TR: Ben Nevis and foreigners

I don't really know the answer to this Rob, more poles and
cairns? There's enough paraphenalia marring Ben Nevis
already. I don't want to see "policing" of any sort either,
nor when I think about it insurance or payment of any sort.
If numpties want to go up both inexperienced *and*
unprepared, let them. I think we've heard the theory on here
before, was it "Darwinism". When I went up I saw exactly the
same, an elderly Irish gent strolling up wearing a suit,
normal dress shoes and carrying a Tescos bag with some
sarnies and a couple of cans of beer. He did look the type
that wouldn't blink at whatever was flung at him though, and
I'm sure he made it. We went round to the CMD Arete which
was then cancelled due to weather, returned and went up the
tourist path. I'd be interested to know the MRT view on
this, but apart from education, I don't think you can stop
anyone wanting to go up.

KRO

Rob Milne said:

Makes me think that those poles and a few more cairns are
a good idea. What do others think of this??

As history has demonstrated, poles will quite possibly be
removed, whatever the wrongs, rights and maybes may be. If
they won't be reliable, I don't think they should be relied
on. And as for cairns, think of the pre-summit plateau area
on Schiehallion if you want a very simple good reason why
these are really a non-starter (for those not familiar there
are cairns in large numbers in all directions: once people
start building them others will follow, just for fun).

I think the place to try and root out the problem cases is
back at the bottom of the path with some notices pointing
out the pitfalls available (including a point that no effort
has been made to make the way easy), and after that on
people's heads be it. But if you start trying to add aids at
the top then you immediately acquire a responsibility to
maintain them etc. etc.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Rob Milne" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
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Quoted message said:

Makes me think that those poles and a few more cairns are
a good idea. What do others think of this?? Rob

I'm from Holland and therefore a foreigner. I know what
cairns are but I've met several English men who didn't
even know what these 'pile of rocks' ment. So why build
some extra ?

Theo

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Peter

Clinch) said:

. But if you start trying to add aids at the top then you
immediately acquire a responsibility to maintain them
etc. etc.

I agree. It is clear that the main local (perhaps UK-wide)
community doesn't want cairns and poles. There is the stub
of a pole at the edge of the plateau. I checked and could
see how it was hacksawed in place. I spoke with one of the
mountain rescue guys and he said they had put them there to
help with safety, but now that is clear so many people are
against them, they won't do anything more.

as KRO says, perhaps Darwinism is the right approach ...

It still seems that a lot of plonkers are going to go up
there when they shouldn't no matter what we do and one or
two cairns could save some lives. (I remember many happy
occasions when we hit the cairn at the top of Fiacall ridge
in a raging storm ...)

Rob

Rob Milne said:

It still seems that a lot of plonkers are going to go up
there when they shouldn't no matter what we do and one or
two cairns could save some lives. (I remember many happy
occasions when we hit the cairn at the top of Fiacall
ridge in a raging storm ...)

Again I refer you to a genuinely popular touroid hill,
Schiehallion, rather than the Fiacall ridge, for what to
expect of cairns in such circumstances. I've been very glad
of cairns in my time, but most of them I find are pointless
piles of rocks, and the proportion of PPoR gets greater the
more popular the hill. Build some if you like, but they
can't be relied on not to (a) disappear or (b) propagate to
places other than a good way to go to get down. And like
poles, if you can't rely on them...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"having been caught on the top of scafell in a virtual
whiteout i was happy to see cairns the rebelmc

"Rob Milne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Did The Ben on friday with a much less experienced friend.
I reckon that is the start of my 27th round of the Munros.
We had no real problems. Got the last parking place at the
youth hostel, warm until 800m. Then into the clag. Snow
level was about 1000m and the wide section along the
plateau was all snow. I guess there is still 6 feet of
snow on top. It was all slushy and in poor visibility, but
not a real problem walking. Good thing the footprints were
there, since otherwise the correct path will be hard to
find. Hence a few comments.

It was amazed at how may foreign tourists were trying to
do the Ben. Most had trainers, blue jeans and supplies in
a plastic bag. Many turned back at the snow line, but
several carried on to the top. No map or compass, no
goretex. Just out to tick the highest point in Britain
while on holiday. If the wind had picked up and it has
snowed, the path would have been invisible and someone
could have gotten well lost and frozen! We worry about
regular hill walkers (and Trail readers) navigating up
there. but these folks are a whole class of their own. The
point is there will try to ascend the Ben regardless of
conditions. Makes me think that those poles and a few more
cairns are a good idea. What do others think of this??

I find this an extremely difficult question. It's hard to
argue against building navigational aids around the summit
of the Ben hen you describe scenes like that. I worry
about the precedents it would set, such as.. Would someone
then want a line of poles indicating a safe way across the
Cairn Gorm plateau? or more worrying If poles were erected
and publicised, would there then be some liability on the
landowner (John Muir Trust) is there was an accident
blamed on the poles having been defaced, removed or just
buried in snow?

There's a feature in the coming issue of Scottish
Mountaineer discussing this question, includes a lovely
aeriel photo of the summit.

--
Duncan Gray

homepage - www.duncolm.co.uk also www.mountaineering-
scotland.org.uk The Mountaineering Council of Scotland

Quoted message said:

Makes me think that those poles and a few more cairns are a
good idea. What do others think of this??

Nooooooooooooo!

May as well put two parallel strips of metal up the whole
route and generate some income... Too many cairns as it is,
and you never ever trust them!

Education*3 is the only answer I am afraid.

Richard Webb

therebel said:

"having been caught on the top of scafell in a virtual
whiteout i was happy to see cairns the rebelmc

The rest of us were happy to see our compass needles.. You
can rely on that.

Do you know that climbs and climbers decent routes are
cairned. Some descent routes in climbing areas are horrific,
and no place for the typical Scafell Pike Touroid or me for
that matter. Cairns can get you in big trouble.

Then there are the prat cairns built all over the shop by
bored morons, they lead nowhere - see Schiehallion above.

Richard Webb

therebel said:

"having been caught on the top of scafell in a virtual
whiteout i was happy to see cairns the rebelmc

You were very lucky to have followed the right ones. Next
time you go in good visibility, have a look at the edge of
the cliff and count the cairns there...