to sit up or lie down?

I ride a fairly high up bent, gives me eye to eye contact with car drivers, I also ride a somewhat
lower trike, I do not any more problems with cars than when I have ridden a wedgie, the simple fact
is that the drivers that cause the problems are the ones who insist on letting the guide dog steer.

Ian

Quoted message said:

From: "Leslie" <[email hidden]> Organization: BT Openworld Newsgroups:
uk.rec.cycling Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:39:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: to sit up or lie down?

Sorry if you've covered this lots of times before, but ... I'm a town (London) cyclist - not
hugely experienced or skilled - who likes to use the bike to move the kids or shopping around
and use up calories while avoiding the traffic queues. I ride a regular bike and have never
tried a recumbent, but I am attracted to the idea of buying one because some of the
load-carrying options look very stable. However, I feel that half my current level of safety on
the road comes from the (both active and passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average
car height - and that this wouldn't be compensated for by a flag on a pole. In brief, is my
caution well-founded? Thanks Leslie

Leslie said:

However, I feel that half my current level of safety on the road comes from the (both active and
passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average car height - and that this wouldn't be
compensated for by a flag on a pole. In brief, is my caution well-founded?

Mr Larrington's opinion will be better than mine here but I reckon that the "WTF?" factor is
sufficient to more than compensate for the lower profile in visibility terms. Filtering in traffic
is harder on a low bike, but trikes are great in stop-start traffic.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ Advance
notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.

Leslie said:

However, I feel that half my current level of safety on the road comes from the (both active and
passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average car height - and that this wouldn't be
compensated for by a flag on a pole. In brief, is my caution well-founded?

No.

The morons even drive into lamp-posts, so height is no guarantee of them managing to avoid you.

Ride something that they can't immediately discard from their limited autonomous thought-free visual
processing and they actually look at what you are and what you're doing. I have far fewer near
misses requiring me to take evasive action on my low tricycle than on an upright on teh same route.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Where are you? Best to try and see for yourself that the dark side is safe!!

SW

"Leslie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorry if you've covered this lots of times before, but ... I'm a town (London) cyclist - not
hugely experienced or skilled - who

likes

Quoted message said:

to use the bike to move the kids or shopping around and use up calories while avoiding the traffic
queues. I ride a regular bike and have never tried a recumbent, but I am attracted to the idea of
buying one because some of the load-carrying options look very stable. However, I feel that half
my current level of safety on the road comes

from

Quoted message said:

the (both active and passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average car height - and that
this wouldn't be compensated for by a flag on a

pole.

Quoted message said:

In brief, is my caution well-founded? Thanks Leslie

My usual commuting mount - from Walthamstow to London Bridge - is an HP Velotechnik Speedmachine
with a seat height of 16". This puts my eyes at around base-of-the-windscreen level. Previously I
used a Kingcycle, which had me at about car driver level instead, and I've also used a trike from
time to time, which put one at lorry-wheelnut altitude.

IME the fact that recumbents are still an uncommon sight on the roads means that the tin boxen pay
them more mind than they do an upwrong - having been on one last Friday and today (recumbent brakes
need attention, chiz) - the anonymity is nice but the half-crazed bus drivers intent on forcing you
into the kerb is not.

One will occasionally get thicko motorists who tell you "that's too low, you can't see it". At this
point you may care to:

o observe that *they* managed it, so it can't be that difficult o ask them if they have difficulty
seeing the white lines on the road o shoot them and burn the body (if it's a bus driver)

HTH

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Many thanks for these replies: I'm encouraged. However, you didn't really address the question of
'active' visibility - that is, MY ability to see and take account of the traffic around me. Take the
example of crossing an intersection. I want to go straight ahead on the inside lane, while outside
lane traffic in both directions is looking for the opportunity to turn right. On an upright I can
usually see if anyone is showing the intention of turning across me - but on a recumbent I doubt I
would have that visibility. I assume that a percentage of drivers are incompetent, malicious or just
temporarily distracted - I'm a driver too, and do not want to cast the first stone - and I want to
be in a position where I can remain in command of the situation as far as possible. Again, thanks
for your time. Leslie

"Leslie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorry if you've covered this lots of times before, but ... I'm a town (London) cyclist - not
hugely experienced or skilled - who

likes

Quoted message said:

to use the bike to move the kids or shopping around and use up calories while avoiding the traffic
queues. I ride a regular bike and have never tried a recumbent, but I am attracted to the idea of
buying one because some of the load-carrying options look very stable. However, I feel that half
my current level of safety on the road comes

from

Quoted message said:

the (both active and passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average car height - and that
this wouldn't be compensated for by a flag on a

pole.

