first day of high school when he was killed. The
    fact that he was on a bicycle is almost incidental--the maniac who killed
    him would have done the same thing if he'd been walking, or in a
    wheelchair for that matter. Being on a bike probably did put Gregorio on
    the street side of the group of students he was in.
    But what the article does not say is that this homicide happened along
    a street that repeatedly goes from two lanes to four and back again, and
    in an area with little road shoulder, no curb, and no sidewalk.
    Separation of cars from people might have prevented it--we'll never know.
    The only good that ever comes out of tragedies like this is the good it
    brings out in the survivors. The students at the school raised $4300 for
    the victim's funeral expenses in under a week. And surprisingly, a rival
    school clear across town spontaneously took up its own collection and
    raised another $1000. At least the Rodriguez family won't have a
    financial burden to deal with along with the heartbreak of losing a loved
    one.
    And at least one cyclist, me, is writing the mayor an angry letter
    asking why, in this city, is there always money for new roads, but seldom
    money to make the roads accommodate non-cagers. Anyone who wants to toss
    in their two cents' worth, feel free to write Mayor Dennis Nordfelt, 3600
    Constitution Blvd., West Valley City, UT 84119-3720.

    Bill

    -----------------------------------
    | We must be the change we seek. |
    | --Mohandas K. Ghandi |
    -----------------------------------

  2. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600159683,00.html
    Anyone who wants to toss
    in their two cents' worth, feel free to write Mayor Dennis Nordfelt, 3600
    Constitution Blvd., West Valley City, UT 84119-3720.

    What a horrible thing for the families of the kids involved.

    It's hard to know what the mayor will do. The guy ran his car up onto a
    sidewalk to murder a kid on a bike. The guy was drunk.

    I'd be willing to bet that the guy has had several prior DUIs. This is a
    recurring story. I read all the time about people being arrested for a
    fifth, sixth, seventh... DUI. Ridiculous. Revoke the license, they'll
    drive without a license. Take the car, they'll beg / borrow / buy / steal
    another.

    Society won't accept the death penalty for vehicular murder. How about a
    new penalty structure for DUI. First conviction -- no more driving. Second
    conviction -- put out their eyes. Some will probably still try to drive,
    though.

  3. Bob the Cow said:


    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600159683,00.html
    Anyone who wants to toss
    in their two cents' worth, feel free to write Mayor Dennis Nordfelt, 3600
    Constitution Blvd., West Valley City, UT 84119-3720.

    What a horrible thing for the families of the kids involved.

    It's hard to know what the mayor will do. The guy ran his car up onto a
    sidewalk to murder a kid on a bike. The guy was drunk.

    I'd be willing to bet that the guy has had several prior DUIs. This is a
    recurring story. I read all the time about people being arrested for a
    fifth, sixth, seventh... DUI. Ridiculous. Revoke the license, they'll
    drive without a license. Take the car, they'll beg / borrow / buy / steal
    another.

    Society won't accept the death penalty for vehicular murder. How about a
    new penalty structure for DUI. First conviction -- no more driving. Second
    conviction -- put out their eyes. Some will probably still try to drive,
    though.

    The problem is they take the 'drunken' status of the driver as a mitigating
    factor - 'oh he was too drunk to know what he's doing'.

    IMO, that's BS. I'd like to see decapitation with a rusty butterknife for
    leaving the roadway to intentionally kill a child. 😠

    I was reading in the recent Pro Bike magazine (or World Cycling) about the
    driver that ran down the Women's cycling team by ignoring the posted
    traffic director personnel and going into their lane. It was an 18 y.o.
    woman. ( I thought I heard it was an 80 y.o. man?)

    Even in the cycling magazine it said 'women's cyclists hit by car'.

    EXCUSE ME? They were run down by a person and the person's NAME should be
    published (maybe after the trial), but -still-. Dayum - the -car- didn't
    kill her - the moron driving it did. Ok, pet peeve, but I friggin' hate
    that. Hit by car. Hit by truck. Bullsh*t. It's like there's no
    accountability for running over a person on a bicycle. You'd think a
    cycling publication would say 'woman runs down entire cycling team'...

    jj

  4. Quoted message said:


    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600159683,00.html

    I've a brother in Grand Junction, Colo. (not too far from Utah); he says
    that it's very common for drivers to throw things at him, swerve to
    almost hit him and so forth. He's fallen several times because of it.

