Track work

jen said:

Your thoughts?

My primary thought is that the desire to predict, and engage one's
running buddies in predicting, one's 5k performance based on one's
training is so deep and universal that it's actually become something
of a running gag on another board I read. :-)

I wouldn't hazard a guess. Too many variables coupled with a near-
total lack of hard data to go on other than recent daily pace.

But I will wish you luck and a good race. From having raced
considerably faster than your daily training pace in the past, I'm
guessing you have a pretty reasonable feel for the effort you can
sustain. Trust that internal effort-meter assuming it's served you
well in the past. And in the last mile, maybe start to trust it a
little less; begin to suspect it's holding out on you and see if you
can't prove it was a little overcautious. And use your arms - someone
once said something like "run the last third of the race with your
arms" and I find it true enough, your tired legs will tend to follow
your insistently pumping arms.

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TTRRi.2251$HU1.742@trndny07...

Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Care to elaborate - what's good or bad for you?

Specifically no, generally, refined foods, particularly refined
carbohydrates, seem to produce an inflammatory state if eaten to
excess. I've browsed many books on diet/health, though never follow
any of the prescribed programs fully. Inflammation seems to have many
causes in modern life. Refined foods and how the body handles them
seems to be a common theme in many of those books, as is the theme
that so-called healthy fats are very good for you, etc.

Tony, you're going to help me with this position. I have been following
nutrition for a lot of years and I have never heard of the relationship
with inflammation and refined carbs. We all know that simple and most
refined carbs are poor nutrition in general and for diabetics or those
susceptible to high glycemic foods definitely a poor choice. OTOH I
don't relate GI and insulin with inflammation but if you have a book or
web page I'd like read about it.

And we both know that the aid stations in a ultra are loaded with
simple/unrefined carbs.

Quoted message said:

When I eat a diet balanced in protein/fats/carbs, of the right kinds,
with refined carbs strictly limited to post-exercise periods, I tend
to feel healthy and balanced and more supple.

Is it really physical or just knowing proper eating and it makes you
feel better mentally? 😉

Quoted message said:

OTOH, when I get busy sometimes and forget what I eat, I tend to be
stiff, the joints often feel sore, and I don't recover as well from
exercise; that is, my body gets into a sustained state of
inflammation. What exact balance of foods will work for any one person
is an experiment. Even then, as with many areas of life, knowing and
doing are very different things, and experimenting takes time and
discipline.

Since we are all experiments of one and you find negative effects with
improper balance, then do what works for you. I'm simply looking for a
scientific connection plus I have never had the same experience. Maybe
the Heineken really is my salvation, after all it is the first thing
down the pipe after a race and training run. And you thought I was just
nuts. 🙂

-Doug

"Kaz Kylheku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tfactor said:

Speedwork is not consistent with your goal. The benefit of speedwork,
assuming you're prepared for it, is speed, which is not what you're
looking for.

Aside from speed, the benefit of speedwork is that, perhaps depending
on your personality, it adds a spark to your running, without which
your training will head into blah territory.

Speedwork improves your coordination and strength, which can act to
reduce injuries throughout your training base.

As long as the assumption above is true, "you are prepared." This means
you have a sufficient base to withstand the rigors of speed. If you're
not, it is a good way to get injured in a hurry. Very often the new
runner is in a hurry to get faster and pushes the speed button way too
fast. You will get naturally faster from getting a solid base and adding
some gentle hills for strength. Speed is the last variable to play with.

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

Tony, you're going to help me with this position. I have been following
nutrition for a lot of years and I have never heard of the relationship
with inflammation and refined carbs. We all know that simple and most
refined carbs are poor nutrition in general and for diabetics or those
susceptible to high glycemic foods definitely a poor choice. OTOH I
don't relate GI and insulin with inflammation but if you have a book or
web page I'd like read about it.

Doug, just google "inflammation" and "omega-3" and you should get a
lot of hits on this. I had a link awhile back that was particularly
good.... I'll see if I can find it. Oprah has sort of popularized this
whole concept, promoting Dr Oz, who wrote a book that goes into detail
about this topic. But he's certainly not the only one harping about it
today.

