Torque wrenches



So "S o r n i" <[email protected]> says:

>> You're full of ****.
>
>Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
>

My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had
been building wheels for several years at that point
including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run of several
hundred for Kona and found that the gauge was telling me
what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any problems
winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught
that your breathing comes from your center and your center
and hands connect in an unbroken line of energy. I practiced
for hours a day for years to become aware of this and
compared to the minute adjustments required to get even a
passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat less
tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13
so playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were
always part of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not
using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't
ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick
up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen very often. ok?

jeffb
 
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 19:50:07 GMT, jeffbonny <[email protected]> wrote:

<So "S o r n i" <[email protected]> says: < <>>
You're full of ****. <> <>Hmmm. Who has more credibility
here? <> < <My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a
shop I figured I <should get a spoke tension gauge so I did.
I had been building wheels <for several years at that point
including working at The Cove Bike <Shop and a run of
several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge <was
telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
<problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I
wrenched <with no torque wrench and on wheels I built. <
<From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught
that your <breathing comes from your center and your center
and hands connect in <an unbroken line of energy. I
practiced for hours a day for years to <become aware of this
and compared to the minute adjustments required <to get even
a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
<less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I
was 13 so <playing the bass and riding and wrenching and
skiing were always part <of the same thing for me. < <I took
exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using
a <torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and
when I'm not <sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a
torque wrench. That just <doesn't happen very often. <ok?

I believe both of you have it right.

As an aside, I've only known one upright bass player. I
always thought he was a bit on the wimpy side, on the other
hand </groan> I could hardly pull on doz strings and get any
sound... he practiced to Eric Dolphy.
 
jeffbonny wrote:
> So "S o r n i" <[email protected]> says:
>
>>> You're full of ****.
>>
>> Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
>>
>
> My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
> figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I
> had been building wheels for several years at that
> point including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run
> of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
> was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't
> have any problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey
> on bikes I wrenched with no torque wrench and on wheels
> I built.
>
> From an early age I studied the upright bass and was
> taught that your breathing comes from your center and
> your center and hands connect in an unbroken line of
> energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to become
> aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments
> required to get even a passable sound with the bow
> feeling torque is somewhat less tenuous. I started racing
> and working on bikes when I was 13 so playing the bass
> and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part of
> the same thing for me.
>
> I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that
> not using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it
> isn't ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected"
> I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen
> very often. ok?

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer
words :) without resorting to profane insults.

Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of ****" S.
 
So "S o r n i" <[email protected]> says:

>Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many
>fewer words :)

If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please
edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful.
Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear.

>without resorting to profane insults.

When you attack with broad and inaccurate statements you get
what you get. FWIW I mostly agree with the guy and "begging
to differ" on this one thing does not mean I think he's full
of **** on everything. Far from it.

jeffb
 
jeffbonny <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> So "S o r n i" <[email protected]> says:
>
> >> You're full of ****.
> >
> >Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
> >
>
> My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
> figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I
> had been building wheels for several years at that
> point including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run
> of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
> was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't
> have any problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey
> on bikes I wrenched with no torque wrench and on wheels
> I built.
>
> From an early age I studied the upright bass and was
> taught that your breathing comes from your center and
> your center and hands connect in an unbroken line of
> energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to become
> aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments
> required to get even a passable sound with the bow
> feeling torque is somewhat less tenuous. I started racing
> and working on bikes when I was 13 so playing the bass
> and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part of
> the same thing for me.
>
> I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that
> not using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it
> isn't ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected"
> I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen
> very often. ok?
>
> jeffb

Dear Jeff,

You're full of ****.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
Originally posted by Jeffbonny
So [email protected] (Carl Fogel) says:

>Dear Jeff,
>
>You're full of ****.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

specifically or just in general?
Click to expand...

Dear Jeff,

"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer
words please edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm
I would be grateful."

"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear."
--Jeff Bonny on his "You're full of ****" post

Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to
be as clear as you insist. First you took a few posts
to explain it, and now you can't seem to understand it.

If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you
should learn to use a literary torque wrench and
not let your ego get in the way?

Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . .
maybe another notch? No . . . There!

