Tracking problem

Badger_South wrote:

|| tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not ride
|| it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands when
|| you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, imo.

Huh? How'd you get that opinion?

Roger Zoul said:

Badger_South wrote:

|| tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not ride
|| it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands when
|| you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, imo.

Huh? How'd you get that opinion?

I'm curious too. My first bike wouldn't ride no-hands at all. Not
even a little bit. I rode a double century on that one (10.5 hours
on the bike).

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"I don't see anything wrong with being arrogant
and not at all helpful." -- Paul Tomblin

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:49:17 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Badger_South wrote:

|| tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not ride
|| it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands when
|| you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, imo.

Huh? How'd you get that opinion?

That's so you can sit up and stretch your back, change your gloves, get
somthing out of you back jersey pocket. I used to be able to ride for 5-10
min at a time no hands, totally stable on my old steel Sears&Robuck
schwinn-style twelve-speed.

Most old timers will say 'sheesh, if you're not in a race, pull over sit
and eat'.

But guess what? At some point you'll want to eat on the bike or change your
gloves or shirt, and if you don't practice it, you won't be able to do it.

It's also nice, if you need to clean your glasses, and you've brought some
tissue, after a rain storm.

Part of bike handling 101 regardless; iow, you may never -need- to use that
skill, but you should have it and be comfortable doing it, imo.

I picked 90" to 2 hours as the point at which some ppl start eating and
drinking during the ride. You say 3 hours, I don't disagree.

-B

Badger_South wrote:
|| On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:49:17 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| Badger_South wrote:
|||
||||| tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not
||||| ride it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands
||||| when you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, imo.
|||
||| Huh? How'd you get that opinion?
||
|| That's so you can sit up and stretch your back, change your gloves,
|| get somthing out of you back jersey pocket. I used to be able to
|| ride for 5-10 min at a time no hands, totally stable on my old steel
|| Sears&Robuck schwinn-style twelve-speed.
||
|| Most old timers will say 'sheesh, if you're not in a race, pull over
|| sit and eat'.
||
|| But guess what? At some point you'll want to eat on the bike or
|| change your gloves or shirt, and if you don't practice it, you won't
|| be able to do it.
||
|| It's also nice, if you need to clean your glasses, and you've
|| brought some tissue, after a rain storm.
||
|| Part of bike handling 101 regardless; iow, you may never -need- to
|| use that skill, but you should have it and be comfortable doing it,
|| imo.
||
|| I picked 90" to 2 hours as the point at which some ppl start eating
|| and drinking during the ride. You say 3 hours, I don't disagree.

Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to stretch or eat
or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so there's no need to do
other things while riding. I don't need the hassle of getting hurt
needlessly. Income to protect, responsibilities, etc. YMMV.

BTW, I usually get off the bike at about 20 miles, so your 1.5 hours is
about right for me.

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:50:19 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

|| I picked 90" to 2 hours as the point at which some ppl start eating
|| and drinking during the ride. You say 3 hours, I don't disagree.

Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to stretch or eat
or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so there's no need to do
other things while riding. I don't need the hassle of getting hurt
needlessly. Income to protect, responsibilities, etc. YMMV.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't expect to fall off the bike at
speed, but I still ride and I go down hills and reach 35mph. That's gotta
be more dangerous than riding no hands to get something out of your jersey
back pocket, such as a dispo. camera.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I usually get off the bike at about 20 miles, so your 1.5 hours is
about right for me

My experience may be different, b/c I don't equate riding with no hands as
dangerous at all, given you don't pick the wrong time or part of the road
to do it sparingly. I'm not advocating riding that way to impress the babes
or anything.

It isnt' even so much that, as it's irritating to -not- be able to ride no
hands, even coasting, and take off your sunglasses and put on your spares.

So you telling me you're just over-cautious, or that never having done that
you have none of the skills. You'll never get on a unicycle, then? Just
askin', not trying to be a butt.

I've never even come close to getting hurt or even a hint of it, and I used
to do it a lot with my paper route. I'd fold the papers while riding and
throw them up on the porch.

As I said, it's part of bike handling, imo. Sure, elect not to do it much,
but don't totally avoid having the skill set.

