Tour team alliances

"Charlie C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There has been a lot of talk this year about teams ganging up on

Lance

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(especially in the Mountains) in order to make him suffer and

possibly deny

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him this year's tour. Jan Ullrich has said that he doesn't plan on

winning

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this year and Lance and he have always seemed to have a pretty good, professional relationship.

Do you think that if it appears that Jan doesn't have a chance at

the podium

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he might try to help Lance win the tour?

Of course, if Jan is riding well (and if the Prologue is any

indication he

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will do just fine) clearly Jan will ride for himself (as he

should!). But,

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if some of the teams gang up against Lance, do you think any other

teams

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will try to help Lance (once again, assuming they have no one in

contention

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for GC)?

If you can't already tell, I'm firmly in the "Lance Camp" but you

just can't

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help but root for Jan after what he did in the Prologue today.

Interesting stuff Charlie. Of course theses rumours will get worse as the mountain stages loom.
One thing I'm sure of if this "gang up" does occur though is that Lance will get help from outside
his team anyway. I hope Lance wins but I'd prefer some drama along the way,purely in sporting
terms of course.
--
ATB-DaveG

Look for teams of the same nationality to make alliances first. For instance, the Spanish teams (Ibanesto.com, Kelme-Costa Blanca, Once-Eroski, Euskaltel-Euskadi) might pull something in the mountains.

If you watch older Tour footage of the champions of the past struggling on their worst days in the mountains (Fignon, Delgado, Pantani), you can almost always spot riders of the same nationality (on rival teams) dropping back to help pace them.

Nationality bloodlines run deep.

"Charlie C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There has been a lot of talk this year about teams ganging up on Lance (especially in the
Mountains) in order to make him suffer and possibly deny him this year's tour. Jan Ullrich has
said that he doesn't plan on winning this year and Lance and he have always seemed to have a
pretty good, professional relationship.

Do you think that if it appears that Jan doesn't have a chance at the podium he might try to help
Lance win the tour?

Of course, if Jan is riding well (and if the Prologue is any indication he will do just fine)
clearly Jan will ride for himself (as he should!). But, if some of the teams gang up against
Lance, do you think any other teams will try to help Lance (once again, assuming they have no one
in contention for GC)?

In cycling as in many things people naturally do what's in their best interest. Riders only work for
each other if they can gain personally somehow.

This is why is not typical for teams or riders to form a coalition unless they can both benefit.

I suppose teams can "cut a deal", but I can't see say Euskatel sacrificing their GC spots to help
ONCE. It didn't happen in the past. The TdF is the big prize for both of these teams. Help at a
later time or in another race isn't enough incentive.

-Amit

$$ and future contracts...

All good points about riders riding for themselves. After the first or second week of the Tour,
however, you start to see the alliances based on prizes -- supporting the green jersey, supporting
the team award (this is a big deal for smaller teams without a GC contender) or just the panic
around getting a stage win for teams that are shut out the third week. "Charlie C."
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There has been a lot of talk this year about teams ganging up on Lance (especially in the
Mountains) in order to make him suffer and possibly

deny

Quoted message said:

him this year's tour. Jan Ullrich has said that he doesn't plan on

winning

Quoted message said:

this year and Lance and he have always seemed to have a pretty good, professional relationship.

Do you think that if it appears that Jan doesn't have a chance at the

podium

Quoted message said:

he might try to help Lance win the tour?

Of course, if Jan is riding well (and if the Prologue is any indication he will do just fine)
clearly Jan will ride for himself (as he should!).

But,

Quoted message said:

if some of the teams gang up against Lance, do you think any other teams will try to help Lance
(once again, assuming they have no one in

contention

Quoted message said:

for GC)?

If you can't already tell, I'm firmly in the "Lance Camp" but you just

can't

Quoted message said:

help but root for Jan after what he did in the Prologue today.

Charlie in Houston

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Time Cop
Look for teams of the same nationality to make alliances first. For instance, the Spanish teams (Ibanesto.com, Kelme-Costa Blanca, Once-Eroski, Euskaltel-Euskadi) might pull something in the mountains.

If you watch older Tour footage of the champions of the past struggling on their worst days in the mountains (Fignon, Delgado, Pantani), you can almost always spot riders of the same nationality (on rival teams) dropping back to help pace them.

Nationality bloodlines run deep.

Once has plenty of trouble riding for themselves...Beloki and Gonzalez didn;t do anything to try to capitalize on their position. I could imagine that Jan and Lance would go up a mountain together and Jan would get the win...Tyler might also not be able to resist.

Time Cop <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Look for teams of the same nationality to make alliances first. For instance, the Spanish teams
(Ibanesto.com, Kelme-Costa Blanca, Once-Eroski, Euskaltel-Euskadi) might pull something in the
mountains.

I doubt that. We've seen the first three Spanish teams you mention riding against each other BIG
TIME in the Tour recently. There were instances in recent Tours of one Spanish team riding down
breaks with another's rider in it, with Postal getting an easier ride as a consequence.

Quoted message said:

If you watch older Tour footage of the champions of the past struggling on their worst days in the
mountains (Fignon, Delgado, Pantani), you can almost always spot riders of the same nationality
(on rival teams) dropping back to help pace them.

You're saying that the fact that teams and riders the same nationality help champions in crisis is
in some way related to alliances made to gang up and win something? That's a big stretch.

JT

"Time Cop" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nationality bloodlines run deep.

Not in Spain.

Quoted message said:

Look for teams of the same nationality to make alliances first. For instance, the Spanish teams
(Ibanesto.com, Kelme-Costa Blanca, Once-Eroski, Euskaltel-Euskadi) might pull something in the
mountains.

Quoted message said:

Nationality bloodlines run deep.

This is crazy talk. This will never happen. The reason is that in spain the overall team ranking is
the most prestigious after the individual overall ranking. This is one of the reason why ONCE and
Beloki ride so defensive and hardly attacked Lance the last years (besides the fact that Lance's
suppremacy was gigantic). Trying to do so may be very risky and costs a lot of powers which can lead
to some teammates losing a serious amount of time which results in a worse team-ranking. The last
years the spanish teams really neutralize each other. When there's a break with one spanish team
missing (e.g. Once in the break and Kelme not), Kelme will lead the chase, which is ofcourse a good
thing for Lance and USPS. They use more powers in riding against each other than supporting one
leader with the whole team, no matter what the team-ranking may be. It's obvious that you cannot be
a threat to Lance if you use the team tactics like Manolo Saiz does in his ONCE team. OK, you may
end up with 4 riders in the top10 but that is nothing in comparison to one rider in the MJ in Paris.
Unfortunately in Spain they see it differently.

Much talk about teams teaming up against Lance, mainly about how it won't really happen. I thought
there were rules against it. Aren't there?

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

"Charlie C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There has been a lot of talk this year about teams ganging up on Lance (especially in the
Mountains) in order to make him suffer and possibly deny him this year's tour. Jan Ullrich has
said that he doesn't plan on winning this year and Lance and he have always seemed to have a
pretty good, professional relationship.

According to Zabel the alliance could go as follows:

Asked how this year's Tour might play out, with former leader Jan Ullrich on rival Team Bianchi,
Zabel acknowledged that an informal alliance could present itself on the road. If strength in
numbers is what will be necessary to defeat defending champion Lance Armstrong, Zabel can envision
cooperation between Telekom and Ullrich.

"In cycling that happens frequently when teams have similar intentions," he explained. "Maybe we
will form an alliance with Ullrich. If Armstrong is on the attack and Ullrich is chasing, we will
try to ride with him in the chase."