Quoted message said:

In brief, is my caution well-founded? Thanks Leslie

Leslie said:

I ride a regular bike and have never tried a recumbent, but I am attracted to the idea of buying
one because some of the load-carrying options look very stable.

If you really want a monster load carrier then there are plenty of options that involve you staying
upright. Trikes like the Pashley Loadtrike ain't ever going to fall over (but don't expect to keep
up with traffic at > 10 mph on a regular basis).

Sticking to bikes, go and have a word with Bikefix about the Burrows 8 Freight:
bikefix.co.uk8freight.htmlOpen ↗

You might also investigate 2 wheel trailers if stability of loads is an issue you wish to address

Quoted message said:

However, I feel that half my current level of safety on the road comes from the (both active and
passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average car height - and that this wouldn't be
compensated for by a flag on a pole. In brief, is my caution well-founded?

Never hurts to be cautious, but IME of riding 'bents (about 4 years now) it's not actually a very
big concern on the road. My pal Tom says he doesn't feel especially vulnerable in his Lotus Elise
and that's got lower seats than my Streetmachine, and I don't think most of the motorists who
express concern would think twice about their safety if you asked, "would you like to drive a
Lotus Elise?"

The Streetmachine is, like Dave's old Kingcycle, about standard car seat height. I can't see over
traffic so well, but OTOH it's *very* good for eye contact, at which point you *know* if you've been
seen or not. I also find, like Dave and Guy, that the "wtf factor" helps to some extent[1]. Vertical
height doesn't really seem to come into it that much, with typical driving positions giving a good
eyeful of anything from the road level to standing height. IME the people that don't see me on *any*
cycle (or car, or foot) are the people that didn't look, and I know they didn't because I was
looking at them not doing it. It doesn't matter how high you are in these cases (I think Danny said
he's been SMIDSYed on a unicycle before...). And when you do get caught smacking into the front wing
of the fool that's just pulled out in front of you, would you be safer hitting it feet first from a
position unlikely to take you far off the bike, or sailing over the bars head first towards the
tarmac? Or indeed, would you prefer your avoidance chances to be based on use of very good brakes
and braking characteristics helped by low height, or brakes that tend to send you over the bars in
an emergency even if you *do* pull up in time? There's more to safety than seat height.

When I got my first 'bent it took me about a month to get to the point where I was *as* happy in
traffic as on my upright. Note that that level is fairly high, probably higher than a good % of
cyclists overall, and I was quite happy *enough* to take on city centre traffic at Rush Hour[2]
after a few days. Don't expect to get on a bike with different balance characteristics than you're
used to and immediately feel completely happy on it: it's entirely possible it'll take a bit longer
(I think Guy is something of an exception in feeling right at home straight away), but once you've
learned to, well, ride a bike then it's not a skill that will go away.

Pete.

[1] When I got my first 'bent I found I was given more space, so it gave me the confidence to take
more space to start with (not that I was in the gutter before, mind). Now I find that if I take
that same amount of space on an upright then nobody much seems to mind (excepting the inevitable
odd [censored], but they'll mind if you even exist).

[2] Dundee's idea of rush hour is, of course, rather different to the Smoke's, but there's
stop-start, lane changing in/from queues and other such festive nonsense all the same, even if
not nearly so much of it.

--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Leslie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Sorry if you've covered this lots of times before, but ... I'm a town (London) cyclist - not
hugely experienced or skilled - who likes to use the bike to move the kids or shopping around
and use up calories while avoiding the traffic queues. I ride a regular bike and have never
tried a recumbent, but I am attracted to the idea of buying one because some of the
load-carrying options look very stable. However, I feel that half my current level of safety on
the road comes from the (both active and passive) visibility I have, sitting above the average
car height - and that this wouldn't be compensated for by a flag on a pole. In brief, is my
caution well-founded? Thanks Leslie

I've had fewer near misses since I got my Street Machine than I had on my mountain bike. That's on
the A217 between Redhill and Epsom, a fairly good vis. dual carriage way. I've found cycling in
traffic in towns is fine - having the same eye height as drivers works well.

The main problem I'd worry about (but haven't encountered yet) is cycling at night and being
obscured by parked cars as another pulls out. I've just stuck a couple of flashing LEDs on to a
pole, and feel happy enough.

The other main problem is that you don't see as far ahead - you're now seeing the same as drivers
- this takes a little bit of getting used to, but after a few commutes, it was no longer a
problem for me.

Load carrying is superb - when I bring back a load of shopping on mine, the handling doesn't
seem to be affected any where near as much as my wedgie, and with the low centre of gravity,
handling is great.