The issue is that the body needs a balance of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty
acids, the balance is debatable (i've seen 1:1 and 2:1 and 3:1), but
most nutritional scientists today agree that our traditional american
diet has skewed this ratio so that we get way too many omega-6's and
not enough omega-3's. This is largely due to corn and wheat, which are
subsidized by our government meaning we have such a surplus they are
cheap to use for all sorts of processed and fast foods. Corn is in
everything - in the form of high fructose corn syrup.

When you get too many omega-6's and not enough omega-3's, inflammation
processes start occurring in the body. This can result in high blood
pressure and a bunch of other modern-day scourges. Omega-3's help
reduce this inflammation. Sources of omega-3's include: flax seed,
walnuts, olive oil, fatty fishes.

jen

Doug Freese said:

As long as the assumption above is true, "you are prepared." This means
you have a sufficient base to withstand the rigors of speed. If you're
not, it is a good way to get injured in a hurry. Very often the new
runner is in a hurry to get faster and pushes the speed button way too
fast. You will get naturally faster from getting a solid base and adding
some gentle hills for strength. Speed is the last variable to play with.

I feel like I do have a good solid base though. I've been running for
a whole year, and much of that has been on hills. Okay so it's only
10-12 miles a week, but since i'm very slow, that equals out to a lot
of time-on-feet. For example, this week it's working out to three runs
of 45 minutes each.

I know in the past I've gotten faster simply by running longer, but it
seems that increasing my mileage may be causing the arthritis to
flare. I could be wrong about that - it could just be a total
coincidence instead of a pattern. But if I can't run longer, then that
leaves trying to run faster, doesn't it?

jen

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:08:51 -0400, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tony, you're going to help me with this position.

The position I had in mind was bent over...
-Doug

"shinypenny" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Thanks Tony. I eat a very clean diet, and have for a long time, since
my 20s. Very little refined carbs and processed foods. I eat at least
9 veggies/fruit per day, fats about 30% but 90% of that is omega 3's -
fatty fishes 4-5xs per week, flax seed every day, walnuts 4-5x's a
day, etc... I do everything mentioned in that link (including play!)
except I don't take herbs and supplements.

Quoted message said:

I'm nearly vegetarian (but B12 isn't an issue either, because my
doctor already tested me for that - he tested me for all the major
vitamin deficiencies, the ones that can cause joint pain - and i came
out "stellar" on every last one of them

Just to be a contrarian, your diet is unusual in it's variety and
composition -- is it possible that in your zeal to get lots of veggies that
you may be sensitive to one or more of them? Plants have tons of antigens
(or potentially allergy inducing chemicals, if that's the wrong word).

In addition, allergies to flesh are very rare (similar to rice in this
regard). If your diet is significantly different to the one we evolved
with, that may be something to consider. Modern agricultural products are
often quite different from their native forebears, too (consider durham
wheat as opposed to more primitive, less allergy inducing varieties).

-- Dan

Kaz Kylheku said:

tfactor said:

Speedwork is not consistent with your goal. The benefit of speedwork,
assuming you're prepared for it, is speed, which is not what you're
looking for.

Aside from speed, the benefit of speedwork is that, perhaps depending
on your personality, it adds a spark to your running, without which
your training will head into blah territory.

Speedwork improves your coordination and strength, which can act to
reduce injuries throughout your training base.

Building on what your saying here. I notice something as a result of
speedwork that ends up benefiting me in other sports - specifically
basketball. My jumping really improves. I'll bet I gain 1-2 inches
about 2-3 weeks after doing my first track workout each late winter.
I'm guessing that I am building muscle that I lost during the winter.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TTRRi.2251$HU1.742@trndny07...

Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Care to elaborate - what's good or bad for you?

Specifically no, generally, refined foods, particularly refined
carbohydrates, seem to produce an inflammatory state if eaten to excess.
I've browsed many books on diet/health, though never follow any of the
prescribed programs fully. Inflammation seems to have many causes in
modern life. Refined foods and how the body handles them seems to be a
common theme in many of those books, as is the theme that so-called
healthy fats are very good for you, etc.

Tony, you're going to help me with this position. I have been following
nutrition for a lot of years and I have never heard of the relationship
with inflammation and refined carbs. We all know that simple and most
refined carbs are poor nutrition in general and for diabetics or those
susceptible to high glycemic foods definitely a poor choice. OTOH I don't
relate GI and insulin with inflammation but if you have a book or web page
I'd like read about it.