-B
Several of my cycling books talk about it, and one mentions it's necessary
skill, but not sure of their context. I'll look it up if you like.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to stretch or

eat

Quoted message said:

or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so there's no need to

do

Quoted message said:

other things while riding. I don't need the hassle of getting hurt
needlessly. Income to protect, responsibilities, etc. YMMV.

There's nothing particularly hazardous about riding no-hands. It's a useful
skill, too. The only time I don't do it is when I'm in a pace line. I don't
use aerobars then, either. I think they're pretty equivalent. I'll
sometimes ride a 30 mile loop entirely in the aerobars. I did it once
no-handed just to see if I could.

Dane Jackson said:

Roger Zoul said:

Badger_South wrote:

|| tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not ride
|| it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands when
|| you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, imo.

Huh? How'd you get that opinion?

I'm curious too. My first bike wouldn't ride no-hands at all. Not
even a little bit. I rode a double century on that one (10.5 hours
on the bike).

Tell me you rode a double century and didn't eat on the bike? Didn't want
to sit up once and arch your back? Gnarly.

-B

Peter Cole wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote
||
||| Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to
||| stretch or eat or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so
||| there's no need to do other things while riding. I don't need the
||| hassle of getting hurt needlessly. Income to protect,
||| responsibilities, etc. YMMV.
||
|| There's nothing particularly hazardous about riding no-hands. It's a
|| useful skill, too. The only time I don't do it is when I'm in a pace
|| line. I don't use aerobars then, either. I think they're pretty
|| equivalent. I'll sometimes ride a 30 mile loop entirely in the
|| aerobars. I did it once no-handed just to see if I could.

You road a 30-mile loop no-handed?

Badger_South said:

Tell me you rode a double century and didn't eat on the bike?

Of course I ate on the bike. I went through a bunch of clif bars,
some sandwiches, juice, water, etc. I can do all that one handed just
fine. Heck I used to reach into my trunk bag side pocket and pull
stuff out with one hand on the bars.

Quoted message said:

Didn't want to sit up once and arch your back? Gnarly.

No actually. My back was actually one of the body parts that gave
me zero trouble or discomfort.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Go cut down the carcass of the Duke of Longmot. Cut through the
intestines that keep him hanging from the keep, then fling the
corpse into the moat. ... The man doesn't deserve another night
of royal hospitality." -- David Farland, _The Runelords_

Badger_South wrote:
|| On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:50:19 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||||| I picked 90" to 2 hours as the point at which some ppl start
||||| eating
||||| and drinking during the ride. You say 3 hours, I don't disagree.
|||
||| Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to
||| stretch or eat or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so
||| there's no need to do other things while riding. I don't need the
||| hassle of getting hurt needlessly. Income to protect,
||| responsibilities, etc. YMMV.
||
|| Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't expect to fall off the
|| bike at speed, but I still ride and I go down hills and reach 35mph.
|| That's gotta
|| be more dangerous than riding no hands to get something out of your
|| jersey back pocket, such as a dispo. camera.

Well, I don't expect to fall at speed either....but it seems when you ride
no-handed, you increase your changes of falling as you're usually shifting
around and stuff.

||
||| BTW, I usually get off the bike at about 20 miles, so your 1.5
||| hours is about right for me
||
|| My experience may be different, b/c I don't equate riding with no
|| hands as dangerous at all, given you don't pick the wrong time or
|| part of the road
|| to do it sparingly. I'm not advocating riding that way to impress
|| the babes or anything.

🙂

||
|| It isnt' even so much that, as it's irritating to -not- be able to
|| ride no hands, even coasting, and take off your sunglasses and put
|| on your spares.

||
|| So you telling me you're just over-cautious, or that never having
|| done that you have none of the skills. You'll never get on a
|| unicycle, then? Just askin', not trying to be a butt.

Actually, I used to do it all the time when I was a kid...but for some
reason that skill has not returned. Not that I've been trying hard to
develop it, though.

||
|| I've never even come close to getting hurt or even a hint of it, and
|| I used to do it a lot with my paper route. I'd fold the papers while
|| riding and throw them up on the porch.