In short, I haven't taken my wedgie out since I got my recumbent a year ago!

If you're in London and want to have a test ride, pop into BikeFix (www.bikefix.co.uk). (I think
there's another recumbent place, but cannot remember the name).

If you try under seat steering, make sure you try it for more than 5 minutes - it took me that
long to figure out that you steer with balance (i.e. same as a normal bike) rather than the
handle bars!!!

Cheers, Leigh

To email, replace google with leigh.

Leslie said:

However, you didn't really address the question of 'active' visibility - that is, MY ability to
see and take account of the traffic around me. Take the example of crossing an intersection. I
want to go straight ahead on the inside lane, while outside lane traffic in both directions is
looking for the opportunity to turn right. On an upright I can usually see if anyone is showing
the intention of turning across me - but on a recumbent I doubt I would have that visibility.

I find that since I'm down at car-seat level and don't have so good a turning circle (the
Streetmachine has limited lock from the underseat steering) as on one of the uprights that I tend to
ride more like I drive in the sort of situation where it will make a difference. But cars manage it
okay, and thus so do I. I might have to wait a little longer to head up the queue, but at least I
get to do the waiting in a comfy chair I can easily reach the ground from (and there are plenty of
times in traffic where just waiting in the queue is the most sensible course of action in any case).

Active safety like better braking characteristics is nice to have as well, of course!

Note that whether you're on an upright or a 'bent, if you have really stable load carrying that
means more more than two inline wheels, so you'll have to ride like you drive to a greater extent
anyway from your greater track width.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Leigh Hunt said:

Load carrying is superb - when I bring back a load of shopping on mine, the handling doesn't seem
to be affected any where near as much as my wedgie, and with the low centre of gravity, handling
is great.

Good, innit? :-) The lowriders make a big difference for heavy stuff, I find. If you stick heavy
loads on the back with nothing else on it tends to squirm a bit (as does any bike IME if overloaded
at the back), but with main weight under the rider between the wheels handling is almost exactly the
same. And having the racks the sprung side of the suspension makes a difference for delicate items
too: I can go on fruit picking trips and return 10 miles at speed and *not* have 40 litres of
anonymous berry puree!

Quoted message said:

If you try under seat steering, make sure you try it for more than 5 minutes - it took me that
long to figure out that you steer with balance (i.e. same as a normal bike) rather than the
handle bars!!!

I found that with my first 'bent though it has above seat steer (an Orbit Crystal). What I found odd
was trying a trike for the first time since I was about 5... even knowing I would have to actively
steer, I spent the first few minutes heading diagonally towards the kerbs.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Leslie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

the example of crossing an intersection. I want to go straight ahead on

the

Quoted message said:

inside lane, while outside lane traffic in both directions is looking for the opportunity to turn
right. On an upright I can usually see if anyone

is

Quoted message said:

showing the intention of turning across me - but on a recumbent I doubt I would have that
visibility.

Junctions demand slightly more care, no doubt at all. On the other hand, we seem to manage them OK -
you get used to it.

I have become more cautious when emerging from junctions, and this has also made me more cautious on
the wedgie and in the MDG. Not a bad thing overall I would say.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

Leigh Hunt said:

If you're in London and want to have a test ride, pop into BikeFix (www.bikefix.co.uk). (I think
there's another recumbent place, but cannot remember the name).

It is (pause, drum roll) London Recumbents! Mostly to be found in Dulwich Park, but occasionally in
Battersea Park as well. See: londonrecumbents.comlondonrecumbents.comOpen ↗

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Leslie said:

Many thanks for these replies: I'm encouraged. However, you didn't really address the question of
'active' visibility - that is, MY ability to see and take account of the traffic around me.

Ah, you didn't really explain that was what you meant.

On a low trike (my eye level is at or just below bonnet level) there is an issue if I'm turning out
onto a road from between parked cars. I do so carefully, and so far I've lived.

There are few junctions that are that obstructed, however.

In your example of proceeding across a junction - on an upright you're somewhat more likely to see
if someone is intent on turning across you, but on a recumbent it's much less likely that anyone is
so intent.

Overall, I find I feel less endangered on my recumbent than on an upright, but I haven't ridden it
in city centre traffic. Outer London commuter rush-hour is the busiest I've done, but I do that
twice a day.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Leslie said:

On an upright I can usually see if anyone is showing the intention of turning across me - but on a
recumbent I doubt I would have that visibility.

I've never found it to be a problem, but I would mention a similar issue that you should be aware
of. On an upright bike your head is pretty much over the front of the vehicle. On a recumbent your
head is a few feet behind the front of the vehicle. This can make it much harder to see what's
coming when turning out of a side road.

