tools

Quoted message said:

This came up on the IAM forum a few weeks ago and a (former?) serving police officer stated that
this was rubbish provided a) the blade was less than 3 (2?) inches and b) it wasn't a flick knife
and c) you didn't carry it with the intent to use it to do harm.

You can carry a folding knife less than 3" long. Anything else you need to have a 'reasonable
excuse' for, unless it's one of the knives that are specifically forbidden (such as flick knives).
Because the lock knife can be locked it's deemed not to be folding so you need a reasonable excuse
to carry one, no matter how long or short it is.

Ultimately it's up to the courts to determine what a reasonable excuse is - but it doesn't sound
very likely that a court would that a person on a bike carrying a knife that's an integral part of a
bike toolkit is being unreasonable... Unless you've found a stated case to the contrary, of course!

Quoted message said:

However, c) is an important one. If, when the police ask why you are carrying a knife you say "for
self defence" then that, in and of itself, is sufficient to establish that you are carrying it
"with intent".

Well, it negates the reasonable excuse. You are simply not allowed to carry offensive weapons in
this country for self-defence. I suppose the reason is that it implies you have thought about the
possibility of harming someone beforehand, rather than reacting to save yourself spontaneously by
using whatever came to hand, which is all the law allows.

David

David Bertenshaw said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This came up on the IAM forum a few weeks ago and a (former?) serving police officer stated that
this was rubbish provided a) the blade was less than 3 (2?) inches and b) it wasn't a flick knife
and c) you didn't carry it with the intent to use it to do harm.

Quoted message said:

You can carry a folding knife less than 3" long. Anything else you need to have a 'reasonable
excuse' for, unless it's one of the knives that are specifically forbidden (such as flick knives).
Because the lock knife can be locked it's deemed not to be folding so you need a reasonable excuse
to carry one, no matter how long or short it is.

People are paranoid about this law, and many police don't know it well enough. I usually carry a 3.5
inch locking folder. It is illegal to carry such a thing unless you have a good reason. I have three
good reasons. The first is that smaller knives are useless for making sandwiches. In fact this one
is only just usable. The second is that non-lockers are dangerous. They can fold up on you. I still
have a few scars from non-lockers, and now will never use one. The third is that it is a public
spirited citizen's duty to take a stand against stupid laws or interpretations thereof.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 650 3085 DoD #205 School of Informatics, Edinburgh
University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK. [dai.ed.ac.ukcamOpen ↗ ]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Bertenshaw said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This came up on the IAM forum a few weeks ago and a (former?)

serving

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

police officer stated that this was rubbish provided a) the blade

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

less than 3 (2?) inches and b) it wasn't a flick knife and c) you

didn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

carry it with the intent to use it to do harm.

Quoted message said:

You can carry a folding knife less than 3" long. Anything else you need to have a 'reasonable
excuse' for, unless it's one of the knives that are specifically forbidden (such as flick
knives). Because the lock knife can be locked it's deemed not to be folding so you need a
reasonable excuse to carry one, no matter how long or short it is.

People are paranoid about this law, and many police don't know it well enough.

People tend to be paranoid about laws that are open to wide ranges of interpretation by the police.
These are the same laws which tend not to be well known by the officers.

Quoted message said:

I usually carry a 3.5 inch locking folder. It is illegal to carry such a thing unless you have a
good reason. I have three good reasons. The first is that smaller knives are useless for making
sandwiches. In fact this one is only just usable. The second is that non-lockers are dangerous.
They can fold up on you. I still have a few scars from non-lockers, and now will never use one.
The third is that it is a public spirited citizen's duty to take a stand against stupid laws or
interpretations thereof.

That is a very admirable stance, and one which I would support in principle.

--
Mark South: Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net "I wonder why so many Finnish traditions are
related with booze?"
- Juha Sakkinen

In "]news:[email hidden], Mark South
<[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

People tend to be paranoid about laws that are open to wide ranges of interpretation by the
police. These are the same laws which tend not to be well known by the officers.