Carl Fogel
 
In article <[email protected]>, sorni@bite-
me.san.rr.com says...
> jeffbonny wrote:
> > So "S o r n i" <[email protected]> says:
> >
> >>> You're full of ****.
> >>
> >> Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
> >>
> >
> > My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
> > figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I
> > had been building wheels for several years at that point
> > including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run of
> > several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge was
> > telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have
> > any problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on
> > bikes I wrenched with no torque wrench and on wheels I
> > built.
> >
> > From an early age I studied the upright bass and was
> > taught that your breathing comes from your center and
> > your center and hands connect in an unbroken line of
> > energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to become
> > aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments
> > required to get even a passable sound with the bow
> > feeling torque is somewhat less tenuous. I started
> > racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so playing the
> > bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always
> > part of the same thing for me.
> >
> > I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that
> > not using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it
> > isn't ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected"
> > I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen
> > very often. ok?
>
> Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer
> words :) without resorting to profane insults.
>
> Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of ****" S.
>
>
>
My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some
observation of various LBS of fair to excellent quality. As
I was originally trained as an engineer (likes to measure
everything), I asked their advice about a suitable torque
wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto torque
wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I recall,
they _all_ explained that they knew by feel, the
appropriate torque for each fastener. I found this to be a
bit odd, especially for items like stem bolts into alu
threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know
these LBS's do good work, in one case prepping a bike for
several very long distance unsupported outback desert treks
(not me riding) where bike failure could easily be fatal.
So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue- in-
cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a
torque wrench by experienced people. So I was surprised by
Peter's response (given that he is obviously a pro with an
excellent reputation) and I would be still be surprised to
hear he routinely used a torque wrench on other than
critical fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or
did not use one).

It is worth remembering that a decent design usually will
work over a fairly wide range of fastening torque. It has to
because the bolt tension will depend on thread condition,
cleanliness and lubrication as well as applied torque.
Because of these variables, sometimes thread tightening is
specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts. I
would certainly trust "sorni's" hands to work within those
accuracy limits, although I would prefer him to use the
torque wrench every so often just to remind himself what the
designer had in mind.

Bruce Graham
 
So carlfogel <[email protected]> says:

>Dear Jeff,
>
>"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words
>please edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm I would be
>grateful."
>
>"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff
>Bonny on his "You're full of ****" post

Dear Carl, Are you drunk? The above is Jeff Bonny commenting
on his SECOND post. That would be to post AFTER the one you
seem to think referring to.

>Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as
>clear as you insist. First you took a few posts to explain
>it, and now you can't seem to understand it.

What are you on about? I understand my position and think I
made it clear in two posts. You are going to have to be
specific if you want to be understood.

>If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should
>learn to use a literary torque wrench and not let your ego
>get in the way?

>Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe
>another notch? No . . . There!
>
>Carl Fogel

That would almost be clever Carl if it had anything to
do with the discussion as it took place in sequence but
it doesn't.
 
correction "jeffbonny" not "sorni" sorry

Bruce Graham
 
So Bruce Graham <[email protected]> says:

>correction "jeffbonny" not "sorni" sorry
>
>Bruce Graham

Indeed, credit where it is due.

Also if everyone would please note:
- I did not say torque wrenches are full of ****.
- I have admitted to using a torque wrench.
- I believe no shop is complete without a torque wrench.

I objected (and still do) to an unflattering
generalization of character that doesn't apply to me. I
said why I don't use one much and that makes me full of
**** then I guess I am.

jeffb
 
Originally posted by Jeffbonny
So carlfogel <[email protected]> says:

>Dear Jeff,
>
>"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words
>please edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm I would be
>grateful."
>
>"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff
>Bonny on his "You're full of ****" post

Dear Carl, Are you drunk? The above is Jeff Bonny commenting
on his SECOND post. That would be to post AFTER the one you
seem to think referring to.

>Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as
>clear as you insist. First you took a few posts to explain
>it, and now you can't seem to understand it.

What are you on about? I understand my position and think I
made it clear in two posts. You are going to have to be
specific if you want to be understood.