    --
    Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
    Physics is very muddled again at the moment; it is much too hard for me
    anyway, and I wish I were a movie comedian or something like that and
    had never heard anything about physics!
    --Wolfgang Pauli: Austrian Physicist in the US; (Nobel Prize, 1935)

  5. Quoted message said:

    And at least one cyclist, me, is writing the mayor an angry letter
    asking why, in this city, is there always money for new roads, but seldom
    money to make the roads accommodate non-cagers. Anyone who wants to toss
    in their two cents' worth, feel free to write Mayor Dennis Nordfelt, 3600
    Constitution Blvd., West Valley City, UT 84119-3720.

    Get real. The kid was on a sidewalk and a drunk purposely hit him. This
    has nothing to do with roads "accommodat(ing) non-cagers."

    I've never seen a road that doesn't accommodate bicyclists. Every one is
    wider than my bike.

    Wayne

  6. Bob the Cow said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600159683,00.html
    Anyone who wants to toss
    in their two cents' worth, feel free to write Mayor Dennis Nordfelt, 3600
    Constitution Blvd., West Valley City, UT 84119-3720.

    What a horrible thing for the families of the kids involved.

    It's hard to know what the mayor will do. The guy ran his car up onto a
    sidewalk to murder a kid on a bike. The guy was drunk.

    I'd be willing to bet that the guy has had several prior DUIs. This is a
    recurring story. I read all the time about people being arrested for a
    fifth, sixth, seventh... DUI. Ridiculous. Revoke the license, they'll
    drive without a license. Take the car, they'll beg / borrow / buy / steal
    another.

    Here is what I think would be a good penalty:

    First drunk driving conviction, your licence is suspended for 5 years.
    You have 5 years to think about it, then you get a letter, your waiting
    period is over, now you can apply for a licence, except for one thing,
    when they erased your suspension they erased your licence with it, you
    start all over again as if you have never driven before, ever. The only
    good thing, the insurance company can't charge you extra for drunk
    driving, but they can charge you as a new driver.....

    Quoted message said:

    Society won't accept the death penalty for vehicular murder. How about a
    new penalty structure for DUI. First conviction -- no more driving. Second
    conviction -- put out their eyes. Some will probably still try to drive,
    though.

    If your caught driving during your suspension, then it's clear you not
    responsible enough to be left alone, serve out the rest of your
    suspension, in jail. When you get out, then you can start all over
    again, with no licence.

    As for killing someone, their family should be able to sue you, for the
    entire earnings potential of that person until they reach 65. Gee, a
    teen in high school with good marks, could easily earn $25,000,000 with
    a good career.

    Since drinking is a voluntary action, and so is driving, your insurance
    company, should be allowed to leave you twisting in the wind.

    W

  7. Wayne Pein said:

    Get real. The kid was on a sidewalk and a drunk purposely hit him. This
    has nothing to do with roads "accommodat(ing) non-cagers."

    In my book, a road in an urban environment includes, or should include,
    the paved car lanes, a reasonable amount of paved shoulder for cyclists,
    parking, changing flats, or whatever, plus a curb and a sidewalk. In West
    Valley City Utah, it seems like there's always money for roads and cars,
    but never enough for anything else. Witness an intersection I pass
    through daily, where for the second time in a year, the road has been
    resurfaced and immediately restriped for cars, but the crosswalk goes
    weeks without being repainted. Witness several roads in the area that
    have been converted from two lanes to four by eliminating the shoulders.
    Witness likewise several places on this berg's main drag where there are
    buildings so near the street that pedestrians and wheelchairs are abruptly
    forced into the traffic lanes. Witness too a couple of places where the
    sidewalks that do exist abruptly end--in dropoffs of about three feet.
    The city fathers found the funds to build the 2002 Olympic hockey venue
    and an elaborate practice facility, but can't scratch up the bucks for a
    bike lane or a sidewalk.
    Nearby Salt Lake City was just listed by Outside magazine as one of the
    best places in America to live, partly because its mayor is so bicycle
    conscious. WVC is the exact opposite; its attitude is somewhere between
    indifferent and hostile.
    The place where this homicide happened has NO sidewalk, and only a very
    narrow bit of pavement right of the fog line. The nice thing about curbs
    is that they provide a clear demarcation between vehicles and pedestrians,
    and they can deflect cars if the angle of attack (what an appropriate
    term) is shallow enough. The school the victim went to has 2200 students,
    and the street is major enough that the local transit authority is talking
    about someday running a light rail line the length of it. Seems to me
    that's enough to warrant consistent width and a curb and sidewalk.
    This cyclist was stopped and having a conversation, no telling if he'd
    have been hit if he'd been in motion, but a curb couldn't have hurt and
    might have helped.

