ToC

Crankyfeet said:

Just that the whole raison detre of the team is that they are going to be clean. And this being a very early race in their existence... IMO even they would probably want to know how good/bad riding clean fares in the competition.

Call it a hunch... (I see my self as a cycnic)... but I think these guys, even if they may end up back on the dark side, are at least going to walk the walk at first... if nothing more than to see how it goes. For them to dope from race number one... makes me wonder if they would be able to sleep at night after all the hullaballoo about their team.

How did Millar sleep when he was using EPO?

All teams are in a race to proclaim their cleanliness, and I don't think Slipstream is really much different. I know I'm a skeptic, but why wouldn't you be at this point? I have no reason to think that Millar or Vande Velde are any cleaner than Leipheimer except for good faith, and I have none left for pro cycling.

fscyclist said:

How did Millar sleep when he was using EPO?

I think there is some difference now. When he was doing it years ago...the peloton generally didn't think it was cheating if you passed tests... and the public were naive to how prevalent it was. If Slipstream are doping atm...then I'm giving up on following pro cycling (there may be a guy who is doing it on the sly... worried about his spot in the team perhaps... but I am banking on them being clean for now).

If you think they are dirty... then I don't know how you could ever imagine a way out of this mire, or ever want to watch it.

fscyclist said:

I don't know. But I think it is unfair to jump all over Levi for a good performance but give Slipstream a pass (especially when their team is composed of convicted and alleged dopers). I do think it's interesting that all of them beat Danny Pate by 3 minutes. He's not known for his TT ability, but this was a short TT and that is a lot of time.

I know Slipstream is peaking for this race, as Levi may also be doing, so for all of them to beat Cancellara (who may care little about the ToC) isn't a big surprise. Again, I just don't like hypocrisy.

actually Pate is known for his tt ability,

won u23 worlds in about 01

If we were in the middle of the season, I would say that Levi was on dope. But it's the beginning, a lot of riders are just at ToC for training, especially Cancellara who is focusing classic.
So no probleme for me, especially it's better for cyclism promotion to give the victory to an American!

poulidor said:

If we were in the middle of the season, I would say that Levi was on dope. But it's the beginning, a lot of riders are just at ToC for training, especially Cancellara who is focusing classic.
So no probleme for me, especially it's better for cyclism promotion to give the victory to an American!

yep, agree with poulidor. the fact that it is feb, lowers suspicions.

...however.

the big programs all have their subjects taking loads of hormones in the off-season, and banking blood.

Like to see Daamsgaards numbers on Mr LL

I could add there were probably a monetary arrangement between them. Levi can easily make some money for a such victory in US.
A winning-winning agreement had probably been settled.

poulidor said:

I could add there were probably a monetary arrangement between them. Levi can easily make some money for a such victory in US.
A winning-winning agreement had probably been settled.

such a whining [censored] tho, wheelsucked gesink all the way up that climb.

FS: Miller, Zabriskie and Cancellara are TT specialists. On dope Miller would beat Levi and would challenge Cancellara as would riders such as Wiggins in prologues.

The performances of Miller in 2001-3 were much stronger than now and this difference can be put down to non doping now.

I am not sure why Cancellara didn't perform better but maybe the rain had an affect.
In terms of Slipstream racing clean well I would like to point otu that they are one of the only teams truly speaking out anti doping.

Many other teams such as Caisse, Saunier, Liquigas, Rabobank stay very quiet and even CSC & Astana just state how great the Dams' passport is rather than actually saying doping is wrong.

There is no way Slipstream are dirty, they have too much to lose. If their business model works i.e. running a team clean with clever marketing rather than being wholely dependent on results then they will be a long term team and should cause a change in dsirection amongst other cyclist.

The more cyclists that stop doping the more obviously it will be that certain individuals are the true dopees and then the UCI & WADA stealth SWAT team can jump!

plectrum said:

FS: Miller, Zabriskie and Cancellara are TT specialists. On dope Miller would beat Levi and would challenge Cancellara as would riders such as Wiggins in prologues.

The performances of Miller in 2001-3 were much stronger than now and this difference can be put down to non doping now.