Same here.

||
|| As I said, it's part of bike handling, imo. Sure, elect not to do it
|| much, but don't totally avoid having the skill set.
||
|| -B
|| Several of my cycling books talk about it, and one mentions it's
|| necessary skill, but not sure of their context. I'll look it up if
|| you like.

Naw...just curious.....so how do you work up that skill -- without getting
killed? 🙂

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:12:02 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Several of my cycling books talk about it, and one mentions it's
|| necessary skill, but not sure of their context. I'll look it up if
|| you like.

Naw...just curious.....so how do you work up that skill -- without getting
killed? 🙂

60% of it is the bike. Actually I was reading a web-based biking forum, I
think, and one guy was talking about how amazingly well his new bike was
'tracking'. Then talked about holding it by the back of the saddle and just
easing it along, and it rode dead level straight on the carpet of the bike
store, and without even trying to 'balance' it.

When I got on my brother's bike, I rode immediately without hands, but
could tell the skill had degraded too. On mine there seems to be some
threshold 'value' that's not giving me the right kinesiological cues to let
go and feel safe. In addition, since mine has the top tube that slopes, you
can't grasp it betwen the knees, which helps you stready it until the sense
of balance returns.

I was thinking of having a short piece of strapping around one H/B, so I
could completely sit up, but still lightly restrain them from flopping to
the left.

Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable pic to
see the top tube geometry.

-B

Badger South (who?) said:

I finally found the root cause of my problem with the bike not
tracking properly. Trek hybrid, no shocks, tires are 700x35c just a
touch of crosshatching treat, almost looks bald.

Tread pattern does not make riding no-hands easier. This has nothing
to do with tracking. In fact, knobs on some MTB tires make no-hands
riding difficult on an otherwise stable bicycle.

Quoted message said:

The third lbs guy to look at it spun the tire and said 'you have a
shimmy in the tire. The tire may have been put on incorrectly and
the bead of the tire might not have been in the rim straight'.

Tires don't have shimmies, frames do. If your tire has a bulge and
has so many miles on it that it is bald, then you probably have a tire
casing rupture, a larger cord failure. These can blow out.

Quoted message said:

It's a small and hardly noticeable section with the tire is off true
for about 8 inches, and it's definitely the rubber tire portion, but
you have to spin it a time or two if you're not used to looking at
tires.

Quoted message said:

He said he spotted it when spinning my front wheel and checking the
brakes. This guy was really nice, b/c he gave me a quick tune up
while putting on my SPDs. If he'd looked like Halle Berry,
I'da...well, you know. ;-D

I can't tell from here what sort of terms he used to describe the
fault but it doesn't sound right in your re-telling of it.

Quoted message said:

I noticed the lack of tracking when holding the back of the saddle
and trying to roll the bike forwards. Despite my trying time after
time to do this and keep the tiny bit of correction going with
tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not ride
it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands when
you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, IMO. If this doesn't fix
it, maybe the headset needs examined or something.

From what you say, it sounds more like too tight a head bearing. Does
the front wheel swing freely from side-to-side when the bicycle is
lifted and held just forward of the tilt angle at which it responds to
rearward tilt? That is, just ahead of the neutral tilt? If that
point is ill defined, you already have the answer. It's too tight.

Quoted message said:

So I'll have 'em look at this, and probably change the tire.

Get to the point where you can do this yourself. This is simple
stuff. It's when it requires new parts or special tools that you
should go to the LBS.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Badger South (who?) said:

I was thinking of having a short piece of strapping around one H/B,
so I could completely sit up, but still lightly restrain them from
flopping to the left.

Hold it, you didn't say that before. I took it that the response was
unstable. If it prefers to veer to the left then the fork ends are
most likely off center to the right. It is either the fork or the
frame with a leaning headtube that causes the same effect.

Quoted message said:

Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable
pic to see the top tube geometry.

You can't see anything from the shape or angle of a top tube,
especially with one that normally slopes down forward or rearward.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I can't tell from here what sort of terms he used to describe the
fault but it doesn't sound right in your re-telling of it.