If it were only that simple. I'm sure you'd agree that biology is one of the
most complex topics mankind has ever studied. Patterns with multiple causes
are very hard to prove. Comparisons between countries and dietary tendencies
between countries may be the most useful in some ways, though population
specific genetics and other causes for diseases and condtions besides diet
must be taken into account. Even this comparison technique is changing now
as western-style diets are available worldwide.

Even inflammation as a condition and possible precursor to many diseases is
a fairly new concept, but it's this kind of wholistic view that, in my view,
has the most potential to figure out why affluent societies have much higher
percentages of certain types of diseases, for example. As I'm sure you know,
it's the wholistic view of health that is missing in most doctor's offices,
and in the modern medical system.

Quoted message said:

And we both know that the aid stations in a ultra are loaded with
simple/unrefined carbs.

Yes, and that's fine with me. During and after exercise is when the body can
suck them right up and put them to best use. You want fast absorption at
such times.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I eat a diet balanced in protein/fats/carbs, of the right kinds,
with refined carbs strictly limited to post-exercise periods, I tend to
feel healthy and balanced and more supple.

Is it really physical or just knowing proper eating and it makes you feel
better mentally? 😉

Yes, and yes. I can notice a physical difference, and I also feel better
about it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH, when I get busy sometimes and forget what I eat, I tend to be
stiff, the joints often feel sore, and I don't recover as well from
exercise; that is, my body gets into a sustained state of inflammation.
What exact balance of foods will work for any one person is an
experiment. Even then, as with many areas of life, knowing and doing are
very different things, and experimenting takes time and discipline.

Since we are all experiments of one and you find negative effects with
improper balance, then do what works for you. I'm simply looking for a
scientific connection plus I have never had the same experience. Maybe
the Heineken really is my salvation, after all it is the first thing down
the pipe after a race and training run. And you thought I was just nuts.
🙂

-Doug

Experiments of one, I agree. As far as the science goes, as you know,
nutrition science is all over the place. OTOH, there seems to be broad
general agreement that refined foods aren't natural to the human diet, and
that high-glycemic foods can lead to yo-yos in blood sugar levels and
problems. The extent of the latter is under debate. That it can be a
contributing cause of eventual obesity, pre-diabetic syndrome and perhaps
even type II diabetes is also under debate.

Inflammation is also a buzz word that means different things in different
contexts, and, like the other conditions just mentioned, has many causes.
But, in my reading of these matters, and in my personal experience, the
refined and high glycemic foods can cause direct symptoms that I experience
whenever I 'forget' to eat right.

A few of the books I've browsed on the topic -- not to include Atkins books
I read years ago, which were followed by south-beach and others, moving from
low-carb to right-carb thinking, most of which I think also pointed to
inflammation as an outcome of eating the wrong foods, which include
refined/high glycemic foods -- are (and they of course don't agree entirely
and have different points of view on some matters):

The Anti-Inflammation Zone, Dr. Barry Sears
Stop Inflammation Now, Richard M. Flemming, M.D.
Inflammation Nation, Floyd H. Chilton, Ph.D.

-Tony

Charlie Pendejo said:

jen said:

Your thoughts?

My primary thought is that the desire to predict, and engage one's
running buddies in predicting, one's 5k performance based on one's
training is so deep and universal that it's actually become something
of a running gag on another board I read. :-)

I wouldn't hazard a guess. Too many variables coupled with a near-
total lack of hard data to go on other than recent daily pace.

But I will wish you luck and a good race. From having raced
considerably faster than your daily training pace in the past, I'm
guessing you have a pretty reasonable feel for the effort you can
sustain. Trust that internal effort-meter assuming it's served you
well in the past. And in the last mile, maybe start to trust it a
little less; begin to suspect it's holding out on you and see if you
can't prove it was a little overcautious. And use your arms - someone
once said something like "run the last third of the race with your
arms" and I find it true enough, your tired legs will tend to follow
your insistently pumping arms.

Ooh... the arm tip is a good one. I'd forgotten about the arms!