>If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should
>learn to use a literary torque wrench and not let your ego
>get in the way?

>Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe
>another notch? No . . . There!
>
>Carl Fogel

That would almost be clever Carl if it had anything to
do with the discussion as it took place in sequence but
it doesn't.
Click to expand...

Dear Jeff,

You seem lost again.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel
 
Bruce Graham wrote:

> My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some
> observation of various LBS of fair to excellent quality.
> As I was originally trained as an engineer (likes to
> measure everything), I asked their advice about a suitable
> torque wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto
> torque wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I
> recall, they _all_ explained that they knew by feel, the
> appropriate torque for each fastener. I found this to be a
> bit odd, especially for items like stem bolts into alu
> threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
> purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know
> these LBS's do good work, in one case prepping a bike for
> several very long distance unsupported outback desert
> treks (not me riding) where bike failure could easily be
> fatal. So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue-
> in-cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a
> torque wrench by experienced people. So I was surprised by
> Peter's response

Me too, given that I'm well known to be a shy, retiring
person without a trace of ego or self-promotion...

> (given that he is obviously a pro with an excellent
> reputation) and I would be still be surprised to hear he
> routinely used a torque wrench on other than critical
> fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or did not
> use one).
>
> It is worth remembering that a decent design usually
> will work over a fairly wide range of fastening torque.
> It has to because the bolt tension will depend on thread
> condition, cleanliness and lubrication as well as
> applied torque.

That's correct. I wouldn't claim my hands were "calibrated"
in the sense that I could reliably tighten some fastener to
a specified torque value. I do claim that my hands and the
brain they're attached to are good at judging appropriate
tightness of fasteners by feel, taking all of those
variables into account.

To me, using a torque wrench is a rote process that
disregards these critical variables.

> Because of these variables, sometimes thread tightening is
> specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
> such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts.

Actually, those are instances where I would suppose a torque
wrench to be desirable, when there's a sealing gasket
involved, especially the cylinder head exammple.

However I don't work on cars (usually even avoid
pumping my own gas!) so I have never needed nor owned a
torque wrench. I did once borrow one for a photo shoot:
http://sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html

Sheldon "Toolaholic, But Not For Automotive Stuff" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| If a fool would persist in his folly, | he would become
| wise. | --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery,
West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-
1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
So carlfogel <[email protected]> says:

>Dear Jeff,
>
>You seem lost again.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Carl Fogel

Dear Carl, If you've seen a doctor about anti-troll
medication you should check the dosage. If you haven't seen
that doctor you should. Failing that a logical self defense
course? You're KF-ed for a while Carl. Bye now.

jeffb
 
peter-<< They're not essential at all. I can't think of a
really torque-sensitive fitting on a bike. >><BR><BR>

think, 'crank bolts'....

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
Paul Davis wrote:

> Could anyone recommend a good torque wrench for a beginner
> (the local bike shop has warned me off of beam type torque
> wrenches)?

What are beam type torque wrenches? Is that what the Park
TW-1 and TW-2 are?

Anyone have experience with the MasterCraft ones? They're
available from Canadian Tire for about $70CDN. I know Snap-
On stuff is nice, but those torque wrenches seems
exceptionally expensive. :-(

Opinions?

Dave
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> peter-<< They're not essential at all. I can't think of a
> really torque-sensitive fitting on a bike. >><BR><BR>
>
> think, 'crank bolts'....

Crank bolts was indeed the application I had in mind.
Certainly crank bolts can be under-tightened, but can they
be over-tightened? The nominal torque usually given for the
typical 8 mm bolt is around 30 ft-lb (pretty much max
torque) where yield might be 40 ft-lb, so tighten too much &
the head snaps off. Lubricating threads, heads, washers,
etc. can make a 25% torque variation, as, in this case, can
lubing the tapers. The idea is to get the right clamp force,
torque is an approximation of that. I interpret the crank
bolt spec as "tight as you can w/o popping the head". I've
never popped a head or had a crank loosen, so my impression
is that there's a fair amount of leeway in even that "torque-
sensitive" application.
 
Peter Chisholm wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you
>>>don't like?