It's not a bulge. If you look at the line of contact around the center apex
of the tire, in a short section this veers to the left, (you are facing the
bike viewing edge on), then returns to center. The rest of the contact line
is centered perfectly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I noticed the lack of tracking when holding the back of the saddle
and trying to roll the bike forwards. Despite my trying time after
time to do this and keep the tiny bit of correction going with
tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not ride
it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands when
you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, IMO. If this doesn't fix
it, maybe the headset needs examined or something.

From what you say, it sounds more like too tight a head bearing. Does
the front wheel swing freely from side-to-side when the bicycle is
lifted and held just forward of the tilt angle at which it responds to
rearward tilt? That is, just ahead of the neutral tilt? If that
point is ill defined, you already have the answer. It's too tight.

It flops to the left.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I'll have 'em look at this, and probably change the tire.

Get to the point where you can do this yourself. This is simple
stuff. It's when it requires new parts or special tools that you
should go to the LBS.

Hip injury.

-B
Thx.

Badger_South wrote:
|| On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:12:02 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| Several of my cycling books talk about it, and one mentions it's
||||| necessary skill, but not sure of their context. I'll look it up if
||||| you like.
|||
||| Naw...just curious.....so how do you work up that skill -- without
||| getting killed? 🙂
||
|| 60% of it is the bike. Actually I was reading a web-based biking
|| forum, I think, and one guy was talking about how amazingly well his
|| new bike was 'tracking'. Then talked about holding it by the back of
|| the saddle and just easing it along, and it rode dead level straight
|| on the carpet of the bike store, and without even trying to
|| 'balance' it.
||
|| When I got on my brother's bike, I rode immediately without hands,
|| but could tell the skill had degraded too. On mine there seems to be
|| some threshold 'value' that's not giving me the right kinesiological
|| cues to let go and feel safe. In addition, since mine has the top
|| tube that slopes, you can't grasp it betwen the knees, which helps
|| you stready it until the sense of balance returns.
||
|| I was thinking of having a short piece of strapping around one H/B,
|| so I could completely sit up, but still lightly restrain them from
|| flopping to the left.
||
|| Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable
|| pic to see the top tube geometry.

Specialized Sequoia Expert, 2003. Sloping top tube.

http://tinyurl.com/65zo5

Quoted message said:

Badger South (who?) said:

I was thinking of having a short piece of strapping around one H/B,
so I could completely sit up, but still lightly restrain them from
flopping to the left.

Hold it, you didn't say that before. I took it that the response was
unstable. If it prefers to veer to the left then the fork ends are
most likely off center to the right. It is either the fork or the
frame with a leaning headtube that causes the same effect.

Quoted message said:

Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable
pic to see the top tube geometry.

You can't see anything from the shape or angle of a top tube,
especially with one that normally slopes down forward or rearward.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

If I roll the bike in the house holding the back of the seat, I can't push
it more than a couple inches before it tries to completely flop to one
side, be it right or left. Even with gentle steering by leaning I can
'correct' for a few inches and it flops to the other side. I tried for
quite a while to get it to track straight, and it would not.

So this seems to point to it being the looseness or tightness of the head
tube. One person told me it may be the head tube is too loose, and that
tightening it would prevent such easy flop to the side.

On the angle of the top tube, I was wonderng how important it was to be
able to lightly trap the top tube between the thighs when first starting to
ride no hands. The slope from front to seat post was such that I couldn't
touch it with my knees, side of the leg, nothing. A top tube that's level
from h/b to seat tube, I can grasp lightly between the thighs, and this
helps. Later, iirc, you don't need this.

-B

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:26:40 -0500, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Badger_South wrote:
|| On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:12:02 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|| <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||
|| Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable
|| pic to see the top tube geometry.

Specialized Sequoia Expert, 2003. Sloping top tube.

http://tinyurl.com/65zo5

Nice.

When you gently push the bike forward by holding under the back edge of the
seat, palm up, does it track (roll forward) straight without too much
effort? If it does, I believe that's a good sign. If it doesn't, gee it may
be user error.