    Bill

    -----------------------------------------
    | The means are the ends in the making. |
    | -- Mohandas K. Gandhi |
    -----------------------------------------

  8. "Marlene Blanshay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    We got a torrential rainstorm on wednesday, about 80mm of rain, and it was
    still windy next day, although not too bad. Yesterday we had gale force
    winds and rain in the afternoon. Finally today it's better but still kind
    of windy. SOme branches and trees fell down and some streets flooded and
    there were power failures,but of course needless to say, nothing like
    NO.How did everyone else get affected?

    ANd there's another storm on the way!

    I dunno where your getting it from - not us. It was a beautiful ride today!
    A little breezy but 0 humidity and a blue sky filled with big fluffy clouds.
    The only effects of Katrina seems to be gas station signs indicating
    $1.26/litre gas.

    No matter to me as I pedal past.

    🙂

    I did notice the slightest nip in the air when the breeze blew and the sun
    went behind a cloud - a harbinger of autumn.

    --
    'Our religion is to go and blow it all
    So it's shopping every Sunday at the mall'
    -shania twain

  9. Quoted message said:

    The place where this homicide happened has NO sidewalk, and only a very
    narrow bit of pavement right of the fog line. The nice thing about curbs
    is that they provide a clear demarcation between vehicles and pedestrians,
    and they can deflect cars if the angle of attack (what an appropriate
    term) is shallow enough. The school the victim went to has 2200 students,
    and the street is major enough that the local transit authority is talking
    about someday running a light rail line the length of it. Seems to me
    that's enough to warrant consistent width and a curb and sidewalk.
    This cyclist was stopped and having a conversation, no telling if he'd
    have been hit if he'd been in motion, but a curb couldn't have hurt and
    might have helped.

    Even if everything you say about West Valley City neglecting cyclists'
    needs is true, you've picked the wrong incident to highlight that
    neglect. If, as the police spokesman quoted in the article said appears
    to be the case, the driver *intentionally* drove off the roadway to
    strike the kid then no curb, painted line on the pavement, wide
    shoulder, or bike lane would have made any difference. Perhaps a
    barrier wall would have helped but don't you think erecting 2'-3' high
    walls along both sides of every stretch of roadway would be a bit
    extreme not to mention impractical?

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

  10. Quoted message said:
    Wayne Pein said:

    Get real. The kid was on a sidewalk and a drunk purposely hit him. This
    has nothing to do with roads "accommodat(ing) non-cagers."

    In my book, a road in an urban environment includes, or should include,
    the paved car lanes, a reasonable amount of paved shoulder for cyclists,
    parking, changing flats, or whatever, plus a curb and a sidewalk.

    Shoulders are vehicle recovery areas, not for operating on. Bicycle
    drivers should use your so-called "car lanes." If a busy road is to be
    made more "comfortable" for bicyclists by allowing motorists to pass
    more easily, then the lane should be wide. This gives bicyclists maximum
    freedom to use as much of the road as they want rather than confining
    them to a narrow area behind a stripe. Freeway design roads could
    justifiably have bike lanes.

    Wayne

  11. Bob said:

    Even if everything you say about West Valley City neglecting cyclists'
    needs is true, you've picked the wrong incident to highlight that
    neglect. If, as the police spokesman quoted in the article said appears
    to be the case, the driver *intentionally* drove off the roadway to
    strike the kid then no curb, painted line on the pavement, wide
    shoulder, or bike lane would have made any difference. Perhaps a
    barrier wall would have helped but don't you think erecting 2'-3' high
    walls along both sides of every stretch of roadway would be a bit
    extreme not to mention impractical?

    Would a cager deliberately try to drive over a 12" barrier curb at speed?
    (Doing so would total most motor vehicles.)

