"too many professionals"

Daniel Connelly <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From : cyclingnews.comnewsOpen ↗

Furthermore, Verbruggen added that there are too many riders as well. "There are too many
professionals who really shouldn't be pro," he said. "We are working on a system to let riders
prove their value before they can sign a pro contract."

Vergruggen's an ass. I think signing a pro contract with someone who is willing to pay them is how a
rider proves their value....

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams. The rest
of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and organization)
before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
taking out a license.

Ronde Chump

"Ronde Chump" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.

Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say they're legit.

Quoted message said:

The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
taking out a license.

Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed to
a Cat 2 (with no placings), then took out a pro license. Good stuff.

2 years in a row he was eliminated in the prologue of Redlands (it went uphill - he was 25+ lbs.
overweight).

Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense of how good they are in a
negative race. I would guess the delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium where
the races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and crosswinds.

I think there is a cultural thing in the US that goes beyond the specifics of the sport of cycling.
There are plenty of delusional athletes outside the sport of cycling in the US. Plenty of delusional
people in general.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ronde Chump" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of

the "no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

minimum salary" rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that

are good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

competitive Cat. 1 riders, but definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.

Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say

they're legit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
organization) before tackling races

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a

Pro

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

should be more than just taking out a license.

Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his

Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed to a Cat 2 (with no placings), then

Quoted message said:

took out a pro license. Good stuff.

2 years in a row he was eliminated in the prologue of Redlands (it went

uphill - he was 25+ lbs. overweight).

Quoted message said:

Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense

of how good they are in a negative race. I would guess the

Quoted message said:

delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium where the

races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and

Quoted message said:

crosswinds.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

"Ronde Chump" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.

Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say they're legit.

Quoted message said:

The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than
just taking out a license.

Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed
to a Cat 2 (with no placings), then took out a pro license. Good stuff.

Are you talking about the "Cliff Bar" rep?

Quoted message said:

2 years in a row he was eliminated in the prologue of Redlands (it went uphill
- he was 25+ lbs. overweight).

Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense of how good they are in
a negative race. I would guess the delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium
where the races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and crosswinds.

In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

Quoted message said:

"Ronde Chump" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of the "no minimum salary"
rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are good competitive Cat. 1 riders, but
definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams.

Healthnet (Gord) just won 3 stages at the last NRC (Pomona), so I'd say they're legit.

Quoted message said:

The rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that still need more experience (riders and
organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC, Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than
just taking out a license.

Many years ago in Socal, we had a Cat 4 who placed in one race, got his Cat 3 upgrade, brownosed
to a Cat 2 (with no placings), then took out a pro license. Good stuff.

Just throwing out a question - Should a rider have to be at least a Cat 1 before becoming a "Pro" or
should anyone ( even a Cat 3 or 4) who can get on a team be allowed to be a "Pro".

Casey

Casey Kerrigan said:

Just throwing out a question - Should a rider have to be at least a Cat 1 before becoming a "Pro"
or should anyone ( even a Cat 3 or 4) who can get on a team be allowed to be a "Pro".

Anyone.

Categories are to control the composition of fields. In USCF racing, where teams are essentially
uncontrolled, this has to be done through the rider cateogory system. At the pro level, the teams
are regulated and ranked -- they need to maintain a certain standard to meet the requirements of
professional affiliation with a number of riders in a particular race which is limited by the rules.
To accomplish this, they should be able to hire whomever they wish. The control is at the team
level, rather than the rider level. To take it beyond that is overly intrusive.

So if there are weak riders, the solution is to increase requirements on teams -- the smaller number
of teams will take care of improving the average quality of riders.

Dan

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bike racing really caters to the delusional. Riders can get a false sense

of how good they are in a negative race. I would guess the

Quoted message said:

delusional aspect is less prevalent in a place like Belgium where the

races explode early with the narrow roads, cobbles and

Quoted message said:

crosswinds.

True to an extent, especially amongst the Belgians, and visiting Lithuanians, Dutch and Russians.
There are many occasions when the winning break gets away at the beginning of the race, and that is
always sobering. A negatively raced kermesse is almost a contradiction in terms, unless you're in
the third group or below. Then you start to get into the delusional territory. Pro kermesses can be
a bit different - steadier start, then really hard at the end. Depends who's there really.