I replied in part:

>>It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody
>>wrote on a piece of paper for the mechanic's judgement
>>which takes into account the actual tolerances, surface
>>conditions and lubrication condition of the parts
>>involved.
>
Someone who turns into a piece of furniture when the moon is
full wrote:

> Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide
> judgement for the inexperienced?
>
That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for
experience.
>
>>>think, 'crank bolts'....
>>
>>Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the
>>same torque value for both sides. This is clearly an
>>oversimplification.
>>
>>It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the
>>right side. Here's why:
>>
>>When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left
>>side that comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra
>>tight precludes this.
>
>
> So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the
> left is wrong;

Not necessarily, I'm saying that a one-size-fits-all spec is
not as reliable as the judgement of a good mechanic.

> the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why
> blame the tool?
>
Who's blaming the tool? Might as well blame spell checkers
for some of the amusing malapropisms that come out of
various word processors.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/humor.html#checker
>
>>Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on
>>the right side, because this can cause chainline problems,
>>or, in extreme cases, chainring clearance problems.
>
>
> So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?
>
I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's
primarily an automotive tool.

My point is that torque wrenches are _not_ and _essential_
tool for bicycle work, and anybody who claims they are is
blowing smoke.

They may be of some use as "training wheels" for beginner
mechanics, though I suspect that, as with training wheels
for bikes, they delay mastery.

There's no substitute for breaking/stripping a few bits of
hardware to educate you hands and brain about how a properly
tightened fastener feels.

If you feel that you are incapable of judging tightness
without the aid of a torque wrench, go ahead and use one,
but don't assert that everybody needs to do so.

Sheldon "Doesn't Pound Wrenches With His Feet" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| Men have become the tools of their tools. | -- Henry
| David Thoreau |
+-------------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com
 
jeffbonny <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> So carlfogel <[email protected]> says:
>
> >Dear Jeff,
> >
> >You seem lost again.
> >
> >Good luck,
> >
> >Carl Fogel
>
> Dear Carl, If you've seen a doctor about anti-troll
> medication you should check the dosage. If you haven't
> seen that doctor you should. Failing that a logical self
> defense course? You're KF-ed for a while Carl. Bye now.
>
> jeffb

Whew! Now that he's out of the room, I can simply say that
he's full of ****!
 
Originally posted by Dave
Paul Davis wrote:

> Could anyone recommend a good torque wrench for a beginner
> (the local bike shop has warned me off of beam type torque
> wrenches)?

What are beam type torque wrenches? Is that what the Park
TW-1 and TW-2 are?

Anyone have experience with the MasterCraft ones? They're
available from Canadian Tire for about $70CDN. I know Snap-
On stuff is nice, but those torque wrenches seems
exceptionally expensive. :-(

Opinions?

Dave
Click to expand...

Dear Dave,

Yes, those are beam-type torque wrenches
from Park. Elsewhere in this long thread, John
Everett offered this nice link, which shows how
the different kinds of torque wrenches work:

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/3837/torqwren.html

As you turn the beam-style torque-wrench,
the long pointer moves across the scale to
one side or the other. The picture with the
pointer centered may be puzzling, but you'll
see how it works at a glance as soon as you
have one in your hand.

Click-type torque wrenches require you to
set a value with a twist-knob on the end
and then give an audible and tangible click
when the load reaches that value.

Yes, $nap-On tools are expensive--and often
preferred by professional mechanics working
on machines more likely to break tools than
bicycles.

A $20 US (or less) beam-style torque wrench is
likely to give you enough guidance for working
on a bicycle. Torque values are a usually a broad
range, such as 30-40 foot-pounds for the funny
threaded thingy that holds the cassette on.

Using a torque wrench is not a bad idea, since
it tells you that they really meant for you to
tighten that sucker down, harder than you
expected, or that (for Christ's sake!) you
shouldn't lean on that little nut with half
your weight.

For some things, like disk brakes and suspension
parts, torque wrenches are an excellent idea.
Such close tolerances on such small parts have
a smaller range of acceptable torque than
eat-clamps, and some of them need more
torque than you'd expect.

If you work on cars much beyond oil filters,
a torque wrench is expected. They're trickier
than bicycles.

Carl Fogel
 
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