The situation improves slightly once you get the hang of leaning forward while riding.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( juggler.netdannyOpen ↗ ) Recumbent cycle page:
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukrecumbentsOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine

Peter Clinch said:

(I think Danny said he's been SMIDSYed on a unicycle before...).

Due to a lack of sleep resulting from a toddler suffering with chicken pox in hot weather, my memory
is currently functioning about as efficiently as a Windows PC that has been repeatedly switched off
without first shutting down. So I wouldn't discount my having said that, and if I said it then it
happened, but I don't remember it.

I have certainly been SMIDHYed on the Coker. While I was riding on the cyclepath, a woman with a
loose dog held its collar while a cyclist passed in the other direction. She then let it go
directly in front of me, telling me that she hadn't heard me coming. She said nothing about not
having seen me.

A unicycle, having no drivetrain and no freewheel, is a very silent machine. Even so, you'd think
she'd have seen someone 7' tall, on one wheel and clad in red Lycra.

(BTW, after several months out of action I finally got round to fitting new bearings properly on the
Coker on Saturday. So if I catch up on enough sleep to get up 20 minutes earlier than usual on Bike
to Work day, I shan't be biking).

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( juggler.netdannyOpen ↗ ) Recumbent cycle page:
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukrecumbentsOpen ↗ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine

I don't think I would freely admit to seeing a 7'tall red pixie riding a unicycle either, I bet even
the dog thought he had been drugged. :-)

Ian

Quoted message said:

From: "Danny Colyer" <[email hidden]>

A unicycle, having no drivetrain and no freewheel, is a very silent machine. Even so, you'd think
she'd have seen someone 7' tall, on one wheel and clad in red Lycra.

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Leigh Hunt said:

If you're in London and want to have a test ride, pop into BikeFix (www.bikefix.co.uk). (I think
there's another recumbent place, but cannot remember the name).

It is (pause, drum roll) London Recumbents! Mostly to be found in Dulwich Park, but occasionally
in Battersea Park as well. See: londonrecumbents.comlondonrecumbents.comOpen ↗

Ahh yes - kind of obvious really, when you think about it!

Cheers, Leigh.

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I found that with my first 'bent though it has above seat steer (an Orbit Crystal). What I found
odd was trying a trike for the first time since I was about 5... even knowing I would have to
actively steer, I spent the first few minutes heading diagonally towards the kerbs.

Pete.

Yep - I think anyone watching me try a Street Machine last year outside Bike Fix would have had a
laugh - I couldn't do anything but cycle in a straight(ish) line.

Then I tried a BikE, didn't think it looked anywhere near as good ('cos I'm vain like that!), and
tried the SM a few weeks later. Once the guy in the shop told me to steer by leaning, it was all
fairly easy - if a bit wobbly.

The last thing I managed to master (after a few miles) was a U-turn in a normal (i.e. 2 car widths)
road - once you're OK with that, you forget worrying about handling, and just get on with it!

Again, in answer to Leslie's original question, like Danny said, the being about 3 feet further
behind a Give Way than normal takes a bit of getting used to, but once you realise it's the same in
a car, you soon get used to it.

Leigh.

Leigh Hunt said:

Yep - I think anyone watching me try a Street Machine last year outside Bike Fix would have had a
laugh - I couldn't do anything but cycle in a straight(ish) line.

My first try had the benefit of a couple of years prior experience on the Crystal so I did okay, but
I've seen Ben push-start quite a few people. My first go on a lowracer was fairly comical: I'd more
or less got the hang of the tiller steering (well, enough not to spontaneously crash!) but had to do
a sudden stop just after having started out from a junction and was in too high a gear for an easy
restart. Tried and failed twice and in the end just got off, picked it up and ran across the road
with it... Nul Points for style!

Quoted message said:

Then I tried a BikE, didn't think it looked anywhere near as good ('cos I'm vain like that!)

It doesn't look as good, but as far as functionality goes it's a very different beast. The BikeE
won't let you concentrate loaded weight in the middle of the bike, the riding position will catch
the wind much more and less weight goes on your back so for a long run it would be less comfy and
suffer more from loading. But for a pure "town bike" something like the BikeE should be fine (BikeE
are now defunct, but the HP Velotechnik Spirit has a similar configuration and looks very well
thought out).

Quoted message said:

Again, in answer to Leslie's original question, like Danny said, the being about 3 feet further
behind a Give Way than normal takes a bit of getting used to, but once you realise it's the same
in a car, you soon get used to it.

Yup. And for stuff like coming out between parked cars, you always have the option of standing
up while stationary with one foot clipped in, ready for a quick sit-down and getaway when a
space appears.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