I am not sure why Cancellara didn't perform better but maybe the rain had an affect.
In terms of Slipstream racing clean well I would like to point otu that they are one of the only teams truly speaking out anti doping.

Many other teams such as Caisse, Saunier, Liquigas, Rabobank stay very quiet and even CSC & Astana just state how great the Dams' passport is rather than actually saying doping is wrong.

There is no way Slipstream are dirty, they have too much to lose. If their business model works i.e. running a team clean with clever marketing rather than being wholely dependent on results then they will be a long term team and should cause a change in dsirection amongst other cyclist.

The more cyclists that stop doping the more obviously it will be that certain individuals are the true dopees and then the UCI & WADA stealth SWAT team can jump!

no one knows where Cancellara, and Millar and DZ and LL are on their individual form curve and how deep they were willing to go in the tt. If Cancellara has not spent any time on his chrono bike over winter, how could he be expected to be at 100%.

One suspects LL's motivation was higher than most.

thunder said:

no one knows where Cancellara, and Millar and DZ and LL are on their individual form curve and how deep they were willing to go in the tt. If Cancellara has not spent any time on his chrono bike over winter, how could he be expected to be at 100%.

One suspects LL's motivation was higher than most.

I suspect Cancellara didn't feel up for it, but although LL motivation was high it would have been equal to Miller who could have taken the frist big race of the year for Slipstream. LL comes from Astana, Astana are not allowed to race the big races... go figure.

Yes it all has to do with the past, not just Astana's more over a combination about how people feel about Discovery and Astana combined.

I'm very pleased to see 1. Slipstream 2. Astana in the Team GC as I do not feel in anyway Astana is a clean team

plectrum said:

I suspect Cancellara didn't feel up for it, but although LL motivation was high it would have been equal to Miller who could have taken the frist big race of the year for Slipstream. LL comes from Astana, Astana are not allowed to race the big races... go figure.

Yes it all has to do with the past, not just Astana's more over a combination about how people feel about Discovery and Astana combined.

I'm very pleased to see 1. Slipstream 2. Astana in the Team GC as I do not feel in anyway Astana is a clean team

ofcourse Astana are not clean

thunder said:

ofcourse Astana are not clean

Indeed, interms of training i think Slipstream has had a really good pre-season. i read a 12 page article on Slipstream in a UK cycling mag and they seemed like a very tight knit content team.

On a such race there is no reason to dope for well-thinking people only idiot could do, even JB would not allowed his riders to dope. The risk are so high.
All Astana BS PR would come down... and I think the kazak president would cut the JB's balls !

Or maybe they are more stupid and addicted than I believe.

I think we will see a new omerta but that kind of ormerta will be against dopers. A lot of riders and teams know the risk, a scandal and the team is over. The Bassons are going to spank the Armstrong.
The Revenge is on!

thunder said:

actually Pate is known for his tt ability,

won u23 worlds in about 01

You are correct, but I don't remember any big TT wins since, but there may be reasons for that.

Levi has always been a strong time trialist.

I know he finished in the Top Ten in the 2005 TDF.

But is it my imagination or is he ripping up time trials and some of these races since joining Discovery.

I had always liked him but have to admit that since last year I cheer against him more.

poulidor said:

I could add there were probably a monetary arrangement between them. Levi can easily make some money for a such victory in US.
A winning-winning agreement had probably been settled.

Maybe, but CSC is an american company. Some of the corporate big wigs are likely to be at the race. The ToC is probably pretty important to the team. It would be hard to pay back a non-monetary arrangement since Astana won't be at many of the big races this season.

Cancellara might have just had a bad day.

hawkeye87 said:

Levi has always been a strong time trialist.

I know he finished in the Top Ten in the 2005 TDF.

But is it my imagination or is he ripping up time trials and some of these races since joining Discovery.

Levi has been good at shorter, 20 - 30K ITTs for the last few years. I don't think he challenged for the win in longer distances before last year's TdF. I may be wrong about that. I agree that he took a big step up after rejoining Bruyneel.

plectrum said:

FS: Miller, Zabriskie and Cancellara are TT specialists. On dope Miller would beat Levi and would challenge Cancellara as would riders such as Wiggins in prologues.