Jeff

"Ronde Chump" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of

the "no

Quoted message said:

minimum salary" rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are

good

Quoted message said:

competitive Cat. 1 riders, but definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams. The
rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that

still

Quoted message said:

need more experience (riders and organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC,
Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
taking out a license.

I would guess (and this is only a guess) that the scenario is very different in European countries
where cycling is more popular. I always thought that the strong elite club system in Europe
provided the experience needed before taking the step up to the pro ranks. Since the availability
of elite amateur competition is lacking in the us (are there any regions in the us that have Cat 1
only events with decent fields week in and out?) don't we need Tier III pro teams to provide good
racing experiences to our up and coming racers even if it means so "undeserving" riders get to be
called pro's?

Steve

"Sabernet News" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Vergruggen's an ass. I think signing a pro contract with someone who is willing to pay them is how
a rider proves their value....

In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders *anything*, therefore most of the
"professionals" here are glorified amateurs.

snipped North American teams from: cyclingnews.comteams2003.shtmlOpen ↗

D1:USPS

D2:Navigators

D3:7Up/Maxxis Atlas Cold/Italpasta (Canada) Colavita/Bolla Healthnet Jelly Belly Jet Fuel Coffee
(Canada) Jittery Joe's Lemond Fitness/Blender Ofoto/Lombardi Prime Alliance Saturn Schroeder Iron
Sierra Nevada Sportsbook.com Webcor West Virginia Cycling Team <snip>

18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly is not representative of N.
America's strength in the sport. We do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.

We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.

E. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year

Quoted message said:

In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders *anything*, therefore most of the
"professionals" here are glorified amateurs.

snipped North American teams from:
cyclingnews.comteams2003.shtmlOpen ↗

D1:USPS

D2:Navigators

D3:7Up/Maxxis Atlas Cold/Italpasta (Canada) Colavita/Bolla Healthnet Jelly Belly Jet Fuel Coffee
(Canada) Jittery Joe's Lemond Fitness/Blender Ofoto/Lombardi Prime Alliance Saturn Schroeder
Iron Sierra Nevada Sportsbook.com Webcor West Virginia Cycling Team <snip>

18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly is not representative of N.
America's strength in the sport. We do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.

We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.

K. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year

I think we have a lot of the opposite happening in the USA as well. People who should be Cat 2's or
1's who are still riding week in and week out as a Cat. 3 and sandbagging events to win money in
those events. Of course everyone knows who these people are who have a gazillion upgrade points (I
knew one guy in the Southeast who had accumulated over 200 points as a 3 over the course of one
season and wouldn't upgrade to a 2). So sandbaggers suck, and pros who should be Cat. 3's still suck
just as bad. Delisional we are.

Tom

This is a fun discussion. Hein's 57 pro teams are actually the sum of Div I and II teams. Apparently
he is of the -correct- opinion that the Div III is not really pro. While I too thought he was aiming
at them in his critique. Now his position is becoming complete nonsens.

"Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Hein's 57

First laugh I've had since this morning.

"Bart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is a fun discussion. Hein's 57 pro teams are actually the sum of Div I and II teams.

Whoops. I guess my analysis is incorrect.

Quoted message said:

Apparently he is of the -correct- opinion that the Div III is not really pro.

Some of them are (the ones that actually pay the riders a living wage).

The rest are not.

Quoted message said:

While I too thought he was aiming at them in his critique. Now his position is becoming
complete nonsens.

Hein is a funny guy.

[email hidden] (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders *anything*, therefore most of the
"professionals" here are glorified amateurs.

18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly is not representative of N.
America's strength in the sport. We do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.

We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.

K. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year

I think we have a lot of the opposite happening in the USA as well. People who should be Cat 2's
or 1's who are still riding week in and week out as a Cat. 3 and sandbagging events to win money
in those events. Of course everyone knows who these people are who have a gazillion upgrade points
(I knew one guy in the Southeast who had accumulated over 200 points as a 3 over the course of one
season and wouldn't upgrade to a 2). So sandbaggers suck, and pros who should be Cat. 3's still
suck just as bad. Delisional we are.