    --
    Sock Puppet

  12. We got a torrential rainstorm on wednesday, about 80mm of rain, and it
    was still windy next day, although not too bad. Yesterday we had gale
    force winds and rain in the afternoon. Finally today it's better but
    still kind of windy. SOme branches and trees fell down and some streets
    flooded and there were power failures,but of course needless to say,
    nothing like NO.How did everyone else get affected?

    ANd there's another storm on the way!

  13. lowkey said:

    "Marlene Blanshay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    We got a torrential rainstorm on wednesday, about 80mm of rain, and it was
    still windy next day, although not too bad. Yesterday we had gale force
    winds and rain in the afternoon. Finally today it's better but still kind
    of windy. SOme branches and trees fell down and some streets flooded and
    there were power failures,but of course needless to say, nothing like
    NO.How did everyone else get affected?

    ANd there's another storm on the way!

    I dunno where your getting it from - not us. It was a beautiful ride today!
    A little breezy but 0 humidity and a blue sky filled with big fluffy clouds.
    The only effects of Katrina seems to be gas station signs indicating
    $1.26/litre gas.

    No matter to me as I pedal past.

    🙂

    I did notice the slightest nip in the air when the breeze blew and the sun
    went behind a cloud - a harbinger of autumn.

    No, today was nice but my time was limited for rides as I had to get
    back early. SO it was a short one- it was a tad breezy, though. The rest
    of labor day weeken promises to be great- and in fact, even warmer for
    tuesday and wednesday. WHEE!

  14. Sock Puppet said:
    Bob said:

    Even if everything you say about West Valley City neglecting cyclists'
    needs is true, you've picked the wrong incident to highlight that
    neglect. If, as the police spokesman quoted in the article said appears
    to be the case, the driver *intentionally* drove off the roadway to
    strike the kid then no curb, painted line on the pavement, wide
    shoulder, or bike lane would have made any difference. Perhaps a
    barrier wall would have helped but don't you think erecting 2'-3' high
    walls along both sides of every stretch of roadway would be a bit
    extreme not to mention impractical?

    Would a cager deliberately try to drive over a 12" barrier curb at speed?
    (Doing so would total most motor vehicles.)

    A 'curb' is onlu about 4 to MAYBE 6 inches, though, not 12.

    Jasper

  15. Jasper Janssen said:
    Sock Puppet said:
    Bob said:

    Even if everything you say about West Valley City neglecting cyclists'
    needs is true, you've picked the wrong incident to highlight that
    neglect. If, as the police spokesman quoted in the article said appears
    to be the case, the driver *intentionally* drove off the roadway to
    strike the kid then no curb, painted line on the pavement, wide
    shoulder, or bike lane would have made any difference. Perhaps a
    barrier wall would have helped but don't you think erecting 2'-3' high
    walls along both sides of every stretch of roadway would be a bit
    extreme not to mention impractical?

    Would a cager deliberately try to drive over a 12" barrier curb at speed?
    (Doing so would total most motor vehicles.)

    A 'curb' is onlu about 4 to MAYBE 6 inches, though, not 12.

    A "mountable*" curb would be that height, and would be radiused at the top
    and bottom in addition to sloping away from the roadway. A barrier curb is
    designed to PREVENT vehicles from exiting the roadway and has a vertical
    face and a height of 10+ inches. Unless you are driving something like this
    fire truck <http://www.emergencysi.com/IMAG0012.JPG> you are not driving
    over such a curb at speed without significant damage.

    *No, not that kind of mounting, Mr. Sornson.

    --
    Sock Puppet

  16. Sock Puppet said:

    A "mountable*" curb would be that height, and would be radiused at
    the top and bottom in addition to sloping away from the roadway. A
    barrier curb is designed to PREVENT vehicles from exiting the roadway
    and has a vertical face and a height of 10+ inches. Unless you are
    driving something like this fire truck
    <http://www.emergencysi.com/IMAG0012.JPG> you are not driving over
    such a curb at speed without significant damage.

    *No, not that kind of mounting, Mr. Sornson.

    Neil, send the puppet that video of a big-ass truck being stopped dead in
    its tracks by a cement barrier. Pretty impressive.

    (PSSP: mount /this/ :-D )

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