My brother's bike when pushed forwards like this goes straight (he's got
the same model, but two grades lower), and as you walk faster, it continues
to do this. Mine a few inches, feet at the most, the h/b flop to one side
or the other. Even if you gently angle or rock the bike ever so slightly to
the opposing side to gentle it into staying straight, as soon as you do
this it flops completely to -that- side. Don't even try to walk briskly
with it. Given that I can walk his and not mine makes me think it's not me.
;-)

-B

Badger South who? said:

Quoted message said:

I can't tell from here what sort of terms he used to describe the
fault but it doesn't sound right in your re-telling of it.

Quoted message said:

It's not a bulge. If you look at the line of contact around the
center apex of the tire, in a short section this veers to the left,
(you are facing the bike viewing edge on), then returns to
center. The rest of the contact line is centered perfectly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I noticed the lack of tracking when holding the back of the saddle
and trying to roll the bike forwards. Despite my trying time after
time to do this and keep the tiny bit of correction going with
tilting it, this bike will -not- track straight; thus I can not
ride it without hands, and you -need- to be able to ride no hands
when you're going over 90 minutes to two hours, IMO. If this
doesn't fix it, maybe the headset needs examined or something.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what you say, it sounds more like too tight a head bearing.
Does the front wheel swing freely from side-to-side when the
bicycle is lifted and held just forward of the tilt angle at which
it responds to rearward tilt? That is, just ahead of the neutral
tilt? If that point is ill defined, you already have the answer.
It's too tight.

Quoted message said:

It flops to the left.

Then you aren't performing the test as described. Tilt the bicycle
forward until the wheel does NOT flop to one side anymore and then
lean the frame gently from side to side and see if the steering
follows smoothly. This is the simpler in situ test that can also be
made by removing the front wheel and bars to see how freely the fork
rotates in the head bearing using thumb and forefinger for rotation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I'll have 'em look at this, and probably change the tire.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get to the point where you can do this yourself. This is simple
stuff. It's when it requires new parts or special tools that you
should go to the LBS.

Quoted message said:

Hip injury.

The LBS has no influence there. I hope you went elsewhere for that.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Badger South (who?) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was thinking of having a short piece of strapping around one
H/B, so I could completely sit up, but still lightly restrain them
from flopping to the left.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hold it, you didn't say that before. I took it that the response
was unstable. If it prefers to veer to the left then the fork ends
are most likely off center to the right. It is either the fork or
the frame with a leaning headtube that causes the same effect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable
pic to see the top tube geometry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can't see anything from the shape or angle of a top tube,
especially with one that normally slopes down forward or rearward.

Quoted message said:

If I roll the bike in the house holding the back of the seat, I
can't push it more than a couple inches before it tries to
completely flop to one side, be it right or left. Even with gentle
steering by leaning I can 'correct' for a few inches and it flops to
the other side. I tried for quite a while to get it to track
straight, and it would not.

If you do this at less than walking speed, I would expect any bicycle
to do that. How does it compare with other people's bicycles? Have
you ever walked with a bicycle held by the saddle only in this manner.
It takes a bit of manual dexterity. From what you say here,
understanding the circumstances of your bicycle instability is not
easy and for this reason, I suspect you are not adept at this sort of
thing. Can you walk with your hip repair and test the straight ahead
stability of the hand guided bicycle?

On the other hand, if you could precisely describe the symptoms, you
would probably not ask, because the solution would be contained in
your description.

Quoted message said:

So this seems to point to it being the looseness or tightness of the
head tube. One person told me it may be the head tube is too loose,
and that tightening it would prevent such easy flop to the side.

Not at all. The test must be made, but walking a bicycle with hand on
the saddle does not a good test make other than that the head bearings
are not too tight. That the bicycle has a bias only comes out when
riding no-hands (without wind) down the road. Road crown does not
affect this.

Quoted message said:

On the angle of the top tube, I was wondering how important it was
to be able to lightly trap the top tube between the thighs when
first starting to ride no hands. The slope from front to seat post
was such that I couldn't touch it with my knees, side of the leg,
nothing. A top tube that's level from h/b to seat tube, I can grasp
lightly between the thighs, and this helps. Later, iirc, you don't
need this.

That is not necessary but it is useful when coasting downhill no-hands
because most bicycles for tall people tend to shimmy and laying the
leg against the top tube is the way it is most easily controlled.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]