Right now I can't even imagine running at the effort I ran those past
two 5k's. Part of that is that I suspect I've lost some strength in my
legs lately. But, the truth is, I don't particularly like to run 5k's.
It's not really my definition of fun. Even if I tell myself I'm just
going to run easy, I always end up pushing it to near-puking level.

But, I do want to test myself on this anniversary, and the 5K is in my
neighborhood so I'd feel like a total slackard if I didn't run it.

Actually, this will end up being my speedwork, I suppose!

jen

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:fc5Si.98$na2.51@trndny08...

Quoted message said:

Even inflammation as a condition and possible precursor to many
diseases is a fairly new concept, but it's this kind of wholistic view
that, in my view, has the most potential to figure out why affluent
societies have much higher percentages of certain types of diseases,
for example. As I'm sure you know, it's the wholistic view of health
that is missing in most doctor's offices, and in the modern medical
system.

I'm not holstic or wholistic but I am a pragmatist and the science is
just not there, at least yet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I eat a diet balanced in protein/fats/carbs, of the right
kinds, with refined carbs strictly limited to post-exercise periods,
I tend to feel healthy and balanced and more supple.

Is it really physical or just knowing proper eating and it makes you
feel better mentally? 😉

Yes, and yes. I can notice a physical difference, and I also feel
better about it.

Ok.

Quoted message said:

Experiments of one, I agree. As far as the science goes, as you know,
nutrition science is all over the place. OTOH, there seems to be broad
general agreement that refined foods aren't natural to the human diet,

I agree to a point.

Quoted message said:

and that high-glycemic foods can lead to yo-yos in blood sugar levels
and problems. The extent of the latter is under debate.

Atkins and a little of Sears took great liberties, without real science,
to claim we all ultra sensitive GI machines. When tests were not run by
Atkins and the low other low carb folks, It did not pan out. The numbers
were in fact not there. On a sliding scale simple carbs(candy, etc) are
worst and usless(unless in an ultra where they are instantly need and
absorbed), refined are not bad but better than simple and but worse than
complex.

Quoted message said:

That it can be a contributing cause of eventual obesity, pre-diabetic
syndrome and perhaps even type II diabetes is also under debate.

Obesity and Type II are from too much weight. Most of weight comes from
disproportionate eating, too much fat and simple carbs and too little
exercise.

Quoted message said:

Inflammation is also a buzz word that means different things in
different contexts, and, like the other conditions just mentioned, has
many causes. But, in my reading of these matters, and in my personal
experience, the refined and high glycemic foods can cause direct
symptoms that I experience whenever I 'forget' to eat right.

The you are one of those that are sensitive to high GI foods.

Quoted message said:

A few of the books I've browsed on the topic -- not to include Atkins
books I read years ago, which were followed by south-beach and others,
moving from low-carb to right-carb thinking, most of which I think
also pointed to inflammation as an outcome of eating the wrong foods,
which include refined/high glycemic foods -- are (and they of course
don't agree entirely and have different points of view on some
matters):

To most nutritionists right-carbs are complex not refined. I think the
leading edge nutritionists feel the Harvard folks(much like Consumer
Reports and have allegience to no one) are on the money. The government
pyramid is politically driven by lobbyists not health. Take a look at
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/pyramids.html specifically
the pyramid. Exercise is at the bottom along with fats(Omega 3 as Jen
was covering), whole grains and fruits, etc.

From Flemming..

" The author, a nuclear cardiologist and founder of the Fleming Heart
and Health Institute in Omaha, Neb., builds on his earlier work (How to
Bypass Your Bypass: What Your Doctor Doesn't Tell You About Cholesterol
and Your Diet) to identify in this reader-friendly guide 12 risk factors
for heart disease. According to Fleming, these factors-which include
high blood cholesterol level (over 150), excess weight, elevated
homocysteine (resulting from eating too much animal protein) and
oxidants in the blood stream-trigger an inflammatory reaction that
causes heart disease and may also be responsible for diabetes, arthritis
and other serious conditions. Dismissing bypass surgery and angioplasty
as short-term solutions, Fleming claims that his suggested diet,
combined with regular exercise such as daily walking, will reverse heart
disease without medication or surgery."

He talks about an inflammatory reaction without any definition. I'm
still not sure what he claims is infammed. I think we asre in agreement
with proper eating, It's just the use or abuse of the term inflammation
that bothers me.

-doug