The performances of Miller in 2001-3 were much stronger than now and this difference can be put down to non doping now.

I am not sure why Cancellara didn't perform better but maybe the rain had an affect.
In terms of Slipstream racing clean well I would like to point otu that they are one of the only teams truly speaking out anti doping.

Many other teams such as Caisse, Saunier, Liquigas, Rabobank stay very quiet and even CSC & Astana just state how great the Dams' passport is rather than actually saying doping is wrong.

There is no way Slipstream are dirty, they have too much to lose. If their business model works i.e. running a team clean with clever marketing rather than being wholely dependent on results then they will be a long term team and should cause a change in dsirection amongst other cyclist.

The more cyclists that stop doping the more obviously it will be that certain individuals are the true dopees and then the UCI & WADA stealth SWAT team can jump!

I hope you are right about Slipstream, but I'm going to reserve judgement. There are some riders on their team I believe are clean and always have been clean (Pate). There are others that we know were dirty (Millar) and many others we are pretty sure were doping...heavily. How reformed these individuals are, I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to say "There is no way Slipstream is dirty.." given the track record of pro cycling and the players on that team. I hope Vaughters intentions are good, and even if they are, he only has so much control over these riders.

Really, the point I was making is I don't find it fair to jump on Levi and call him a doper for a good performance in what really is a POS race in February, but no one mentions that the 2nd and 3rd place finishes were by Slipstream. No one gets a free pass in my book.

One last point that I think is worth mentioning, which I've also stated before, is that I believe long term doping has long term effects. Someone that has doped for years has been able to train and race at a much higher level than a non-doper and change their physiology to some degree. When you read interviews by past champions they speak of how completing your first TdF really does change your body and that completing something of that duration and intensity makes you much stronger. Well, what about completing it on dope at an even higher intensity, or training for years at a level you never would have been capable? It seems this would have the same effect. I know I can't prove (or disprove) this as no study has been performed or will be, but it makes sense (to me). The point of that is I believe cheaters like Millar will always benefit from their dope use even if they have stopped using. Cycling won't be a level playing field until the doping generation leaves.

hawkeye87 said:

Levi has always been a strong time trialist.

I know he finished in the Top Ten in the 2005 TDF.

But is it my imagination or is he ripping up time trials and some of these races since joining Discovery.

I had always liked him but have to admit that since last year I cheer against him more.

Yes...take a look at his 2006 TdF TT's for Gerolsteiner. He finished like 3-4 minutes behind Cadel on each one.

fscyclist said:

I hope you are right about Slipstream, but I'm going to reserve judgement. There are some riders on their team I believe are clean and always have been clean (Pate). There are others that we know were dirty (Millar) and many others we are pretty sure were doping...heavily. How reformed these individuals are, I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to say "There is no way Slipstream is dirty.." given the track record of pro cycling and the players on that team. I hope Vaughters intentions are good, and even if they are, he only has so much control over these riders.

Really, the point I was making is I don't find it fair to jump on Levi and call him a doper for a good performance in what really is a POS race in February, but no one mentions that the 2nd and 3rd place finishes were by Slipstream. No one gets a free pass in my book.

One last point that I think is worth mentioning, which I've also stated before, is that I believe long term doping has long term effects. Someone that has doped for years has been able to train and race at a much higher level than a non-doper and change their physiology to some degree. When you read interviews by past champions they speak of how completing your first TdF really does change your body and that completing something of that duration and intensity makes you much stronger. Well, what about completing it on dope at an even higher intensity, or training for years at a level you never would have been capable? It seems this would have the same effect. I know I can't prove (or disprove) this as no study has been performed or will be, but it makes sense (to me). The point of that is I believe cheaters like Millar will always benefit from their dope use even if they have stopped using. Cycling won't be a level playing field until the doping generation leaves.

I'd agree with that.

The dope legacy.

So even if someone goes clean, they are still reaping benefits in the future, that they otherwise would not, if they were on bread and water,