Tom

Is there really that much money to make it worth staying a Cat 3 ? Most 3's stay a 3 because they
know that their ass will get handed to them if they upgrade. It has become more than evident that
this year D3 teams hired marginal Cat 2 amateurs for nothing, rather than picking up quality
seasoned Pro's and pay them a decent wage. There are a good number of U.S. Pros that are sitting on
the sideline this year because they can't ride for peanuts. It was a marginal living at best for
many of them, but now they simply can not make ends meet.

OMC

Verbruggen was only counting DI and DII teams, so your theory is basically shot. He's trying to
cover up the fact that once again the UCI got caught with their pants down with Team Coast,
despite having lots of warnings. It's a reflection of his amazingly parochial view of cycling as a
pro sport.

Becoming a pro should mean finding someone willing to pay you to be one. Letting the UCI decide it
is ludicrous.

Ronde Chump <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's exactly HVB's point....that too many TT3s are taking advntage of

the "no

Quoted message said:

minimum salary" rule. The fact is that there are many in the US that are

good

Quoted message said:

competitive Cat. 1 riders, but definitely not Pro material, yet.

Saturn, Prime, Schroeder, 7up, Sierra, maybe Healthnet & Jelly Belly are legitimate teams. The
rest of TT3 is really just Elite Amateurs that

still

Quoted message said:

need more experience (riders and organization) before tackling races like Georgia, SF, NYC,
Wachovia, etc.

I'd guess that it's a similar scenario in other countries. Becoming a Pro should be more than just
taking out a license.

Ronde Chump

"Sabernet News" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Verbruggen was only counting DI and DII teams, so your theory is basically shot. He's trying to
cover up the fact that once again the UCI got caught with their pants down with Team Coast,
despite having lots of warnings. It's a reflection of his amazingly parochial view of cycling as a
pro sport.

Becoming a pro should mean finding someone willing to pay you to be one.

You are ignoring the fact that most of the D3 "pros" are paid a salary of $0.00

What region of the country has THAT many separate Cat3 races? Most of the ones I have seen in the
Mid Atl. are 1 through 3. That makes it more difficult to upgrade.

Michigan had a whole series of separate races so upgrading was eventually going to happen if you
won/placed. Also, no one wants to stay a 3 because there is little to no teamwork. They were
essentially longer&faster cat 4 races.

"OMC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In North America, most of the D3 teams don't pay their riders

*anything*, therefore most of the "professionals" here are glorified

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amateurs.

18 of the 57 professional teams are in North America. That certainly

is not representative of N. America's strength in the sport. We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do not have 30% of the top 500 riders here.

We may have the highest incidence of Delusion.

K. Gringioni getting together my Fattie Master D3 team for next year

I think we have a lot of the opposite happening in the USA as well. People who should be Cat 2's
or 1's who are still riding week in and week out as a Cat. 3 and sandbagging events to win money
in those events. Of course everyone knows who these people are who have a gazillion upgrade
points (I knew one guy in the Southeast who had accumulated over 200 points as a 3 over the
course of one season and wouldn't upgrade to a 2). So sandbaggers suck, and pros who should be
Cat. 3's still suck just as bad. Delisional we are.

Tom

Is there really that much money to make it worth staying a Cat 3 ? Most 3's stay a 3 because they
know that their ass will get handed to them if they upgrade. It has become more than evident that
this year D3 teams hired marginal Cat 2 amateurs for nothing, rather than picking up quality
seasoned Pro's and pay them a decent wage. There are a good number of U.S. Pros that are sitting
on the sideline this year because they can't ride for peanuts. It was a marginal living at best
for many of them, but now they simply can not make ends meet.

OMC

In article said:

What region of the country has THAT many separate Cat3 races? Most of the ones I have seen in the
Mid Atl. are 1 through 3. That makes it more difficult to upgrade.

Just about every race in Nor Cal has a separate Cat 3 race. Heck we have a bunch of races with a
separate Cat 3 women's race. Early season training races and twilight races are about the only time
the 3s are combined with the 1/2Pros here.

Casey