When ambulance drivers get prosecuted for speeing because they have a heart for transplanting rather
than a human in the back, can you blame them for their paranaoia?

Tony

--
raven-family.comraven-family.comOpen ↗

"Just because your're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you" Anon

Tim Woodall said:

However, c) is an important one. If, when the police ask why you are carrying a knife you say "for
self defence" then that, in and of itself, is sufficient to establish that you are carrying it
"with intent".

Rather like that shop owner and his rolling pin. I'm unsure how the police and their trunceons fit
into the self-defence bit. I presume they must have an exemption

James

--
homepage.ntlworld.comDscf0632.jpgOpen ↗

Mark South wrote:

The bottle opener is the most useful single tool on the Alien family.

Quoted message said:

However, a major downer is that several of said family have a (jolly useful) locking knife blade.
This means that they qualify, under the enlightened terms of the Criminal Justice Bill, as an
Offensive Weapon, with all the paperwork and court appearances that that entails.

Double eek. I do not have one, but I *do* have a Swiss Army knife with a locking lever catch thingie
on the main blade, which I sometimes have about my cycling person. It doesn't work very well,
though, so I might just get a suspended sentence...

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

David Bertenshaw () said:

You can carry a folding knife less than 3" long. Anything else you need to have a 'reasonable
excuse' for, unless it's one of the knives that are specifically forbidden (such as flick
knives). Because the lock knife can be locked it's deemed not to be folding so you need a
reasonable excuse to carry one, no matter how long or short it is.

Actually this is incorrect. I'm really surprised that nobody was willing to back up their anecdotal
advice with the relevant quotes. The 3" length is no longer an issue. Here is the relevant excerpt
from the CJA:

---------
Section: s139a Act: Criminal Justice Act 1988 Subject: "Offence Of Having Article With
Blade Or Point"

Any person who has any knife, knife blade, razor blade, axe and any other article which has a blade
or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to a person or
an offensive weapon with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
---------

I think the key issue is intent. Getting caught with a multi tool in the bottom of your panniers
along with a bunch of other cycling related tools is likely to lead to the assumption that the
"intent" was to use in event of mechanical failure - not to harm somebody.

Get caught with it in your hand during a bar brawl however is another matter entirely.

--
Dnc

Doesnotcompute said:

David Bertenshaw () said:

You can carry a folding knife less than 3" long. <snip>

Quoted message said:

Actually this is incorrect.

Actually, it's not.... See below ;-)

Quoted message said:

I'm really surprised that nobody was willing to back up their anecdotal advice with the relevant
quotes. The 3" length is no longer an issue. Here is the relevant excerpt from the CJA:

---------
Section: s139a Act: Criminal Justice Act 1988 Subject: "Offence Of Having Article With Blade
Or Point"

Any person who has any knife, knife blade, razor blade, axe and any other article which has a blade
or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to a person or
an offensive weapon with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
---------

I'm sorry, I don't think you have quite understood what is happening here.... S139a is inserted into
the CJA88 by S4 of the Offensive Weapons Act 96, and it refers only to school premises - I suspect
but am not certain because there were difficulties proving that schools are public places (otherwise
the original S139 would have applied).

The knives to which S139 and S139a applies are the same - hence the wording:

"139A. - (1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on
school premises shall be guilty of an offence."

S139 of course allows folding pocketknives under 3". But not lock knives - which is where this whole
debate started. The Alien uses a lockknife under 3". These are not exempted from the act - you have
to prove you have a lawful or reasonable excuse...

Quoted message said:

I think the key issue is intent. Getting caught with a multi tool in the bottom of your panniers
along with a bunch of other cycling related tools is likely to lead to the assumption that the
"intent" was to use in event of mechanical failure - not to harm somebody.

Get caught with it in your hand during a bar brawl however is another matter entirely.

Which I think you'll find from the rest of the thread is exactly what I said... In other words, the
previously expressed fear that you can be arrested for having an Alien toolkit in your saddle bag is
just another urban myth...

David